Batman Begins

[matt35mm]

Yeah that police car flipping around was so stupid, the officers in it are obviously dead.

It's a movie.

which betrays its own logic.

Right. Logic must be obeyed.

key words: "its own".

movies hav their own logic. their own logic. own. their own internal logic. key words: "its own".

"own"ed.

[Brazoliange]

narratively, Bruce had already reconciled himself to not killing after the whole courthouse incident. If there was an opportunity for the filmmakers to let him to actually commit murder, that would have been it - obviously, they figured intent to kill was sufficient enough.

this didn't work for me -- he wasn't willing to kill a man who was a criminal - however he was willing to kill a flock of ninjas and blow up there compound.

He was willing.  Someone else killed him before he got to.

i don't recall this

He was at the courthouse at the hearing with a gun up his sleeve, and someone else shot him... right before Rachel took him down and showed him where Falconi was.

he never killed the ninjas... he just torched their base

[cowboykurtis]

narratively, Bruce had already reconciled himself to not killing after the whole courthouse incident. If there was an opportunity for the filmmakers to let him to actually commit murder, that would have been it - obviously, they figured intent to kill was sufficient enough.

this didn't work for me -- he wasn't willing to kill a man who was a criminal - however he was willing to kill a flock of ninjas and blow up there compound.

He was willing.  Someone else killed him before he got to.

i don't recall this

He was at the courthouse at the hearing with a gun up his sleeve, and someone else shot him... right before Rachel took him down and showed him where Falconi was.

he never killed the ninjas... he just torched their base

well, its clear now that his response was after not reading my post closely -  i was speaking about the beheading of the criminal that the ninjas had captive - i never once mentioned the incident at court.

and by torching their base, which resulted in a catastrophic explosion -  do you not think anyone was killed?

[Brazoliange]

I think some probably were, including 'Ra's Al Ghul'... but it was a few of them, or Gotham City. And he didn't deliberately kill them.

[Gloria]

This movie made me very, very happy.  The standout performance goes to Gary Oldman as Gordon...he was perfect.  Also, Cillian as Scarecrow was facinating...great casting.  I really like how Batman's history was shown.  The shot with the young Bruce looking over his slain parents was heartbreaking.  

As for the action sequences...some seemed excessive and edited way too quickly.  I forgave this, because everything else was so well done.  

SPOILER!
However, I was disappointed that Bruce revealed who he was to Rachel.  That didn't seem right...Batman is much more protective about his identity.  
END SPOILER!

I hope a better love interest comes along in the next movie (Talia played by Monica Belluci would rock...but seems unlikely).

[modage]

SPOILER!
However, I was disappointed that Bruce revealed who he was to Rachel.  That didn't seem right...Batman is much more protective about his identity.  
END SPOILER!.

good call.  WORST SUPERHERO MOVIE TREND EVER.

[A Matter Of Chance]

From IMDB:

Holmes Dropped from 'Batman' Sequel

Christian Bale, Michael Caine and Morgan Freeman have signed to star in a second Batman movie, but love interest Katie Holmes has been dropped. Movie bosses are thrilled with the response to Batman Begins - it took $46.9 million in its first weekend at the US box office - and have snapped up the film's stars for a sequel. Bale as Batman was the first to put pen to paper, followed by Caine as butler Alfred and Freeman as Bruce Wayne's business associate Lucius Fox. But Holmes won't reprise her role as district attorney Rachel Dawes - reportedly because Warner Bros is angry her engagement to Tom Cruise has stolen media attention away from the movie. A source tells Pagesix.Com, "Everyone is in agreement that the movie's strength is with Christian Bale, Michael Caine and Morgan Freeman." Adding of Holmes, "She won't be in the sequel... the next romantic interest will be a much stronger actress. Warner is happy that people are now focusing on who'll be playing the Joker rather than Katie and Tom."


---------

Rejoice!

[Brazoliange]

From IMDB:

Holmes Dropped from 'Batman' Sequel

Christian Bale, Michael Caine and Morgan Freeman have signed to star in a second Batman movie, but love interest Katie Holmes has been dropped. Movie bosses are thrilled with the response to Batman Begins - it took $46.9 million in its first weekend at the US box office - and have snapped up the film's stars for a sequel. Bale as Batman was the first to put pen to paper, followed by Caine as butler Alfred and Freeman as Bruce Wayne's business associate Lucius Fox. But Holmes won't reprise her role as district attorney Rachel Dawes - reportedly because Warner Bros is angry her engagement to Tom Cruise has stolen media attention away from the movie. A source tells Pagesix.Com, "Everyone is in agreement that the movie's strength is with Christian Bale, Michael Caine and Morgan Freeman." Adding of Holmes, "She won't be in the sequel... the next romantic interest will be a much stronger actress. Warner is happy that people are now focusing on who'll be playing the Joker rather than Katie and Tom."


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Rejoice!

Rejoice? I think not... this whole movie seemed to be about his humanity, and the loss of his only friend and the one nearest to his heart will have to have a VERY good explanation behind it...

[Gamblour.]

