The Passion Of The Christ

Started by MacGuffin, January 28, 2003, 01:49:48 AM

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metroshane

#420
March 01, 2004, 08:55:22 PM
Quoteinstead of a fictional film that is as realistic as Alice in Wonderland.

Interesting.  I mean, I know many people debate if Jesus was the son of God, you know, the Messiah...however, I can't think of one history account (religeous or secular) that ever question that the events happened.  It's pretty well known that there was a dude named Jesus, he taught the love of God, and he was crucified on a cross.  That's facts pardner.  And pilot?  Well again, all historical accounts pretty much say the same thing about him...he washed his hands of the whole account.

However, if you're eragant enough to not believe in any higher power...than perhaps you can dismiss history too.

8)
We live in an age that reads too much to be intelligent and thinks too much to be beautiful.

Jeremy Blackman

#421
March 01, 2004, 09:24:26 PM
There's also debate about whether Jesus really claimed he was the son of God or just a son of God (in that we are all sons and daughters of God).

I can also understand the anti-Semitism accusations. The Romans were blameless. And Pontius Pilate was an extremely likeable guy.

If the point of the movie is his human suffering, it's nothing to predicate a religion on. We might as well deify Iranian torture victims if we're going to obsess about blood and guts to the exclusion of spirituality.

Ghostboy

#422
March 01, 2004, 09:30:48 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman

If the point of the movie is his human suffering, it's nothing to predicate a religion on. .

Thus the whole contention over context, and lack thereof. You have to bring it in with you if you want to be moved in a religious way. I'd completely call that lazy filmmaking except that, again, the passion is the point of the movie, for better or worse.

I like GT's analysis of the subtitle issue...

Pubrick

#423
March 01, 2004, 10:06:13 PM
Quote from: metroshaneInteresting.  I mean, I know many people debate if Jesus was the son of God, you know, the Messiah...however, I can't think of one history account (religeous or secular) that ever question that the events happened.  It's pretty well known that there was a dude named Jesus, he taught the love of God, and he was crucified on a cross.  That's facts pardner.  And pilot?  Well again, all historical accounts pretty much say the same thing about him...he washed his hands of the whole account.

However, if you're eragant enough to not believe in any higher power...than perhaps you can dismiss history too.
that was totally uncalled for.

GT went on to justify his statement and wasn't arguing the reality of jesus but the supposed reality in which it was presented. also, agnostic means he's a good guy.

ps. i <3 JC.
under the paving stones.

Jeremy Blackman

#424
March 01, 2004, 10:26:11 PM
Quote from: GhostboyYou have to bring it in with you if you want to be moved in a religious way.
And I agree that it's a very personal movie. I don't want to be all snobbish at people who find spiritual meaning there, because I know there are personal reasons why I don't find any.

metroshane

#425
March 02, 2004, 11:56:59 AM
Quotethat was totally uncalled for

You're right and for that I apologize.  I think it's the cumulative ignorance that has gotten to me over the last couple of weeks...and when he called it a fictional movie...well I just went off.  So again, I'm sorry.
We live in an age that reads too much to be intelligent and thinks too much to be beautiful.

Ravi

#426
March 02, 2004, 03:21:59 PM
Quote from: Ghostboy
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman

If the point of the movie is his human suffering, it's nothing to predicate a religion on. .

Thus the whole contention over context, and lack thereof. You have to bring it in with you if you want to be moved in a religious way. I'd completely call that lazy filmmaking except that, again, the passion is the point of the movie, for better or worse.

So the film should be considered a magnification of the physical suffering of Christ rather than an all-encompassing presentation of his teachings, beliefs, etc.

SoNowThen

#427
March 02, 2004, 03:25:58 PM
As far as I heard (without seeing it yet) that was sorta the idea...
Those who say that the totalitarian state of the Soviet Union was not "real" Marxism also cannot admit that one simple feature of Marxism makes totalitarianism necessary:  the rejection of civil society. Since civil society is the sphere of private activity, its abolition and replacement by political society means that nothing private remains. That is already the essence of totalitarianism; and the moralistic practice of the trendy Left, which regards everything as political and sometimes reveals its hostility to free speech, does nothing to contradict this implication.

When those who hated capital and consumption (and Jews) in the 20th century murdered some hundred million people, and the poster children for the struggle against international capitalism and America are now fanatical Islamic terrorists, this puts recent enthusiasts in an awkward position. Most of them are too dense and shameless to appreciate it, and far too many are taken in by the moralistic and paternalistic rhetoric of the Left.

mom me

#428
March 02, 2004, 03:54:24 PM
Quote from: Jeremy BlackmanThere's also debate about whether Jesus really claimed he was the son of God or just a son of God (in that we are all sons and daughters of God).

