21 Grams

[ProgWRX]

i was being a bit exagerated of course, but i just found them to be grating. I guess I put myself too much in the place of Jack and Paul. I guess I feel too strongly about the decision of having or not having a child, and i believe that it has to be something that BOTH parents have to agree upon, and the whole thing with her having the abortion when they were separated and now wanting the child so badly just seemed incredibly selfish and it just rubbed me the wrong way.

[Jeremy Blackman]

I've been torturing myself the last few hours, after seeing this, wondering if it's better than City of God. I think it is.

It was emotional, but not swelling conflict/resolution emotional. It was numbing.

I liked how it was constructed like painful memories, shattered and broken, unwilling to resolve.

I see now what you're saying about Watts' performance, Godardian... She will win things for this, and it was great, but Mulholland Drive was better.

[RegularKarate]

FINALLY got to see this movie.

Most has, of course, been discussed.

As far as the question of City of God VS. 21 Grams... I think that for the first viewing, 21 Grams is better because of the maze you get to experience, but City of God will probably hold up just a little better for additional viewings.

I still think Alejandro González Iñárritu gets the gold for best new director though, I'm really looking forward to his future efforts.

[Gamblour.]

I see now what you're saying about Watts' performance, Godardian... She will win things for this, and it was great, but Mulholland Drive was better.

SPOILERS:



I disagree, only for one part of Watts' performance: when the doctor comes in and tells her that her whole family is dead...she makes this face, of horror, confusion, anger, disgust, repulsion, and I honestly nearly threw up when she did because I found it difficult to watch her become so distraught and destroyed by the news from the doctor. I think I instantly started crying, I don't think that's ever happened.

But yeah, finally saw this movie, didn't see it coming, the nonlinear structure, everything was so good. Reminded me of Traffic mixed with Atom Egoyan.

As far as the basic interactions in the movie, how Penn is saved by del Toro's actions and Watts' loss, how he benefits from someone else's misfortune in an unintentional way...did this remind anyone of another film? I keep getting the impression that another movie had a similar path characters moved through, but of course it must've been completely different than 21 grams.

[Jeremy Blackman]

BIG SWEATY SPOILERS

I disagree, only for one part of Watts' performance: when the doctor comes in and tells her that her whole family is dead...she makes this face, of horror, confusion, anger, disgust, repulsion, and I honestly nearly threw up when she did because I found it difficult to watch her become so distraught and destroyed by the news from the doctor. I think I instantly started crying, I don't think that's ever happened.

That was a really really great scene, and I can't remember a better death reaction scene. I didn't cry at all during the movie, only because it was so emotionally numbing and I was in awe of how great the whole thing was. Just like Magnolia.. I've never cried during that. It's deeper somehow.

But I'm just saying her Mulholland Drive performance is too thoroughly classic to be surpassed by this one.

how he benefits from someone else's misfortune in an unintentional way...did this remind anyone of another film? I keep getting the impression that another movie had a similar path characters moved through, but of course it must've been completely different than 21 grams.

The only thing I can think of is Live Flesh, but that's completely different. I just get the same feeling.

[Pwaybloe]

Clearly, these (21 Grams) women had every reason in the world to do the things they did, whether they were right or wrong (and in this movie, everyone, but everyone, is a little bit of both). That hardly qualifies them as bitches... hmmmph.

SPOILERS

Absolutley.  Mary has come back to Paul (after his many affairs) to reconcile their differences and take care of him while he's sick.  Marianne sticks with Jack through his troubles with the law and tries to keep the family together.  

These are the sympathetic characters in the movie, and I think Iñárritu would agree with me on this.

[ProgWRX]

Yes, but as i mentioned before, personally i found the way Mary acted towards their offspring/possible offspring was extremely selfish and competely prevented me from being sympathetic to her... Marianne was a different story though, in retrospect, i've changed my opinion toward her character..  not mary's though.

