21 Grams

Started by NEON MERCURY, May 09, 2003, 06:41:31 PM

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SoNowThen

#195
February 01, 2004, 02:08:57 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman
Quote from: SoNowThenDisjointed structure and elliptical editing count as style, I believe.
Why do people feel the need to separate style from substance?

:roll: I didn't exactly separate them. But if you wanna discuss cinema, you gotta choose a film grammer that has some clairification. I think it's fair to say that style is a part of substance, but they are not equal, nor the same. One can be contained in the other, but is not wholly that.

I think P's post (last page I believe) summed it up well. If you don't have the emotional reaction to those few special moments, you're not gonna like the film. That's very cool that some did get that reaction, I unfortunately did not.

Also, there's some films where style is meant to be pretty much ALL the substance (eg. DePalma, or to a certain extent the later Melville movies). I don't feel this is one such movie. It seems that the filmmakers were trying to invoke some feeling of spirituality that was definitely not reliant on the camera movement & cutting, but more on the actors and the situations. They may be related to one another, and aided by one another, but they are NOT the same, and if we're gonna have any kinda worthwhile discussions, then we have to have categories, call it separation if you must.
Those who say that the totalitarian state of the Soviet Union was not "real" Marxism also cannot admit that one simple feature of Marxism makes totalitarianism necessary:  the rejection of civil society. Since civil society is the sphere of private activity, its abolition and replacement by political society means that nothing private remains. That is already the essence of totalitarianism; and the moralistic practice of the trendy Left, which regards everything as political and sometimes reveals its hostility to free speech, does nothing to contradict this implication.

When those who hated capital and consumption (and Jews) in the 20th century murdered some hundred million people, and the poster children for the struggle against international capitalism and America are now fanatical Islamic terrorists, this puts recent enthusiasts in an awkward position. Most of them are too dense and shameless to appreciate it, and far too many are taken in by the moralistic and paternalistic rhetoric of the Left.

godardian

#196
February 01, 2004, 02:19:09 PM
Quote from: SoNowThen
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman
Quote from: SoNowThenDisjointed structure and elliptical editing count as style, I believe.
Why do people feel the need to separate style from substance?

:roll: I didn't exactly separate them. But if you wanna discuss cinema, you gotta choose a film grammer that has some clairification. I think it's fair to say that style is a part of substance, but they are not equal, nor the same. One can be contained in the other, but is not wholly that.

I think P's post (last page I believe) summed it up well. If you don't have the emotional reaction to those few special moments, you're not gonna like the film. That's very cool that some did get that reaction, I unfortunately did not.

Also, there's some films where style is meant to be pretty much ALL the substance (eg. DePalma, or to a certain extent the later Melville movies). I don't feel this is one such movie. It seems that the filmmakers were trying to invoke some feeling of spirituality that was definitely not reliant on the camera movement & cutting, but more on the actors and the situations. They may be related to one another, and aided by one another, but they are NOT the same, and if we're gonna have any kinda worthwhile discussions, then we have to have categories, call it separation if you must.

A good way to look at it is that you might be able to isolate them for the purposes of discussion, but you couldn't have one without the other (the same way we discussed "signifiers" and "signifieds," but we couldn't really have either without a sign). A film must always have a "style" and must always have a "content." I think the lines are usually pretty promiscuously blurred, myself, so I do try to avoid speaking of them as discrete bits. I will say that I felt all the creative choices made by the artists involved with 21 Grams seemed exactly right, whether they were from intuition or really good planning (or, most likely, a combination of both).
""Money doesn't come into it. It never has. I do what I do because it's all that I am." - Morrissey

"Lacan stressed more and more in his work the power and organizing principle of the symbolic, understood as the networks, social, cultural, and linguistic, into which a child is born. These precede the birth of a child, which is why Lacan can say that language is there from before the actual moment of birth. It is there in the social structures which are at play in the family and, of course, in the ideals, goals, and histories of the parents. This world of language can hardly be grasped by the newborn and yet it will act on the whole of the child's existence."

Stay informed on protecting your freedom of speech and civil rights.

