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Game of Thrones (spoilers)

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polkablues

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Reply #780 on: May 13, 2019, 02:02:11 AM
I have no idea how Arya plays into this, but it seems unlikely that they'll have her emerge from the shadows again. I suppose she could wear Greyworm's face. Really though, for this finale to have maximum power, I feel like it has to be Jon.

Let's not make too little of the fact that the last image the episode leaves us with is Arya riding on a pale horse.
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Sleepless

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Reply #781 on: May 13, 2019, 09:19:49 AM
I liked the episode. I could nitpick, sure, but the faults were faults GOT has always had. Finally we get some significant deaths. I still wish that the battle against the NK had been more significant than it was, I think the whole "Scouring of the Shire" phase that's these final three episodes would have taken on a greater weight. But yeah, the show is continuing to do what it does best and worst, so at least it's consistent. The scenes with Arya on the ground as the city is destroyed around here were amazing. Like the very best of LOTR/Hobbit and Saving Private Ryan. There were a few moments where I legit thought she was a goner. Absolutely studding work. Was it just me, or did there seem to be some 9/11 references throughout? And hey, at least we could actually see everything this episode.

Other thoughts...

It was indeed a bit much. But I think she wants this victory to be so decisive, and she wants to be feared, and she wants this moment in history to never be forgotten.

Probably the best explanation. We all knew she was going to do what she did, but the timing of it was the surprise. She's the ultimate big bad now.

As a Cersei fan, this season has been really disappointing. She just hasn't had any great scenes and was absent two whole episodes. I was really hoping she'd get at least one more major victory before the inevitable, but it seems that was given over to Euron. Interestingly, it wasn't her reunion with Jamie or their shared death that really stood out to me, it was the part right before they reunited when she walked alone across the map room. Heavily reminiscent of her walk of shame, absolutely vulnerable, yet determined to keep her head up high.

All the talk of poor battle strategy had that on my mind going in, especially when they're all standing outside the gates staring down the queen's guard. That moment when the dragon blasts through the wall was at once wonderful and terrible; the overall outcome of the episode in a single beat.

The fight between the Hound and the Mountain looked really cheap. I guess they blew their budget on the Arya scenes. Not complaining, but still.

I haven't ready any of the books yet, but this season really makes me want to. Hopefully GRRM manages to complete the series before he dies, because I'd really like to see this whole story told better than I feel the show is managing to.
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Drenk

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Reply #782 on: May 13, 2019, 11:34:43 AM
Daenerys could have taken the throne and executed Jon and Tyrion. And then let Sansa/Bran/Arya *do* something. Jon has been such a dumbass that I don't want him to be the hero of anything.
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Drenk

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Reply #783 on: May 13, 2019, 01:43:03 PM
Wow, I see a lot crazy Dany stans—you know, those who act as if she's real— saying: Well, they were not really innocent people. Love is powerful would say one of the wives in Leaving Neverland.
Ascension.


©brad

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Reply #784 on: May 13, 2019, 02:12:06 PM
As a Cersei fan, this season has been really disappointing. She just hasn't had any great scenes and was absent two whole episodes. I was really hoping she'd get at least one more major victory before the inevitable, but it seems that was given over to Euron.

To me this is D&D's biggest blunder this season. You have in her one of the most captivating villains not just on the show but in TV period, and you give her absolutely nothing to do (and I'm not talking about the 2 episodes of this truncated season she wasn't even in.) No final sparring or showdown with Dany or anyone else, and as a result her death scene lacked heft. She deserved better. 

Turns out Game of Thrones and Veep were telling the same story all along: nobody who actually wants to rule should ever be allowed to.

Damn you, this is perfect.


WorldForgot

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Reply #785 on: May 13, 2019, 05:02:38 PM
Quote from: GRRM for Rolling Stone
The war that Tolkien wrote about was a war for the fate of civilization and the future of humanity, and that’s become the template. I’m not sure that it’s a good template, though. The Tolkien model led generations of fantasy writers to produce these endless series of dark lords and their evil minions who are all very ugly and wear black clothes. But the vast majority of wars throughout history are not like that. World War I is much more typical of the wars of history than World War II – the kind of war you look back afterward and say, “What the hell were we fighting for? Why did all these millions of people have to die? Was it really worth it to get rid of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, that we wiped out an entire generation, and tore up half the continent? Was the War of 1812 worth fighting? The Spanish-American War? What the hell were these people fighting for?
[...]
There are some people who read and want to believe in a world where the good guys win and the bad guys lose, and at the end they live happily ever after. That’s not the kind of fiction that I write. Tolkien was not that. The scouring of the Shire proved that. Frodo’s sadness – that was a bittersweet ending, which to my mind was far more powerful than the ending of Star Wars, where all the happy Ewoks are jumping around, and the ghosts of all the dead people appear, waving happily [laughs]. But I understand where the other people are coming from. There are a lot of books out there. Let everyone find the kind of book that speaks to them, and speaks to what they need emotionally.


Drenk

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Reply #786 on: May 13, 2019, 05:14:00 PM
What Daenerys did wasn't war. Even her father didn't burn cities once they had surrendered (#FireandBlood).
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Robyn

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Reply #787 on: May 13, 2019, 06:45:05 PM
During 7 season they made us take sides and root for different characters, and in the end, they threw this at our faces; just sheer and brutal terror, making us realise how meaningless it all was. It's a perfect ending for this show.


Lottery

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Reply #788 on: May 13, 2019, 09:07:42 PM
For some reason, I never considered this tale to be entirely nihilistic, despite all the horror that has occurred throughout. The next episode may (last time for me to make this mistake) have some sort of statement in response to all this.

