Lost in Translation

[Chest Rockwell]

Ideally it'd be the character that's racist. Something always made me think Tarantino was a racist because of some of the dialogue in particularly Reservoir Dogs. Something about it made it seem it was spilling out of his own opinions.

[pete]

Good point...I wouldn't stretch to call it a condescending attitude though. I saw those scenes as not as much an opinion of the culture but more of just showing the characters' reactions to the foreign environment. It's only a natural response for a foreigner to notice the quirks of the people that surround him, and I think Bill takes not of these things around Scarlett as a way of lightening the significant pressure they both felt being in a world completely extraneous of  their own. And the other scenes, such as the "Lip my stockings" scene I don't think point to a negative or bigoted viewpoint but rather show these quirks to further separate the characters from their environment and lessen their understanding of the place. But I guess my opinion is crap anyway since I've never experienced the feeling of being in a totally foreign place....but that's just what I felt.

yeah to separate the character from the enviroment, that's good intention and all, but it is at the expense of a living, breathing culture.

[pete]

If a character in a movie says the n-word...

Is the character or the filmmaker racist?

it really depends on what the film's about.  does the film glorify what the character does?  like the pulp fiction thing, QT was totally trying to show that he's "down" with the good black folks.  at the same time, he's actually naive enough to believe that "it's just a word" nonsense.

back to LIT for a moment, I don't want to make it seem like I'm some kinda pseudo-liberal knee-jerk reactionist, longing to be descriminated against so I can whine.  I really wanted to like the movie, but just couldn't handle the entire theater of harvard people roaring with laughter when Bill and Scarlett question a shabu shabu restaurant, asking the sushi chef is he serves black toes, bends over to say goodbye to the stripper...etc.  That's why I'm trying to deal with this on a personal level too, none of that "racialized other vs. the exotic gaze" academic bullshit.

EDIT: whoa whoa whoa, daddy just saw some of that kill bill vs. lost in translation debate.  WTF?  Both films are about fascination with the Japanese culture, with its pop culture to be precise.  One of them tries to show that he's "down" by pulling out all he knows about the culture and putting it on film, while the other shows it from a tourists-trapped-in-hotel kind of POV.  Both points of views, are RIDICULOUSLY white.  Now this is not a criticism, but to think that Kill Bill is somehow more valid because QT is paying "tributes" is very silly.  

For your information, Asian people (yes that includes our good Japanese friends) didn't take a shine in Kill Bill the way the Americans did.  It's like how Crouching Tiger was laughed at in Asian theaters.  Both these films offer extremely limited portrayals of a culture.  Am I saying foreigners can't make good movies about other cultures?  No.  But one has to know what he's talking about, what he's making.  That's why Spike Lee got all mad when he said Ali couldn't be directed by a white man, and then went on to direct Summer of Sam.  

On the other hand, I do love it when foreign cinematographers do American movies.

[Pas]

Is this debate really happening ?! Just to think Sofia Coppola would write something with a racist message is utterly stupid.

[pete]

it's not racism, it's ignorance (the two are vastly different in intentions but oftentimes come out the same).  on the same token, I think to overlook all the instances at belittling Japanese people and culture is pretty utterly stupid too.
that's the other thing with racism.  So many people's idea of racism is still trapped in the 40s with them KKKs and segregation and black face minstrel shows.

[molly]

it's hard to show all the truth about japanese, or any other nation, in a movie about two western people. the movie should be whole week long.

[Pubrick]

allow me to repeat myself.

this debate is a joke. i hope u all got ur victim-cry out of ur system, like godardian did when the God discussion derailed into butt sex.

let's try not to ruin a great thread again with stupid comments, ok ppl?

now can sumone please for the love of god give me a well-lit butt shot?????????

[pete]

it doesn't have to show the truth on Japanese people, but it should at least bear a deeper understanding about the culture (than just how WACKY! they are).  Obviously this is not a requirement whatsoever, Sophia Coppola is free to make whatever the hell type of movie she wants to make, she'll just have to accept the criticism.

[Fernando]

now can sumone please for the love of god give me a well-lit butt shot?????????

You could ask Mac or Mog, they did something for me.

[pete]

allow me to repeat myself.

ok.

[Redlum]

These aren't showing up to well but here's their directory:
http://host.deluxnetwork.com/~redlum/lit/

[Redlum]

Charlie Brown..

[godardian]

allow me to repeat myself.

this debate is a joke. i hope u all got ur victim-cry out of ur system, like godardian did when the God discussion derailed into butt sex.

But that wasn't about movies and fictional representation, it was about people's real-life opinions/interpretations of things, so I took it a little more serious. And I don't think I was actually the one who steered the conversation down that road... I don't like that the two subjects are linked, but they are, through no control of my own. I could only comment on where I stand in relation to that discussion.

...just sayin', in my own defense. I don't think you'll too often catch me claiming that because someone says "faggot" in a movie and everyone gets a good laugh, that means it's going to turn the audience into homophobes. By the same token, I don't think that Lost in Translation claims to be anything bigger or more serious/political than it is. It could just as easily have been made about two Asian people lost in crazy, weird America; it's a human thing to feel the way our two protags feel when they're in an unfamiliar place/culture. I don't think anyone's being picked on or that there's any agenda...

[pete]

I think if they got caught in a crazy weird America (and there's a movie out called Comrade, Almost a Love Story about two Chinese people falling in love in America, well the last third of the movie anyways) it wouldn't be filled with as much condescension.  being ignorant doesn't really need much agenda.  But I don't even feel that passionate about the movie in either way, I posted because one kid said something and everyone just jumped on him.  I do agree with what he said to an extent, but I would never call the movie racist.  But as soon as I leaned towards his side, P started labeling me as self-victimizing and you got dragged in and stuff.  That's the one thing about talking race is there are a lot of knee jerks in this topic.

[godardian]

I've read criticisms of Alexander Payne's films, and films like Lost in America- films by Americans- saying they're supposedly "condescending," too, which I also don't buy. What I got from Lost in Translation was a sense of disoriented foreignness; I can't speak for other people, but I think what made me laugh was not "Oh, those nutty Japanese," but the actual culture clash, the feeling of personal discomfort on the part of this person (Murray) trying to cope in this place with really different customs. I really didn't find that the comedy was at the expense of anything so profound or generalized as race/culture.