I’m Thinking of Ending Things

[csage97]

That makes a lot sense, and actually helps me shed some light on my feelings about the movie too. I found the "fluid time" things trite too, but I suppose it works for me if you view it from Jake's perspective. Perhaps it is the point that the movie kind of beats you over the head with the mentioning of a simple concept of time, because this is how Jake understands it. He never got past rudimentary understandings and is projecting them onto his fantasy as something he wishes he could have engaged with but never got the chance. Perhaps I'm giving Kaufman/the book author too much credit, but this works for me whereas a lesser film would've pushed the simplistic time concept on the viewer from an omniscient narrative, i.e., the writer's/director's viewpoint, rather than from a character's. So the point of this aspect of the movie becomes that the concepts of time are not developed past anything elementary because the character never got the opportunity, in one way or another, to do such a thing.

That said, another gripe, actually, is that I didn't find the film particularly illuminating either, as you too didn't. Your perspective helped me make sense that I don't think it expanded well enough on its themes either, but mostly "presented" them (here's sadness, isolation, et cetera, and let's leave it at that, the story seems to say). And with the whole fantasy thing, the story did feel to be too much of a gimmick. The whole story being predicated on "this character is not real or is a part of a character's imagination" thing is tired to me by this point in film and narration and comes off as kind of sophomoric, especially for a novel.

By the way, jenkins, I decided to check out the old Synecdoche thread here because it's on my mind, and I do like your interpretation of it -- "Caden is obsessed with thinking about himself within this world. he doesn't like how things look and can't make them right, though we see him try ... what is there to find in one's misery? Kaufman explores this question as much as he can."

[jenkins]

i like how you're further convincing me the guy sucks

this is a healthy conversation and csage97 is doing a fine job and just before i keep going on and on about this and that i can full circle the conversation by saying that the concept of misery doesn't appeal to me as it once did. i think it's far easier to wallow in misery than not wallow in misery. i believe that reality basically begs you to feel miserable, and the upper hand the human mind offers is an ability to feel otherwise. so the rejection of that within this movie makes me do the thing in which i roll my eyes so far back they become lodged in their sockets and you can only see the white of my eyes now, the pupils have vanished

[Jeremy Blackman]

I'm with the general consensus on this. Not great. In fact I feel sort of vindicated for disliking Synecdoche.

(SPOILERS)

Listen, I really enjoyed many of the scenes. But it's like jenkins said. I have a nagging suspicion that the whole thing is just simple ideas dressed up as if they're incredible revelations that can only be fully understood through a narrative with enough surrealist scaffolding. And I feel very mismatched with Kaufman's perspective, which I think comes from a place of darkness and does not actually offer much insight.

I miss the Charlie Kaufman of Being John Malkovich and Adaptation. But I guess that was 20 years ago. There were some flashes of that person in this movie, but it ends up feeling profoundly tedious, and there's a joylessness that can't be escaped. Some ideas that should have been vital and moving (or at least interesting) fell flat in a way that did not seem intended. The dance sequence is a prime example for me; I cringed at the "wedding" part and just wanted to move on.

[Rooty Poots]

I miss the Charlie Kaufman of Being John Malkovich and Adaptation. But I guess that was 20 years ago.

It's really sad he seems to have decided he's done telling those kinds of stories. Those (as well as Eternal Sunshine) are perhaps all in my top ten. I loved them so much and they played a big role at the time in informing my burgeoning tastes in movies.

[jenkins]

you know, i mean, it's the same guy: he adapted a book but made it his own voice

i was in a "why would you say that?" situation but i still support people supporting this movie. on a different day i would think differently about this movie, and suddenly everything i've said so far would be missing the point. misery loves company is a philosophical statement that means misery loves being understood, and this movie deserves to be understood as much as any other

[csage97]

Sorry if I backed you into a conversation you didn't want to have (although I don't totally get this impression, but my apologies just in case). This is one of my ultimate struggles with Kaufman's work, that it seems to be concerned with the self, all its self-reflexivity, and psychological consciousness to a point that gets dangerously close to narcissism. Not to say it is narcissistic, but it seems we're getting past that point in popular artistic criticism and exploration. And there are works in the past, pre-90s, that were more socially concerned. I dunno.