Anyway, Dany's descent makes more sense (like a number of other plot points/character motivations) by including that one excised character.

MAJOR BOOK SPOILERS.
Spoiler: ShowHide
It's quite possible that the show suffered heavily by excising Aegon's plotline.
So potentially- Aegon arrives in Westeros. Steamrolls everyone and becomes king. Dany arrives and to her dismay Aegon is already there as a beloved king. And now she has a legitimate problem- the issue of her being some foreign tyrant is far more valid.

MAJOR BOOK SPOILERS.
Spoiler: ShowHide
I mean that's a pretty damn good reason for becoming unhinged. You spend your years aspiring to be the rightful Targ monarch, breaking chains and all that and then you find that there already is a beloved Targ monarch on the throne and you are considered that terrifying dragon lady with your horde of foreign barbarians (even after you help defeat the army of the dead). Makes way more sense.

And then Jon Snow is, of course, another added wrinkle to the story. 2 nephews with arguably better claims than you.


EDIT:

Also, I forgot to rage about the worthlessness of Euron and the stupidity of the beach fight. Euron's fate at the hands of Yara could have been a nice way to tie up the story of the Greyjoys.


Drenk

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Reply #789 on: May 13, 2019, 10:41:12 PM
As much as I'm disappointed by the show, its worst offense is to make me excited for the books again: I had made my peace with them never being released.  :doh:

SPOILERS DANCE WITH DRAGONS

Spoiler: ShowHide
Do you think that Aegon is an impostor? Also: one thing that the show forgot is that it used to really think about rulers...Daenerys is entitled. Aegon is supposed to be clever, raised like a future king but also like a "normal" person.
Ascension.


Lottery

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Reply #790 on: May 13, 2019, 11:05:08 PM
I'd really like to say we will get Winds in the next year or so. I know, a pretty foolish notion.

SPOILERS A DANCE WITH DRAGONS
Spoiler: ShowHide

There is a very good chance he is an imposter. But obviously, that's where the whole 'power resides where men believe it resides' comes in, it won't matter to anyone else (because they won't know) but it will matter to an increasingly skeptical Dany- imagine being upstaged by an imposter and then you might start going a bit nutso wondering 'am I an imposter?', 'is Jon Snow an imposter?'.
It would be remarkably tragic if Dany burns him and it turns out he was the real deal.

Dany and Jon have faced lots of trials which is supposed to indicate they are capable and arguably more suited for the role than Young Griff, who has been raised in a specific way but is yet to be tested. Winds will show if he is actually as capable as Varys intends him to be.

The more I think about it, it's kinda crazy how badly the writers messed up by not being able to implement him into the plot. In terms of cut material, this may have been their biggest mistake. He could still be a dead end at this stage, but him ending up as an important character  just makes so much sense considering the last two seasons.

Winds Spoilers.
In terms of proving himself, he's already taken Storm's End in the preview chapters which bodes well for him.



Drenk

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Reply #791 on: May 14, 2019, 10:07:55 AM
You know what? I hope that Daenery's losing her shit—as dumb as it is, ultimately, for her position—works for her. She's Queen and the other can't defeat her. They fail. The end. (It doesn't mean that I am rooting for her! Weirdly, I realized that I had never been rooting for anyone: the silliness of all these people claiming the throne at the same time seemed to be the point.)

To me, Arya deciding that, yep, she doesn't need to kill Cersei is as out of character as Sansa being glad that she's been raped because that's how women become strong or something. It wasn't even written. What The Hound said made no sense. She would have died? What? No. She'd become like The Hound? No. Her list would be empty. She would feel no relief but that's another story—and Cersei is about to die, anyway, why not kill her? That's been what motivated her through all the shit she's been through.
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Jeremy Blackman

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Reply #792 on: May 14, 2019, 11:10:28 AM
If I had to sum up my current feelings on the show in one sentence: At the end of the day, I deeply appreciate being challenged with morally grey characters, even if the characterization needs more time and nuance.

That said... among things I require next week, one is an explanation from Daenerys. Why did she need to murder every living civilian in the city? Why did she need to so thoroughly destroy her own capital? The duration of the massacre suggests there was either calculation or a hard and permanent turn, not a fit of rage. Curious what they'll give us.

Remember when people were worrying about this season being predictable? That's a distant memory now. I have no clue what happens next week. Even if my favorite theory is true, I have no certainty about how we get there. And it could be something completely different. I just hope it's sufficiently bananas—that is the primary thing I want out of this finale.
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polkablues

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Reply #793 on: May 14, 2019, 01:44:54 PM
At this point, I just hope all the people who are bitching about this last episode are still bitching when it’s all over, because my spite for them has nearly eclipsed my love of the show. Basically, if I had a dragon it would be strafing the Buzzfeed offices right now.
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Drenk

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Reply #794 on: May 14, 2019, 02:29:06 PM


That said... among things I require next week, one is an explanation from Daenerys. Why did she need to murder every living civilian in the city? Why did she need to so thoroughly destroy her own capital? The duration of the massacre suggests there was either calculation or a hard and permanent turn, not a fit of rage. Curious what they'll give us.


Quote
"I don’t think she decided ahead of time that she was going to do what she did,” Weiss says. “And then she sees the Red Keep, which is, to her, the home that her family built when they first came over to this country 300 years ago. It’s in that moment, on the walls of King’s Landing, when she’s looking at that symbol of everything that was taken from her, when she makes the decision to make this personal.”

I thought she would just burn the Red Keep and Cersei in that scene, yes. And that would make sense with that déclaration. We probably won't get much explanation next week. There was no premeditation.
Ascension.