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Game of Thrones (spoilers)

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Drenk

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Reply #765 on: May 12, 2019, 09:23:25 PM
It looked absolutely spectacular.

(Of course, Daenerys deciding to burn her city— especially after they've surrendered—is extremely dumb: I thought she would snap, but not after winning, you know. Anyway, if you imagine that they did the narrative work beforehand: the execution was great. I could nitpick some things they forced into the episode, but once again: all I ask is to be entertained and I was—a lot—by this episode.)

EDIT: Big fans of the show are being disappointed by the Daenerys twist, and I entirely get that it's not earned: it might be brutal if you've not made your peace with it...I totally had a "COME ON ARE YOU KIDDING ME" moment even though I knew it was coming, so if it's taking you by surprise...It looks silly that Emilia Clarke switches to the "I'm insane" acting—but she looks good doing it, they definitely should have...worked toward that in season 5 or 6...

I also had made peace with the fact that they decided that Jaime is just soooo in love with Cersei. That they even forgot that Brienne was a knight is insulting, though. They just needed her to fuck?

Another dumb thing: yes, that's why you can't shoot a dragon in the sky with these things. The scene from last week is even more stupid. Once again: it looked great in this episode. When it's an actual scene, you know...
Ascension.


Robyn

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Reply #766 on: May 12, 2019, 09:27:11 PM
I'm devastated. That was awful (in a red wedding type of way)

Holy fuck

edit: I need some time to process that. I knew it would happen, but I didn't expect to feel this bad about it.


Robyn

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Reply #767 on: May 12, 2019, 09:47:12 PM
Ok, some random thoughts anyway, because I can't sleep:

-I actually sympathised with Cersei during her final moments. What the hell?
-So the Hound saying "We can't defeat the dead" was foreshadowing Cleganebowl. The whole scene felt a bit weird, but I think I liked it?
-Euron's death was a fitting end to his arc... just awful in every way.
-I didn't like how Jamie was captured just so he could get a final moment with Tyrion, but I understand it.
-Everything else was good. It made me feel things I didn't expect at all.
-Once again, watching Dany (one of my favorites since the beginning) do that made me feel so fucking bad
-I don't think I'll rewatch this episode in a while...


Fernando

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Reply #768 on: May 12, 2019, 09:53:37 PM
Unfortunately, right now I'm with the disappointed crowd, she went crazy in like two and a half episodes, there was no build up to take that path although I'll say this, she was betrayed by everyone around her so maybe I need to take more time to think about it.

I finally liked Tyrion, he freeing Jaime had to be a plan he shared with Daenerys right?


Before the episode I wondered if there was anything to do for Sansa, I guess right now she will make sure that everyone knows who Jon is and so I wonder if Dany will want to kill her for that, if that's what happens.


You know, the more I think about it the more I appreciate the episode.


Fernando

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Reply #769 on: May 12, 2019, 09:58:24 PM
It looked absolutely spectacular.

Yes, there's a shot of Tyrion from behind when he sees the city in ruins that is amazing.


Drenk

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Reply #770 on: May 12, 2019, 09:59:10 PM
Jaime being captured is another example of a character being dumb because it's convenient for the writers. Hard not to think about Bronn, too.

I didn't understand why Arya didn't kill Cersei. Literally. That was just a way for the writers to have their Jaime/Cersei death scene. Arya has as many reasons to not quicky Cersei as Daenerys has to murder everyone after winning the war.

About Tyrion: Daenerys doesn't know. He's worried about her killing him. I loved the scene. But now she won't kill him? Anyway, I can't imagine him staying Hand of the Queen. They'll do in an episode what should be a season: the war against Daenerys...

Next week:

Jon Snow: "She's not my queen. I don't love her. I want the throne."
Ascension.


polkablues

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Reply #771 on: May 12, 2019, 10:05:21 PM
Unfortunately, right now I'm with the disappointed crowd, she went crazy in like two and a half episodes, there was no build up to take that path although I'll say this, she was betrayed by everyone around her so maybe I need to take more time to think about it.

I fundamentally disagree with this. Remember her reaction to Drogo killing her brother? This has ALWAYS been an inherent aspect of her character, it just took a specific confluence of events for it to fully emerge.
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Drenk

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Reply #772 on: May 12, 2019, 10:08:55 PM
To go *that¨* crazy, though, doesn't make sense. Even the Daenerys of the book who's more selfish and impulsive wouldn't have made that decision. She's been ruthless. Never batshit crazy.

The show did in its clumsy way worked toward that ending, but JB wasn't wrong to think it wouldn't happen: they managed to make it incoherent, too. That tweets sums it up:

"Turns out that having twenty identical scenes where Tyrion goes “please don’t commit dragon war crimes” and Dany replies “hmm maybe” in different tones is not character development"
Ascension.


Jeremy Blackman

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Reply #773 on: May 12, 2019, 11:35:29 PM
This might end up being the most legendary subversion of expectations in TV history. People will hate this episode, they'll be devastated by what they're seeing, but I think this show and GRRM's story are all the more admirably audacious because of it. They gave us a conqueror to root for, and the conqueror did what conquerors do. That seems squarely in line with GRRM's worldview. All of us who rooted for Daenerys (until quite recently!) have some soul-searching to do. Heck, I was cheering even as she attacked King's Landing in this very episode. I think this gut-punch is absolutely perfect for Game of Thrones. The real world invaded our fantasy story with all its brutal consequences.

