Breaking Bad

[Jeremy Blackman]

He set out to help those he had harmed (as much as was still possible), and the universe gave him his mojo back long enough to do it. That seems utterly consistent with the moral philosophy of the show as I understand it.

You're invoking altruism? I see maybe one item on my list that was motivated/initiated by altruism... his visit to Skyler, which is colored by his personal desire to attain more pleasant goodbyes, which he probably doesn't deserve. (He could just leave his family alone.) Walt duplicitously laundering money to his family when they clearly don't want his drug money is also a bit sketchy (though I would advise them to take the money), and it's colored by his desire to justify his original decision to break bad. ("It can't have all been for nothing!")

The good that comes from killing the Nazis is mostly accidental... side effects of a plan he already had in mind. He was raging about taking revenge on them at the beginning of Granite State.

Saying "he set out to help those he had harmed" is an ambitious claim at this point.

[modage]

What do think they could have done to punish Walt?

The 3 things that would have really punished Walt: his family, his money or his legacy as Heisenberg.

He didn't really lose any of those things. His family mostly hates him (though Skyler was still okay with letting him have his last words) but they're all still ALIVE. (The misery and struggles they'll face in his absence isn't really on his mind since he thinks the money is what he owes them, not their lives back.) His money goes to his son (who doesn't want it) and his legacy as Heisenberg is in tact (blue meth stops being made).

Yeah, I feel like the goalposts have moved significantly on what constitutes a victory for this character.

The goal posts have moved significantly since the beginning of the series (think of all the awful things he's done in the last few seasons) and that's kind of the point. The Walt in Season 1 would've been devastated by this outcome, but Walt of Season 5.2 just isn't. That's why considering this ending as a fitting punishment for his character just doesn't work.


The one thing I do wonder about a lot is if I would have been content with this finale had I not been such an obsessive fan. If I hadn't listened to the podcasts, and read the interviews and read the recaps (and written the recaps), if it would've seemed like a completely appropriate ending and not so out of place with where I thought they were heading?

[Pubrick]

The one thing I do wonder about a lot is if I would have been content with this finale had I not been such an obsessive fan. If I hadn't listened to the podcasts, and read the interviews and read the recaps (and written the recaps), if it would've seemed like a completely appropriate ending and not so out of place with where I thought they were heading?

that's exactly what i'm getting as the deciding factor between the different reactions.

i feel like this finale was made to satisfy not so much the casual viewer, because they will take whatever they can get, and not the hardcore viewer, whom i consider yourself and JB to be, but rather the less discerning viewer. i don't want to insult anyone here and say they never really understood the show because that would be elitist, but there is really no way you can argue against the excellent points JB listed and the three main dissatisfactions you have pointed out.

the reason the ending is so unsatisfying is because it DOESN'T stand to scrutiny like the rest of the perfect show has. i think it simply struck the wrong note. every dramatic beat was hit strictly in a structural sense, but somewhere along the way they abandoned a lot of deeper truths about the characters.

walt's demise did not ring true in the way the show presented it. if it was a delusional moment for him, where he could be the only one who thought he was triumphant in any way, then it shouldn't have felt so triumphant for US. the reality of the wreckage he left behind should have been made more apparent so at least his efforts to correct them could have been revealed to be as futile as they were.

instead, everything he did worked out mechanically despite the thematic disconnect with what the show needed. the fucking song at the end is a clear indication of something hitting the wrong note. what the hell did that add to the scene that wasn't evident visually? at the risk of repeating myself (like we all are at this point), it's like they didn't want us to leave with any doubt that walt found peace and even happiness in those last moments.

he was as disconnected from the reality of his actions as the show writers seem to be from the reality of his character.

[modage]

Listening now to the Hollywood Prospectus podcast and they're bringing up some really good points too esp. regarding the Walt/Jesse relationship and how that was underserved by the final episodes.

http://www.grantland.com/blog/hollywood-prospectus/post/_/id/88524/hollywood-prospectus-podcast-the-breaking-bad-finale-homeland-and-masters-of-sex

[©brad]

Listening now to the Hollywood Prospectus podcast and they're bringing up some really good points too esp. regarding the Walt/Jesse relationship and how that was underserved by the final episodes.