Jeremy Blackman

#197
February 01, 2004, 10:51:43 PM
Quote from: godardianbut you couldn't have one without the other (the same way we discussed "signifiers" and "signifieds," but we couldn't really have either without a sign).
Mmmm... quote some Derrida for me...

godardian

#198
February 01, 2004, 11:14:59 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman
Quote from: godardianbut you couldn't have one without the other (the same way we discussed "signifiers" and "signifieds," but we couldn't really have either without a sign).
Mmmm... quote some Derrida for me...

I'll try to slip some in, but Barthes is more my man. I'm not that "intellectual!"  :wink:
""Money doesn't come into it. It never has. I do what I do because it's all that I am." - Morrissey

"Lacan stressed more and more in his work the power and organizing principle of the symbolic, understood as the networks, social, cultural, and linguistic, into which a child is born. These precede the birth of a child, which is why Lacan can say that language is there from before the actual moment of birth. It is there in the social structures which are at play in the family and, of course, in the ideals, goals, and histories of the parents. This world of language can hardly be grasped by the newborn and yet it will act on the whole of the child's existence."

Stay informed on protecting your freedom of speech and civil rights.

picolas

#199
February 04, 2004, 10:20:14 PM
holyshitijustreversedthetrailermusicanditsoundsEXACTLYTHESAMEBACKWARDSOMG

NEON MERCURY

#200
February 05, 2004, 10:33:05 PM
Quote from: Pit's his first english movie, give him a break!  :(

u can tell from the awkward phasing of most lines "god even knows when a single hair on ur head moves".. total foreign english.

meanwhile i think that didn't matter cos of what he did with the editing. i'll make a short point here on sumthing i've been saying since the days of Mullholand Drive. everyone is so concerned with "piecing it together", that they forget what is being pieced together. the transcendant aspect of this film is what is not bound by structure or dialogue, and that's the IDEA that the title refers to, and the style echoes: the whole is more than the sum of its parts.

i mention mul drive cos that's another instance where ppl are just obsessed with "piecing it together" like that's the whole point. in that film it played a purpose because of its dream logic, but the content was much more heavy than whatever order it was placed in. that's how it is in 21 Grams. the transcendant moment is the crash, and is even presented so, u are made to think of the real world of the film by focusing through a "frozen moment".. the final shot fits with that idea.

those two shots are the key to the film, if u are not feeling anything at those points then u hav every right to say the film was a failure. that was the risk it took. following the ideas i proposed, i did feel sumthing, so i can't deny that there was something transcendent. it's not pretending to be the only movie ever to show emotion, but it is intending to be one of the few films that makes u think consciously about what it is to feel, where this feeling came from, and where it might go.

..all you 21 grams haters out there read this ...then read it again .....then one more time and let it soak into your thick heads.........especially the fact that its his FIRST ENGLISH LANGUAGE FILM.......that was a good read P...... 8)

Recce

#201
February 06, 2004, 06:01:45 PM
I have to admit, that scene where we see the husband and kids walk down the street and we stay on the gardner, then the car speeds by, still on the gardner, then you hear the tires screetching was pretty intense. That scene got me.
"The idea had been growing in my brain for some time: TRUE force. All the king's men
                        cannot put it back together again." (Travis Bickle, "Taxi Driver")

Pedro

#202
February 08, 2004, 08:06:57 PM
this movie was intense, beautiful, emotionally involving.

best film of 2003.

Chest Rockwell

#203
February 08, 2004, 08:45:15 PM
Quote from: Pedro the Wombatbest film of 2003.

Best Drama maybe...but let's not kid ourselves: Cabin Fever kicked 21 Grams's proverbial ass. DEE-ZAM.

billybrown

#204
February 08, 2004, 09:41:53 PM
Quote from: Chest Rockwell
Quote from: Pedro the Wombatbest film of 2003.

Best Drama maybe...but let's not kid ourselves: Cabin Fever kicked 21 Grams's proverbial ass. DEE-ZAM.

I'm guessing that was a joke Chest...

cron

#205
February 18, 2004, 04:21:50 AM
i saw this yesterday.  scene : naomi watts goes to the place where her family was killed.  in the street there's a BMW SUV,  a car like  Goya Toledo's character in amores perros,  and a man taking his dog for a walk.
context, context, context.

cron

#206
February 22, 2004, 09:42:49 AM
Just wait, don't buy the dvd .  and try the babel fish if you're curious.

