elephant

Started by gjg 4 REEL, September 23, 2003, 01:45:14 PM

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SoNowThen

#240
May 10, 2004, 02:29:19 PM
To what a few people mentioned about the long tracking shots, and going way back to PTA saying PBH walked "like a motherfucker"... there's something about good presence that lends to a really unique and interesting-on-screen walk.

The popular guy's stride outside and through the hallways.

Benny's glide.

The dorky girl's hunched back, awkward-as-hell gallup.

Really, can you act those? There just so damn telling, in every possible good way. It's one of those things I've always hated, when I do a short, and you tell someone to walk from one end of the room to the other and maybe take their coat off, 1 out of every three actors does something with it, the other 2 are just so boring to watch, you hafta cut. But see, you could hold the nice long shot if you had someone with the interesting walk of the above mentioned people.
Those who say that the totalitarian state of the Soviet Union was not "real" Marxism also cannot admit that one simple feature of Marxism makes totalitarianism necessary:  the rejection of civil society. Since civil society is the sphere of private activity, its abolition and replacement by political society means that nothing private remains. That is already the essence of totalitarianism; and the moralistic practice of the trendy Left, which regards everything as political and sometimes reveals its hostility to free speech, does nothing to contradict this implication.

When those who hated capital and consumption (and Jews) in the 20th century murdered some hundred million people, and the poster children for the struggle against international capitalism and America are now fanatical Islamic terrorists, this puts recent enthusiasts in an awkward position. Most of them are too dense and shameless to appreciate it, and far too many are taken in by the moralistic and paternalistic rhetoric of the Left.

cine

#241
May 10, 2004, 02:34:45 PM
Quote from: SoNowThenthere's something about good presence that lends to a really unique and interesting-on-screen walk.

The popular guy's stride outside and through the hallways.

Benny's glide.

The dorky girl's hunched back, awkward-as-hell gallup.

Really, can you act those?
And while we're on the topic, how about Dustin Hoffman in Midnight Cowboy.. man, that walk he did.. really, can you act that?!

SoNowThen

#242
May 10, 2004, 02:46:59 PM
While that was massively over the top, it still worked for me. It was one of the few things in Midnight Cowboy that did...
Those who say that the totalitarian state of the Soviet Union was not "real" Marxism also cannot admit that one simple feature of Marxism makes totalitarianism necessary:  the rejection of civil society. Since civil society is the sphere of private activity, its abolition and replacement by political society means that nothing private remains. That is already the essence of totalitarianism; and the moralistic practice of the trendy Left, which regards everything as political and sometimes reveals its hostility to free speech, does nothing to contradict this implication.

When those who hated capital and consumption (and Jews) in the 20th century murdered some hundred million people, and the poster children for the struggle against international capitalism and America are now fanatical Islamic terrorists, this puts recent enthusiasts in an awkward position. Most of them are too dense and shameless to appreciate it, and far too many are taken in by the moralistic and paternalistic rhetoric of the Left.

El Duderino

#243
May 10, 2004, 05:36:17 PM
i thought the acting was good. elias reminds me too much of myself.
Did I just get cock-blocked by Bob Saget?

Jeremy Blackman

#244
May 10, 2004, 05:53:31 PM
Quote from: CinephileAnd while we're on the topic, how about Dustin Hoffman in Midnight Cowboy.. man, that walk he did.. really, can you act that?!
And how about Robin Williams and Nathan Lane John-Wayne-walking in The Birdcage?

SHAFTR

#245
May 10, 2004, 06:34:18 PM
Quote from: SoNowThenTo what a few people mentioned about the long tracking shots, and going way back to PTA saying PBH walked "like a motherfucker"... there's something about good presence that lends to a really unique and interesting-on-screen walk.

The popular guy's stride outside and through the hallways.

Benny's glide.

The dorky girl's hunched back, awkward-as-hell gallup.