This I can absolutely get behind. I feel it was a bummer that the writers decided to sideline Jesse for so much of these last 8 episodes. He spent too much time off-screen melting down and being tortured. It's why Walt and Jesse's final showdown didn't carry as much weight as it should have.

[©brad]

'Breaking Bad' Finale Analysis: Walt's Takeover Was Complete (But Hard To Buy And Unsatisfying)
Huffington Post

"Ultimately, "Breaking Bad" went from a show with an unsparing eye to a show that, at the very end, didn't really want to look.

As many have noted, the "Breaking Bad" finale wrapped up many plot points rather tidily -- so neatly that it felt like the universe was lining up to do Walt's bidding. And that was ... weird. The cool, rational point of view -- the earlier vision of Walt as a creature under a microscope, a lab subject "sprawling on a pin" -- wasn't on display here. That distanced, even jaundiced view of Walt felt like a thing of the past. That unstoppable con artist Walter White had taken control, and it felt as though "Breaking Bad" -- a show that interrogated and subverted the anti-hero myth for so long -- had started to root for him.

Creator Vince Gilligan and his writers used to observe this man with detachment, but after Walter White left that bar in "Granite State," he ran the table and the show. The finale was 96 percent pure Walter Hartwell White -- whatever he wanted, he got. So much for just deserts; by dictating the terms of his exit, Walt just got dessert.

Walt is certainly a seductive personality, and it must be hard to be merciless toward your story's lead character when you're about to leave him forever. But aren't those who tell the tale supposed to be at a certain remove from the characters? Knowing them so well, shouldn't they be less easily seduced?

Yet, right at the end, "Breaking Bad" ignored the cardinal rule of all drug-related enterprises: Don't get high on your own supply.

Contrast "Breaking Bad's" ending with that of "The Shield." I won't give that ending away, except to say that Vic Mackey, who had told himself he was simply trying to do good but had let his ego run amok, was denied everything he wanted most. The world, or fate, or whatever you want to call it, finally put obstacles in his path that he couldn't get over. The universe said, "No."

Not so for Walt. "Breaking Bad" blinked; it hesitated. Its desire to burnish and redeem Walt made the finale anti-climactic -- or rather, post-climactic. Why couldn't the events of "To'hajiilee" and "Ozymandias" -- a more powerful concluding arc, in my view -- be left as they were? Because that arc was too unsparing. It was too bleak.

Wait a minute, wasn't "unsparing and bleak" "Breaking Bad's" thing? Wasn't that what I was drawn to, almost in spite of myself?

I'm not saying that the show totally lacked compassion for everyone on screen, even Walt -- that was never the case. And I'm not saying the finale was a bad episode of television. It was just far less powerful than it could have been. And before you call for my head on a platter, I'll say that "Breaking Bad" still belongs in the pantheon of great TV shows.

But the finale's impact was blunted by its tendency to view Walt's actions not just as the right ones but as the necessary ones. This isn't about wishing retribution on Walt per se, it's about wanting him to live in a universe that's capable of biting back. It's the universe that he'd lived in for the five previous seasons (and, until "Felina," wasn't all that different from the reality we live in, too).

Walt got a sentimental ending. He got to go out on a win. Don't ask how he got his millions from the cabin, how he lucked into a car with the keys inside, how he traveled cross-country and flitted all over ABQ without being spotted, how he hooked up with Badger and Skinny Pete without being seen, how it was so easy for him to get into the Schwartz house (and get them to haul his money around), or how a man near death rigged up a machine gun with a device that surely figures in an alternate cut of a Patrick Swayze direct-to-video action movie. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain, he's experiencing a redemptive arc!

Real talk: "Breaking Bad" simply could not bring itself to lower the boom on Walt. The story got wrapped up and the plot was tidily concluded, but "Breaking Bad" lobbed the moral reckoning back in our laps. "You decide," it seemed to say. The show always allowed us the space to make our own assessment of Walt, and that is to be commended, but there was something evasive about the finale. Evasiveness from the most tough-minded show in recent memory? That didn't seem possible not so long ago.