I would say Alfred is closer and nearer to his heart. If you ask me, Wayne and Dawes did not seem close at all in the film. Childhood friends who had grown apart. You could tell everytime Holmes stopped by, and she basically told him off at the end.

[cowboykurtis]

From IMDB:

Holmes Dropped from 'Batman' Sequel

Christian Bale, Michael Caine and Morgan Freeman have signed to star in a second Batman movie, but love interest Katie Holmes has been dropped. Movie bosses are thrilled with the response to Batman Begins - it took $46.9 million in its first weekend at the US box office - and have snapped up the film's stars for a sequel. Bale as Batman was the first to put pen to paper, followed by Caine as butler Alfred and Freeman as Bruce Wayne's business associate Lucius Fox. But Holmes won't reprise her role as district attorney Rachel Dawes - reportedly because Warner Bros is angry her engagement to Tom Cruise has stolen media attention away from the movie. A source tells Pagesix.Com, "Everyone is in agreement that the movie's strength is with Christian Bale, Michael Caine and Morgan Freeman." Adding of Holmes, "She won't be in the sequel... the next romantic interest will be a much stronger actress. Warner is happy that people are now focusing on who'll be playing the Joker rather than Katie and Tom."


---------

Rejoice!

Rejoice? I think not... this whole movie seemed to be about his humanity, and the loss of his only friend and the one nearest to his heart will have to have a VERY good explanation behind it...

We may have seen two different films.

This movie was not about his humanity, rather the LOSS of his humanity. The bat has taken over the person. When did he display on ounce of humanity once he was "batman". By the end of the film He and Katie are far from "best friends". I'd say they're estranged at best. She even vocalizes that his "batman" persona has overtaken the man - and the whole film pretty much drove this theme home, in my opinion. vengence overtook his humanity.

[B.C. Long]

This movie was not about his humanity, rather the LOSS of his humanity. The bat has taken over the person. When did he display on ounce of humanity once he was "batman". By the end of the film He and Katie are far from "best friends". I'd say they're estranged at best. She even vocalizes that his "batman" persona has overtaken the man - and the whole film pretty much drove this theme home, in my opinion. vengence overtook his humanity.

Did you miss the scene where he refuses to behead the man? Is that not showing humanity? He's trying to make Gotham a better place and refused to go along with Ra's to destroy the city. How is this not humane? If anything he started to lose his humanity when he decided he was going to kill Joe Chill. If vengence had overtaken the humanity he would of gone along with Ra's and taked out all his hatred on Gotham. I thought that was pretty straightforward.

[cowboykurtis]

This movie was not about his humanity, rather the LOSS of his humanity.  When did he display on ounce of humanity ONCE he was "batman".

Did you miss the scene where he refuses to behead the man? Is that not showing humanity?  If vengence had overtaken the humanity he would of gone along with Ra's and taked out all his hatred on Gotham. I thought that was pretty straightforward.

Regarding the beheading of the man - read what I wrote one more time - I thought that was pretty straightforward.

Regarding his hatred of Gotham - I never recall him expressing HATE for Gotham -

If hated gotham he WOULD have gone along with the plan and probably wouldn't bother trying to "save" it.

I believe his vengence was always about ridding the city of evil, so other's wouldn't go through what he did with losing his parents.

Humanity pertains to being part of a group, communicating and relating to those of that said group - humans.

Does he not say, I need to become MORE than human... Which he does. He becomes obsessed with his quest for vengence. The Bat overtakes the Human. The monster overtakes the Man (a monster with "good" intentions, but still a monster).

And to fully dedicate his life to vengence, to his quest, it means detatching/abandoning those who were closest to him (holmes and caine) - i.e. humans...i.e. loss of humanity.

[Brazoliange]

ugh.... no, no, no...  

he became more of a man in that he became a symbol that there needed be no fear of the evil and corrupt, because someone would be there to protect them and watch over them. the problem is that in a city so corrupt, not many can relate to him, not vice versa... he talks only with Gordon as Batman because noone else will believe in what he believes in, which is a city without fear as means of power. Falconi had impact on Bruce when he said "This is a world you'll never understand. And you always fear what you don't understand". He needs the people of Gotham to stop turning their backs on what's going on and actively try to clean the place up.

I'm going off on a tangent now, be back in a bit

[cowboykurtis]

he became a symbol.

the problem is that in a city so corrupt, not many can relate to him, not vice versa... he talks only with Gordon as Batman because noone else will believe in what he believes in

In becoming a "symbol", in dedicating his life, he has abandoned his "other" life. His "human" life. Gordon is not the only one who knows him as batman. Both Caine and Holmes do as well. And neither one of them seem too excited about what this obsession has done to Bruce Wayne - the human they new and cared for.

Of course gordon, "relates" to him - Batman will make his job easier. And he never new Bruce Wayne to begin with.

Don't you understand that Bruce Wayne in essence has died to make room for Batman. That was pretty much the new angle to this franchise.

Nevertheless, this conversation has become laborious, becuase it's very obviously that the word "humanity" is being viewed in a different regard from person to person.

[cowboykurtis]

ugh.... no, no, no...  

also this little zinger, made my opinion of you fall into the gutter - and it wasn't very high to begin with.

just had to get that off my chest.