I can also understand the anti-Semitism accusations. The Romans were blameless. And Pontius Pilate was an extremely likeable guy.

If the point of the movie is his human suffering, it's nothing to predicate a religion on. We might as well deify Iranian torture victims if we're going to obsess about blood and guts to the exclusion of spirituality.

"I am the way, the truth and the life...no man come to the Father except through me"

Strong words that regardless of what you believe negate the debate you refered to.  I am a believer.  I love Jesus.

Mom me
There are those who know and those who don't ;
You should have listened to your mom me!

SoNowThen

#429
March 02, 2004, 03:56:36 PM
:yabbse-thumbup:

Beautiful post.
Those who say that the totalitarian state of the Soviet Union was not "real" Marxism also cannot admit that one simple feature of Marxism makes totalitarianism necessary:  the rejection of civil society. Since civil society is the sphere of private activity, its abolition and replacement by political society means that nothing private remains. That is already the essence of totalitarianism; and the moralistic practice of the trendy Left, which regards everything as political and sometimes reveals its hostility to free speech, does nothing to contradict this implication.

When those who hated capital and consumption (and Jews) in the 20th century murdered some hundred million people, and the poster children for the struggle against international capitalism and America are now fanatical Islamic terrorists, this puts recent enthusiasts in an awkward position. Most of them are too dense and shameless to appreciate it, and far too many are taken in by the moralistic and paternalistic rhetoric of the Left.

mom me

#430
March 02, 2004, 03:57:45 PM
Quote from: metroshane
Quotethat was totally uncalled for

You're right and for that I apologize.  I think it's the cumulative ignorance that has gotten to me over the last couple of weeks...and when he called it a fictional movie...well I just went off.  So again, I'm sorry.

Apologies are fine and forgiveness is better but keep in mind he comared the story of Jesus to Alice in Wonderland and I am of the opinion that he owes us an apology or at least deserves a sitting down and talking to.  Jesus was a historical figure and his suffering is well documented.  Alice is a fictional character dreamed up by a funny man.

Mom me
There are those who know and those who don't ;
You should have listened to your mom me!

Ghostboy

#431
March 02, 2004, 04:11:35 PM
Quote from: mom me"I am the way, the truth and the life...no man come to the Father except through me"

Strong words that regardless of what you believe negate the debate you refered to.

How?

Jeremy Blackman

#432
March 02, 2004, 04:16:39 PM
Quote from: mom me"I am the way, the truth and the life...no man come to the Father except through me"

Strong words that regardless of what you believe negate the debate you refered to.
Then let's call it a debate about how much the Bible actually reflects Jesus' words.

SoNowThen

#433
March 02, 2004, 04:18:25 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman
Quote from: mom me"I am the way, the truth and the life...no man come to the Father except through me"

Strong words that regardless of what you believe negate the debate you refered to.
Then let's call it a debate about how much the Bible actually reflects Jesus' words.

"Actually reflects Jesus' words"... how do you mean, exactly?
Those who say that the totalitarian state of the Soviet Union was not "real" Marxism also cannot admit that one simple feature of Marxism makes totalitarianism necessary:  the rejection of civil society. Since civil society is the sphere of private activity, its abolition and replacement by political society means that nothing private remains. That is already the essence of totalitarianism; and the moralistic practice of the trendy Left, which regards everything as political and sometimes reveals its hostility to free speech, does nothing to contradict this implication.

When those who hated capital and consumption (and Jews) in the 20th century murdered some hundred million people, and the poster children for the struggle against international capitalism and America are now fanatical Islamic terrorists, this puts recent enthusiasts in an awkward position. Most of them are too dense and shameless to appreciate it, and far too many are taken in by the moralistic and paternalistic rhetoric of the Left.

godardian

#434
March 02, 2004, 04:18:54 PM
Quote from: Ghostboy
Quote from: mom me"I am the way, the truth and the life...no man come to the Father except through me"

Strong words that regardless of what you believe negate the debate you refered to.

How?

I'm scratching my head, too... those strong words have little to do with what JB was pointing out about the film's apparent focus/fixation.
""Money doesn't come into it. It never has. I do what I do because it's all that I am." - Morrissey

"Lacan stressed more and more in his work the power and organizing principle of the symbolic, understood as the networks, social, cultural, and linguistic, into which a child is born. These precede the birth of a child, which is why Lacan can say that language is there from before the actual moment of birth. It is there in the social structures which are at play in the family and, of course, in the ideals, goals, and histories of the parents. This world of language can hardly be grasped by the newborn and yet it will act on the whole of the child's existence."

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