In the end, the show whose uncompromising vision won me over -- me, a total sap who likes to cry and feel all the feelings -- backed away from the consequences and final judgment seemingly foretold in those early seasons. As I wrote in my review, for Walt, balancing the cosmic scales of karma would have involved going through an endgame that deprived him of control and power -- the two things he valued most. That didn't happen.

We can endlessly debate whether or not Walt got his comeuppance, and how much of a comeuppance he deserved. We will forever argue, I suspect, about whether that truthful admission to Skyler was more valuable than Fate serving Walt a plate of humble pie. The point is, to allow so much control -- and for the universe to acquiesce so meekly -- well, that doesn't feel like the show of "Full Measure" or "Box Cutter" or even "Ozymandias." Right at the end, "Breaking Bad" went with resolutions that were more cynical or more forgiving than I would have expected.

The show ended with a smiling Walt surrounded by the machinery and chemicals he loved. Jesse and Skyler let him exit their lives with few, if any, penalties, and almost everyone else was dead. The Greek chorus that commented on Walt's actions was silent or gone. The unsparing eye that had regarded his actions with unstinting clarity was replaced, in the end, by a camera that rose up into the heavens, regarding a peaceful Walt -- kindly, I think -- from on high.

The desire to pull punches is understandable; Lord knows, I have wrestled with how much disappointment to lob at a show I have loved with all the jittery fervor of a meth addict.
Just as the writers couldn't quite lower the boom on Walt, I find it difficult to lower the boom on "Breaking Bad." I still love the show and respect it, truly.

Maybe Walt got to me, too. Goddamn that guy."

[Pubrick]

yeah. that's what we just said, repeatedly.

there's lots of reviews saying the same thing.

should we post them all?

[©brad]

It seemed like a nice summation of the dissenters' argument and made some new points that no haven't been made here yet. I don't see what the problem is. I'm not flooding the thread with reviews.

[Pubrick]

i didn't really think it brought anything new to the table that hadn't already been well expressed by mod and JB. but ok, if it helps people understand the dissent a bit better.

Team Dissent!

this whole thing has made me think back to other shows i've loved and how i felt about their endings. it made me want to go back to the sopranos if only for being almost the complete opposite of this finale.. and the moral of that story felt more consistent, darker, more hard hitting. and of course the wire, even though the very last few minutes of it were kind of a hollywoodized token. i don't consider the latter statement a spoiler btw, that show could never truly end.

so assessing past finales.. they're really all mostly shit, now that i think of it. compared to what's come before, this was just good enough.

Team Good Enough!

[Jeremy Blackman]

I've been hearing comparisons to Lost's finale, which apparently people can just call a disappointment as if that's taken for granted now. That's something I've never understood, by the way. I recall crying like a baby at how beautiful and perfect it was.

[Mel]

Team Dissent!

Couldn't hold myself.

this whole thing has made me think back to other shows i've loved and how i felt about their endings. it made me want to go back to the sopranos if only for being almost the complete opposite of this finale.. and the moral of that story felt more consistent, darker, more hard hitting. and of course the wire, even though the very last few minutes of it were kind of a hollywoodized token. i don't consider the latter statement a spoiler btw, that show could never truly end.

so assessing past finales.. they're really all mostly shit, now that i think of it. compared to what's come before, this was just good enough.

Team Good Enough!

Personally I avoid falling into obsession with specific show. I often drop series after first-second season (including BB). Discovering characters for very first time is the most enjoying thing - later on they stay the same (very common thing). There are some well written shows, that didn't run long (Terriers from FX is such more recent example). You can also burn yourself, when show goes down (Lost anyone?). Overall I don't pay much attentions to finales, yet I get a lot of fun from seeing solid TV.

[Tictacbk]

Just good enough is exactly how I would describe this finale.  When I say I was satisfied I think what I mean is it didn't ruin the entire series, and it wasn't laughably bad.  I don't know if a show this good could ever live up to the high expectations people have  (David Chase seemed aware of this), but at least Br Ba didn't completely blow it.   

I feel like I need to go back and watch The Final 8 (or maybe even 16) with a critical eye now that I'm not watching it with my "just enjoying every last minute of Breaking Bad I have left" eye.  I think perhaps they tried to cram in too much stuff.  Like I said before, I think it's the M60 that fucked them.  Who could that ever have been meant for if not the Nazi's or some other bunch of bad guys we don't really care about? 