Really, can you act those? There just so damn telling, in every possible good way. It's one of those things I've always hated, when I do a short, and you tell someone to walk from one end of the room to the other and maybe take their coat off, 1 out of every three actors does something with it, the other 2 are just so boring to watch, you hafta cut. But see, you could hold the nice long shot if you had someone with the interesting walk of the above mentioned people.

That reminds me of De Sica and how he casted the leads in Bicycle Thieves by the way they walked.
"Talking shit about a pretty sunset
Blanketing opinions that i'll probably regret soon"

bonanzataz

#246
May 10, 2004, 09:50:24 PM
after watching this movie i just feel like crying or something but i can't. i don't know. it struck a chord while still leaving me completely hollow and i can't put my finger on whether or not i liked it.i do think it's amazing that there is hardly any speaking and the characters are so well defined. you know who they're all about. pffffhaaaaaawringwringwring. ok. i've said my bit. continue with your discussion.
The corpses all hang headless and limp bodies with no surprises and the blood drains down like devil's rain we'll bathe tonight I want your skulls I need your skulls I want your skulls I need your skulls Demon I am and face I peel to see your skin turned inside out, 'cause gotta have you on my wall gotta have you on my wall, 'cause I want your skulls I need your skulls I want your skulls I need your skulls collect the heads of little girls and put 'em on my wall hack the heads off little girls and put 'em on my wall I want your skulls I need your skulls I want your skulls I need your skulls

Jeremy Blackman

#247
May 10, 2004, 11:05:43 PM
I've been reading through reviews of the movie, and all the negative ones say only one thing... It's pointless!...

Which made me realize that Elephant could be one of the most potent recent films to battle commercial simplification and sensationalization.

And this part of Ebert's review struck me:

Truffaut said it was hard to make an anti-war film because war was exciting even if you were against it. Van Sant has made an anti-violence film by draining violence of energy, purpose, glamor, reward and social context.

mutinyco

#248
May 10, 2004, 11:17:15 PM
There's one other thing: moral context.
"I believe in this, and it's been tested by research: he who fucks nuns will later join the church."

-St. Joe

Jeremy Blackman

#249
May 10, 2004, 11:29:03 PM
Quote from: mutinycoThere's one other thing: moral context.
Absolutely, and that's why this movie feels so... large.

Is this as close as we can get to objectivity?

Gold Trumpet

#250
May 12, 2004, 03:36:16 PM
Elephant is one of the most laughable descendents of the art of Antonioni that I've come across. Sure, the intention is there to provide the same moral outlook that refuses to simplify like American films, but Van Sant does simplify in his moral objectifications of people who go to High School today and for me, shows how far removed he is from the current life of the American high school student and how easy it is to apply stereotypes taken from newspapers and slab it on the screen.

The best part of Michelangelo Antonioni's films is that his vantage point of his characters felt so close and personal that, on top of his well thought out art, he was conveying experiences of life he not only personally felt once, but was maybe going through at the time. In the commentary for L'Avventura by Antonioni expert Gene Youngblood, he said Antonioni's worst moments came when he started making films that were more and more foreign to him, from Blow Up, a British film and finally, Zabriskie Point, an American film, (that also had many writers) he was relying too much on moments that instead of conveying the profoundly personal touch known for his characters, had too many scenes that stood out to symbolize larger things and the context of his unique closeness removed.

The same problem exists in Elephant. For much of the film, the film closely follows these kids but then makes the mistake to add many superficial characterizations within it them from the social girls vomiting in a bathroom to the kids who kill everyone being symbolized in scenes of getting picked on and the outside girl just shown in the context of her uncomfortability in the girls locker room. The point is that these aren't true, they usually are, but that they do little to show the depth of their personality and identity. With the variety of students profiled, it felt like Van Sant was going for the broad focus and just skimming the surface of the identity of the students that did little to get past everyone's else likely assumptions of who they are.