[thedog]

*spoilers*

I just saw it, I liked everything about it. I didn't like it more then Amores Perros, but still, it kept me interested and was solid throughout. Really, I only have one complaint. Or two, although the second complaint is related to the first complaint.

For one, I have no problem with non-linear storytelling, I thought it worked brilliantly in Amores Perros. But in this one, it seemed like Inarritu was just doing it for the sake of doing it. It was like he didn't have enough confidence in the story to tell it in sequence, so he told it out of sequence to distract people from it. Although I'm sure this wasn't the case, because it's a great story and he doesn't have anything to hide. It just seems pointless when the audience is doing all the work for you, when they don't particularly need to do any work. It's about as pointless as telling Taxi Driver (for instance) out of sequence.

I also think it hurt the story a lot more than it helped it. I pretty much knew the whole story after about an hour and fifteen minutes. Story-wise, the only reason to watch the extra 45 minutes was just to see how each of the incidents, that you already know are going to happen, actually play out - and to find out Naomi Watts' character is pregnant.

And okay... Maybe it's just me, maybe I come from the small group of people who think films are meant to be enjoyable, like most artforms in the world. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a total "feel good movie of the year" kind of guy. I believe most movies need a little sadness to connect some kind of emotion to the viewer. But jesus christ, I just don't see how someone can make a movie so depressing. It just makes the whole thing extremely unenjoyable. I mean I realize not all movies have to be completely happy. I can name a million great movies that have sad endings or depressing plots. One movie this year in which I loved was Mystic River, which, I know, wasn't a very happy movie either. But I found Mystic River to be a lot more enjoyable, because with movies like Mystic River, there's at least a chance that every thing's going to turn out okay, there's hope. I don't know if that's just because they are linear, but if you look at 21 Grams, it begins with scenes that aren't particularly heart-warming, and then within the first ten minutes it shows you parts of the end of the movie - which are also pretty fucking depressing, and then it asks you to enjoy the movie. But you can't, because you know everything you watch is just going to turn out for the worse. Me and a friend went into it cracking jokes and having fun, we walked out more depressed than we could ever imagine. I'm sorry, I just don't see the point of making a movie that just depresses most of the people who see it. No matter how nicely the movie is directed, no matter how great the actors are, no matter how great the writing is - creating 2 hours of solid depression just seems pointless.

Good movie, though.

[NEON MERCURY]

thedog ..i see your point but i lok at it like this ....

yeah it was depressing buy so was requiem.......its just "how" it s done is what make it ennjoyable........i can watch requiem a billion just for it s sheer brilliance in cinematography....and score ..and burnstein's acting .....

as wi th 21 grams i can watch it and "ennnjoy" if for the score/music ...and the acting is as solid as anthing i/we have ever seen......also other factors come to minnd.....


but kids which is depressing is comeplete garbage and has no redeeming qualities to it .unnless you want to show it to aspiring directors on how not to make a film......

[thedog]

Oh yeah, it's definitely one of the best movies I've seen in a while. But I think my biggest problem with it is the non-linear storytelling. I just think it really holds back the impact of the story and ruins any chance of hope. But that's it, really.

[godardian]

Yes, but as i mentioned before, personally i found the way Mary acted towards their offspring/possible offspring was extremely selfish and competely prevented me from being sympathetic to her... Marianne was a different story though, in retrospect, i've changed my opinion toward her character..  not mary's though.

It always kind of scares me when people moralize like this about characters in movie, especially movies like 21 Grams, where they're trying to get these people to behave like "real" people. Is this how you judge people in real life? Imagine how dicked around Mary felt by her husband... imagine the prospect of raising a child without the father, without that support. This burden of proof for this kind of judgmental approach lies solely with the viewer being judgmental, not with the characters in the film or the way they're depicted, even, unless the film or performance is a really bad one. Most good films aren't little moral popularity contests between the characters, "Oh, I like him- oh, I don't like him, like her, don't like her." That just seems silly to me. Even Jimmy Gator, despite his wrongdoing finally being irredeemable, was not made out to be some MONSTER, but rather proof that even "likeable" people can do monstrous, unforgivable things.