Thinking back, I wish it focused more on Walt V. Hank, Walt V. Jesse, and Walt V. Walt, and I wish Walt was punished more.

On a positive note, I think I'm finally over the fact that the entire series takes place over the course of just two years.

[Drenk]

Fuck. I had issues with the finale (the absence of Jesse) but I enjoyed Felina. It wasn't the finale I expected an yet it was not surprising. But I listened to the Podcast. And Giligan disappoints me...

I'll try to express my feelings, and if they add nothing new or are stupid or obvious I don't care. It's a forum, not a compilation of brightness. Utopia is out. Xixan In.

The Mr Chips to Scarface is a nice catchphrase for the ones with money but that's all; Walt would never become Scarface. He's not. He's not the one who knocks. He's the one scared of Gus. He's not Jesse James. He's the one who wants to be. That's fascinating; Walt can't become Scarface. He thinks his worlds can't collide. He wants to keep the life he had, with Skyler and Flynn and breakfasts. I can have dirty millions and a family, I provide and You are safe! Then Hank dies. I imagine his millions melting in a barrel. Maybe with a body inside.

Anyway, Hank dies. He's done in Felina; he doesn't lie to himself, and doesn't care about being "the man" anymore. And he  There's no pride in killing the nazis. They're crappy nazis. It's not Gus. Walt wins against crappy nazis. I would like to think that Giligan, like me, understand the lack of glory, but, again, the podcast...The M60 was a mistake. They thought he could be Scarface. And they needed the nazis for the M60. And fuck the nazis.

No pride and he can't have his family. Everything is gone. Who is Walt, now, then? He's The Cleaner. He's The Vacuum Cleaner and a Ghost. He makes things disappear. It comes from a weird obsession : loose-ends. Viewers (and I don't know who they are or if they exist, but the Viewers are important for Giligan) always discuss about loose-end when a show ends...But you shouldn't care about loose-ends or the Viewers because they may not even exist. I can understand the neat loose-ends killing spree because Walt became The Vacuum Cleaner.

I love the scene with Gretchen and Eliott but it doesn't make sense. Walt still stands with the need to give the money. He succeeds. But we know that the money wasn't necessary, that the need to give money at the first place didn't matter. I didn't think Walt was wining when he gave his money. Then : the podcast. "Oh, but it couldn't be all for nothing!" I said that Giligan wasn't God, but he thought he was...It was for nothing because they can't be happy. They're ruined...He can't be The Vaccum Cleaner if he doesn't understand this point. He needed to melt his millions. And his meth lab. And himself.

I hate that they offered Todd to Jesse. Like a gift.

But I love the last scene; I love that Walt loves his meth lab more than his children or his wife. In 5A, he says that his empire is everything he has because Skyler hates him and the children are away. Yes, he loves Flynn and Holly, but look how fully happy he is with his lab. He doesn't want to spend time with Jr. He doesn't spend that much time with him during the series. Tony Soprano spends more time with his son! I like the song too. It's funny. I loved that they weren't scared to be ridiculous. It was a love song for Walt and his lab. His work. Am I the only one to think that Walt died high at the end? His face and position are weird...He loved his work, but he didn't care about meth. Only about the product.

(We have Walt with his lab and Jesse with his box. I love Jesse with his box. I wanted more Jesse. Walt didn't need to talk with Skyler, I wanted to see Skyler without Walter. The phone call would be the last memory of her husband. They both knew it was about but it was hard. Skyler would still love Walt, in a way...)

Walt is a psycho, happier with his lab than his family. I don't know why they felt the need to give the money. I don't think Walt is victorious. But Giligan wanted to give something to Walt (the possibility to let the money to Flynn, a goodbye with Skyler) and to Jesse (Todd and freedom), it feels weird...

The Podcast is evil.

Not clear but it's not...

[mogwai]

The saddest part with all of this is that soon the chatter in this thread will slowly die down. Shall we all buy the box set and start from scratch again, eh?

[Jeremy Blackman]

I suggested last page we should start making favorite episode lists. Shall we?