I actually took the offense of this film kind of personal. When I was in high school, a friend of mine went to prison just in his junior year for beating someone to death with a baseball bat. I kept wondering how Van Sant would have portrayed him in this film and with the film in mind, likely through a few scenes of trouble at home and the lack of focus that brought him. The shame is that this kid was actually really pleasant and had so many attributes and flaws that crossed over onto the problems of many others that those who knew him never blamed it on one thing. They didn't blame any thing about him for doing that. They just knew he was so much more than the little everyone expected of his troubled home and anger difficulty. Of course, in Van Sants overall perspective, he wouldn't just blame that situation. He doesn't come to neat conclusions in Elephant, but he does have the problem of superficially portraying his characters that comes with the worst of American films. Blah to this film and the idea it is insightful into anything.

SoNowThen

#251
May 12, 2004, 03:44:00 PM
Two things:

Taking fewer characters in greater detail and personal feelings would have shifted the focus from the story to the "character piece". That wouldn't have suited this movie at all. In fact, THAT would have been offensive.

Also, you can't get upset about the "superficial stereotypes", because every high school is made up of them. There's the Ugly Loner Girl, the Artsy Guy, the Jock With The Hot Girlfriend, etc. Face it, you can't make a high school movie without embracing this.
Those who say that the totalitarian state of the Soviet Union was not "real" Marxism also cannot admit that one simple feature of Marxism makes totalitarianism necessary:  the rejection of civil society. Since civil society is the sphere of private activity, its abolition and replacement by political society means that nothing private remains. That is already the essence of totalitarianism; and the moralistic practice of the trendy Left, which regards everything as political and sometimes reveals its hostility to free speech, does nothing to contradict this implication.

When those who hated capital and consumption (and Jews) in the 20th century murdered some hundred million people, and the poster children for the struggle against international capitalism and America are now fanatical Islamic terrorists, this puts recent enthusiasts in an awkward position. Most of them are too dense and shameless to appreciate it, and far too many are taken in by the moralistic and paternalistic rhetoric of the Left.

Gold Trumpet

#252
May 12, 2004, 04:15:19 PM
Quote from: SoNowThenTwo things:

Taking fewer characters in greater detail and personal feelings would have shifted the focus from the story to the "character piece". That wouldn't have suited this movie at all. In fact, THAT would have been offensive.

It wouldn't have to at all. It would have to just get away from the obvious characterization to sum up crowds of people. These characterizations, to answer your second point, I find to be stale and lame anyways. The film could have easily been about more characters without trying to make the obvious, bland points.

SoNowThen

#253
May 12, 2004, 04:20:07 PM
How can something be stale if it has occured, is occuring, and will continue to occur?

Also, I think the group (rather than an extremely individual approach) representation is one of the main things that contributed to that important objectivity JB was talking about.
Those who say that the totalitarian state of the Soviet Union was not "real" Marxism also cannot admit that one simple feature of Marxism makes totalitarianism necessary:  the rejection of civil society. Since civil society is the sphere of private activity, its abolition and replacement by political society means that nothing private remains. That is already the essence of totalitarianism; and the moralistic practice of the trendy Left, which regards everything as political and sometimes reveals its hostility to free speech, does nothing to contradict this implication.

When those who hated capital and consumption (and Jews) in the 20th century murdered some hundred million people, and the poster children for the struggle against international capitalism and America are now fanatical Islamic terrorists, this puts recent enthusiasts in an awkward position. Most of them are too dense and shameless to appreciate it, and far too many are taken in by the moralistic and paternalistic rhetoric of the Left.

Tictacbk

#254
May 12, 2004, 05:12:49 PM
Quote from: SoNowThen

Also, you can't get upset about the "superficial stereotypes", because every high school is made up of them. There's the Ugly Loner Girl, the Artsy Guy, the Jock With The Hot Girlfriend, etc. Face it, you can't make a high school movie without embracing this.


My highschool doesn't have a group of socialite girls who throw up together in the bathroom, nor does it have a quiet ugly loner girl, nor does it have a Jock/Hot girlfriend couple.  It does have some artsy people, but not one artsy guy.
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