[godardian]

Maybe it's just me, maybe I come from the small group of people who think films are meant to be enjoyable, like most artforms in the world. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a total "feel good movie of the year" kind of guy. I believe most movies need a little sadness to connect some kind of emotion to the viewer. But jesus christ, I just don't see how someone can make a movie so depressing. It just makes the whole thing extremely unenjoyable. I mean I realize not all movies have to be completely happy. I can name a million great movies that have sad endings or depressing plots. One movie this year in which I loved was Mystic River, which, I know, wasn't a very happy movie either. But I found Mystic River to be a lot more enjoyable, because with movies like Mystic River, there's at least a chance that every thing's going to turn out okay, there's hope.

Ugh, I couldn't disagree more with this kind of approach to movies or art. See Ms. Watts's inarguable quote below for my feeling on this. And I absolutely don't think Mystic River lives up; it's very much like In the Bedroom, something nice and not bad but much, much, much safer and more ordinary than anyone's making it out to be. 21 Grams is something vastly more beautiful and resonant than Mystic River is.

I honestly didn't even think for a moment about the "non-linear" thing vs. the "linear" thing when I was watching the film. I don't think it makes much difference either way, except for adding a certain amount of tension (not with the "what" but with the "how"). This Rubiks-cube way of looking at and interpreting movies- as if they're all occurrence-based plot-puzzles to figure out- is extremely limited and inapplicable to many of the greatest films, 21 Grams included. It doesn't take into account the emotional tension and impact a film can have, even with a "predictable" "story" (quotation marks around both of those intentional).

[nix]

Ultimately, I thought the nonlinear structure was the one bruse in an otherwise amazing film. Obviously not because it was too difficult. I agree whole heartedly with Miss Watts' statement regarding that. For me it hurt the character development and my connection with each character. That's all.

For the record, I sympathized with each and every one of the main characters in this film. Boys AND girls.

[thedog]

People say, '21 Grams is such a difficult film.' To me, difficult is watching a bad film. That's depressing.

Well to me, that's only difficult, there's nothing depressing about that. At least I can laugh at how bad Die Another Day was. Depressing is watching a movie so real and so heartbreaking that it will make you unhappy. It's not really a bad thing, I imagine it would be hard to make a movie so strong it will actually make people depressed after they see it. But there was nothing difficult about 21 Grams, there was never a point where I wanted to walk out. It was just... depressing.

Ugh, I couldn't disagree more with this kind of approach to movies or art.

Sorry I didn't mean to offend anyone. Maybe it's a personal taste thing. I guess sometimes watching a well made movie can affect the way I feel for the time being. If that's a bad approach towards movies and art then I'm guilty as charged. In a case like 21 Grams, it made me depressed. I don't remember any movie ever making me depressed. And because of that, it made it difficult for me to actually enjoy it. Personally I just can't imagine making a movie so grim in tone that it will make some people depressed. But maybe that's why I'm not making movies...

Good movie, though.

[ProgWRX]

did you not see the word personally on my post ? When did I try to moralize "like that" ?  I simply stated that it was difficult for me personally to connect with her character, because of personal beliefs.  

It always kind of scares me when people moralize like this about characters in movie, especially movies like 21 Grams, where they're trying to get these people to behave like "real" people.

when the movie is obviously done in a way to present real characters with flaws, (like 21 grams) there is always going to be some characters that connect with some people, while others simply wont.  this is obviously not like a crappy rom-com with characters designed to delight everyone in their target audience, hence why people will judge the characters like people judge others in real life. It happens. People ARE judgemental of others, some act accordingly, others can look past it and dont.

Hypothetically, instead of Mary, my post could had been aimed at Jack Jordan's character, saying that i could not muster any sympathy for him because i felt he was blinded by religion and i have trouble tolerating  religious fanatics. Would that make any difference? No, i would just be stating a personal reason why a character could not connect with me.