Sale 21 Gramos en formato DVD




MÉXICO, DF, (SUN-AEE).Aunque una primera versión en DVD de la película "21 gramos" será estrenada en marzo próximo, Alejandro González Iñárritu y Universal Pictures trabajan en conjunto para sacar este año la edición especial de la cinta protagonizada por Sean Penn, Naomi Watts y Benicio del Toro.

Salvador Arango, director general de Universal Pictures en México, entrevistado después de presentar la cinta animada "Sinbad" en formato casero, señaló que todavía no se definen bien los materiales que contendrá el disco doble del segundo largometraje de González Iñárritu.

Sin embargo, destacó que en el producto que será puesto a la venta justo después de la 76 entrega del Oscar, simplemente se buscará explotar la calidad del filme.

"Como la acabamos de estrenar, y la verdad lo que deseamos es adelantarnos a todos, el DVD de '21 gramos' que sacaremos en marzo será muy sencillo, porque después en el transcurso del año vamos a lanzar la edición especial, donde estamos trabajando con Alejandro González para que haga un diseño de lo que será esta producción", indicó.

"Todavía no definimos al 100%, pero deseamos que Alejandro nos haga un mensaje especial para México, que nos platique en el DVD de su experiencia de filmar en Hollywood; también deseamos que Guillermo Arriaga (guionista) nos hable de la película y de cómo se siente ahora que su trabajo ha sido comprado en EU", señaló Arango.

El ejecutivo de Universal Pictures México agregó que la compañía quiere dar al público la visión que figuras como el escritor y el también director del cortometraje "Detrás del dinero" tienen sobre la internacionalización, ya que "puede ser muy glamuroso estar en Hollywood, pero no necesariamente todos lo van a conseguir o nadie sabe qué se debe hacer para ello".

Además del lanzamiento en DVD de "21 gramos", la transnacional tiene para el 2004 el estreno en las salas y también en formato casero de "Fantasías", cinta dirigida por Jorge Araujo, protagonizada por Luis Felipe Tovar, Mónica Dionne, Manuel Ojeda y Alexis Ayala.

Arango señaló que la premier de la cinta, que será la primera mexicana que distribuya Universal Pictures, se prevé para el 23 de abril, en tanto que el lanzamiento en DVD se realizará a mediados de julio.
context, context, context.

modage

#208
February 22, 2004, 11:10:29 AM
Although one first version in DVD of the film "21 grams" will be released in next March, Alexander González Iñárritu and Universal Pictures works altogether to remove to this year the special edition from the tape carried out by Sean Penn, Naomi Watts and Benicio del Toro.  Salvador Arango, chief of a main directorate of Universal Pictures in Mexico, interviewed person after presenting/displaying the animated tape "Sinbad" in homemade format, indicated that still the materials are not defined well that the double disc of the second film of González Iñárritu will contain.  Nevertheless, he emphasized that in the product that will be put right on sale after the 76 it gives of the Oscar, simply will look for to operate the quality of films.  "As we finished it releasing, and the truth what we wished is to go ahead to all, the DVD of 21 grams?  that we will remove in March will be very simple, because later in the course of the year we are going to send the special edition, where we are working with Alexander González so that it makes a design of which will be this production ", it indicated.  "Still we did not define to the 100%, but we wished that Alexander does a special message to us for Mexico, that us platique in the DVD of its experience to film in Hollywood;  also we wished that Guillermo Arriaga (scriptwriter) speaks to us of the film and of how he feels now that its work has been bought in EU ", indicated Arango.  The executive of Universal Pictures Mexico added that the company wants to give to the public the vision that figures as the writer and also the director of the cortometraje "Behind the money" have on the internationalization, since "it can be very glamuroso to be in Hollywood, but not necessarily all they are going it to obtain or nobody knows what is due to do for it".  In addition to the launching in DVD of "21 grams", the transnational company also has for the 2004 opening in the rooms and in homemade format of "Fantasies", tape directed by Jorge Araujo, carried out by Luis Felipe Tovar, Mónica Dionne, Manuel Ojeda and Alexis Ayala.  Arango indicated that premier of tape, that will be the first Mexican that distributes Universal Pictures, is anticipated for the 23 of April, whereas the launching in DVD is made in the middle of July.
Christopher Nolan's directive was clear to everyone in the cast and crew: Use CGI only as a last resort.

Chest Rockwell

#209
February 22, 2004, 12:45:41 PM
What?
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