In any case, I agree with a lot of views here. Ultimately, the movie comes off as if the source material is one of those popular psychological gimmick things. Not to say I didn't enjoy the movie, because I did, but that's different from thinking it's a great movie, which I'm not sure about and probably don't think it is. The story itself felt like Gone Girl to me, which was another movie I enjoyed watching but felt had a level of depth that was in the ballpark of vapid. I chalk this up to the source material, really, though I think Kaufman handled it well and more or less did his own thing.

[jenkins]

no you know everything is fine between us. i just didn't want to sound as if i was issuing the final statement about the movie. everybody should feel liberated to feel however they feel about a movie, is my basic belief

[WorldForgot]

This movie has me wanting Kaufman to adapt House of Leaves as a four or three ep mini series or something. Letz playfully frustrate and beguile even more.

[jenkins]

i would be so out the door, skip the whole bit. i don't want to be beguiled and frustrated i want to be relieved and lifted. i don't want to be assured i want to be assuaged. idk if life really is that complex. humans are simpler than they pretend to be, i think, while specifically discussing my own personal wants and needs

[wilberfan]

Man, this sounds like a "Must-Miss" for me... 

[pynchonikon]

Really liked the new Kaufman, better and more important than Anomalisa but not as groundbreaking as Synecdoche. Reminded me of Lynch's wet dreams, especially Lost Highway at its less nightmarish.
The Eternal Sunshine remains his best screenplay imo, where he found the perfect balance between his sensibilities and being appeal to a wide audience.

[jenkins]

to be young again. that's what i would sound like again

it's just an old man joke used in a general sense although it doesn't seem general, let me say it's not a direct statement but an inspired one

[Jeremy Blackman]

Reminded me of Lynch's wet dreams, especially Lost Highway at its less nightmarish.

I know what you mean. I don't mind surrealism, either. On paper I should like this.

Maybe it's that Lynch has a mysticism that appeals to me, but Kaufman wants to tell us about entropy and decay and hopelessness.

[Jeremy Blackman]

I find myself softening on this a bit after hearing Dana Stevens & guest discuss it in-depth:

https://slate.com/podcasts/spoiler-specials/2020/09/im-thinking-of-ending-things-spoiler

Still not a fan of Kaufman's bleakness, but what it's doing is kind of interesting.

SEVERE SPOILERS FOR THE MOVIE AND BOOK

I'm sure some of this is obvious, but I think it's worth going over some basic truths of the movie:

The whole thing is a daydream of the janitor, who could be seen as an older version of Jake, or Jake is a younger version of him. The "young woman" is his fantasy girlfriend. Her identity shifts as his proclivities shift. She's always reading, embodying, or flat-out reciting things that he's interested in.

I do like how that interpretation colors their eventual meeting; he's overwhelmed to meet the actual physical embodiment of her.

Basic narrative things (the story of how they met, for example) also shift based on the media the janitor takes in (the Zemeckis movie). He can be seen as a writer who's fiddling around with story ideas as he goes about his menial job.

The title, of course, is actually about suicide. In the movie, the janitor appears to choose to freeze to death in his truck. In the book, apparently he cuts his throat.

[jenkins]

i was like oh cool oh cool up until suicide. look, irl suicide is a complex topic with many angles. irl one should always be able to understand suicide. as for narratives, there's no cheaper ending than suicide. there's no easier perspective than suicide

so it doesn't help but hurt the movie, for me. Je t'aime, je t'aime is the only narrative i can think of that accurately conveys a suicidal sense of being, although i suspect i'm forgetting other movies that also do. in the overall sense it's a bad narrative move imo