We've been viewing Daenerys with rose-colored glasses since the very beginning. Like all great villains, she sees herself as the hero, she has good in her, and she has reasons. But Daenerys is basically a fire god who's been obsessed with avenging the Targaryens since she was old enough to have such thoughts. Those passionate speeches about what was taken from her family were not put-ons—she believes that stuff to her core.

Was it a bit much? Yeah, it was a bit much. But that feels entirely on-brand.

Here's the scene that polka referenced, which they also highlight in the post-show interview:





"Hunger is the purest sin"


Jeremy Blackman

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Reply #774 on: May 13, 2019, 12:01:59 AM
Turns out the valonquar prophecy was pretty much true! And a whole lot of other foreshadowing:

How Game of Thrones Served up the Perfect Twist on an Old Book Prophecy



This is quite instructive (from Season 2):

"Hunger is the purest sin"


polkablues

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Reply #775 on: May 13, 2019, 12:08:07 AM
Turns out Game of Thrones and Veep were telling the same story all along: nobody who actually wants to rule should ever be allowed to.
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Drenk

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Reply #776 on: May 13, 2019, 12:18:56 AM
It's complicated because in the books—so, in these clips adapted from the books—Daenerys is the character that burns King's Landing by pure spite, but the show in seasons 5 and 6 transformed her into a Good Compassionate Spirit who Cares about the People, and then in season 7 and 8 they gave clues for this "twist" but they never went far enough: when Daenerys is ruthless it's because she's a conqueror, yes, she kills her enemies. But she's conquered in this episode when she decides to murder her people and destroy the legacy of her family by burning these towers.

This is definitely a weird situation. I can even imagine her saying next episode: "Sorry. Blood rushed to my head" since she was saying a few scenes earlier that mercy was their strength and that she wanted to get rid of tyrans—that's not a character deciding naturally that, for whatever reason, she has to burn everything, but a mess. Just a woman losing her mind.

Having Tyrion and Jon being morons doesn't help, too. What did Jon say this season except "I love you/She's my queen/and the new one: I don't want the throne"? Why does he love her that much, by the way?
Ascension.


Jeremy Blackman

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Reply #777 on: May 13, 2019, 01:06:43 AM
It's complicated because in the books—so, in these clips adapted from the books—Daenerys is the character that burns King's Landing by pure spite, but the show in seasons 5 and 6 transformed her into a Good Compassionate Spirit who Cares about the People, and then in season 7 and 8 they gave clues for this "twist" but they never went far enough

I definitely sympathize with this point of view. But I think they played fair. I think having the love of the common folk was intoxicating for Daenerys. It was not her primary drive, to be clear, but it was a powerful intoxicant. Upon arriving in Westeros, that was just not a thing anymore. It was made abundantly clear to her that she could not win these people's hearts. I think she deeply believes in freeing slaves, but there are no slaves to free in Westeros. So she's left with her core drive: conquering for House Targaryen.

when Daenerys is ruthless it's because she's a conqueror, yes, she kills her enemies. But she's conquered in this episode when she decides to murder her people and destroy the legacy of her family by burning these towers.

It was indeed a bit much. But I think she wants this victory to be so decisive, and she wants to be feared, and she wants this moment in history to never be forgotten.

The opening scene with Daenerys berating Jaime rang just a bit false. Maybe it's being done as a political show, but she seems a little too sincere about things she doesn't really believe, as far as I know. Doesn't she actually believe Jaime was right to slay the mad king? Why does she cite her monstrous brother as a reference there? Daenerys has plenty of reason to distrust Jaime, of course, but I don't think that was expressed properly.

LOL. This is perfect. *chef's kiss*

It's almost like the mad king having gone mad was not Daenerys's primary concern.

In terms of predictions, think of it this way. How does one take down Daenerys, who has a loyal army of Unsullied and Dothraki... and a dragon? Solution: Bran wargs into the dragon and roasts the army. Jon, meanwhile, becomes the queenslayer.

(Who kills the dragon? Maybe Bronn!)

I have no idea how Arya plays into this, but it seems unlikely that they'll have her emerge from the shadows again. I suppose she could wear Greyworm's face. Really though, for this finale to have maximum power, I feel like it has to be Jon.
"Hunger is the purest sin"


Jeremy Blackman

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Reply #778 on: May 13, 2019, 01:25:06 AM
Here's a very thoughtful article from Joanna Robinson, arguing that the show put a premium on shock value by withholding some book clues about where Daenerys was headed (which speaks directly to Drenk's point).

Personally I don't mind what they did, but I understand people who do.

Why That Daenerys Turn Feels Like Such a Betrayal
Did the show put too much of a premium on shock?
"Hunger is the purest sin"


Lottery

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Reply #779 on: May 13, 2019, 01:51:51 AM
Well, shock has been their special weapon for the entirety of the show. They wouldn't not make use of it now.


I like the Qyburn scene in this one. That was amusingly quick.


Spoiler: ShowHide
On a sadder note, I may have been spoiled by a moron presenting leaks as their 'theories'. I would like to say 'surely not, there must be more than this' but it seems pretty consistent with this episode. And ultimately, these might just be the critical end points of the books.
So if you're going to read some moron's 'final theory' about the show before next week's finale, maybe don't.