The Dark Knight

[Gold Trumpet]

Do you really argue me or agree with me? I pretty much agree with you while feeling what I originally said was accurate too. The Godzilla reference, I believe, is the best one. It speaks to a climate that was in Japan after the Atomic Bomb dropping. It doesn't specifically depict the situation, but reminds viewers of what kind of world they now live in.

A little of both.  Bush = Batman and Bin Laden = Joker is too specific, but that kind of parallel might be useful in discussing the political climate within the film.  Its certainly not a 1:1 correlation.

i was never saying the movie makes a direct, intentional comparison to bush v. bin laden. i was saying that the fact people can draw those parallels credibly means there's a deepness to the story and the relationships in the film beyond 'just talk'.

Yea, we agree. A little misunderstanding.

[Stefen]

So what was the point of Scarecrow being in this? It just made him look like a chump that nobody cares about.

[picolas]

i think that's pretty much it. the guy who was the second biggest threat in begins is easy prey now because batman has his shit together.

[pete]

I definitely noticed the familiar Bush words in this movie - but I don't think it's for idealistic purposes.  It is quite like the Matrix people fervently checking off all sorts of religions and philosophies, just so the audience thinks there's more depth.  Batman is the same way - it does go pretty dark with the characters, but the political stuff is quite shallow and seems like throwaways just so the audience will be convinced that they're watching something deeply relevant.

[bonanzataz]

this movie was fucking gaaaaay.

i want to believe that you guys know what you're talking about, but after reading this thread, i trust no one. a better movie must be opening up this summer. but what? i suppose the truth is out there. somewhere.

i was wrong. that movie sucked too.

[Jeremy Blackman]

- heath owns this movie. not a single other actor in the thing can hold a candle to him.
- there are moments in this where it took every fiber of my being not to just jump up and down in my seat and cheer. i almost felt like i was watching a concert at some parts. the audience was great.
- that being said, this is ADD filmmaking. the film never stops to take a breath. each scene felt rushed and truncated, often missing emotional beats they clearly wanted to hit. as a result it's a bit exhausting and definitely felt long.
- i felt some of the editing was pretty sloppy and confusing. characters would disappear and reappear without explanation (why didn't we see Dent and Rachel being abducted?) again, i wished the film just slowed down. i don't think there's more than 4 consecutive minutes without suspense-inducing score. 
- i thought bale was actually the weakest in this. while the words coming out of his mouth were layered and interesting, his portrayal was so one-dimensional. he has one look the entire film, and at times i found myself caring more/rooting for the joker.
- i like aaron eckhart, but his two-face felt forced, and when he shared the frame with joker, well, there was no contest. generally, two-face was not nearly as interesting or captivating as the joker.
- i would agree with the camp that found batman's voice way over-the-top. many of his lines got laughs (and not in the good way)
- i'm not really a motorcycle guy, but i want that motorcycle. like bad.

These were mostly the exact feelings I had.

I really wanted to love the movie. I ended up liking it, which was fine. Heath Ledger is the movie, as so many people have been saying, and I would gladly see it a few more times just for him. The kind of intense character creation he did here was something you only see from actors like Philip Seymour Hoffman. It was flawless.

I definitely think the biggest problem was the editing, and I don't think that opinion was influenced by the fact that the movie I saw just a couple days previous (Persepolis) was ruined by horrible editing (or simply the pacing of the script itself, who knows). Nothing really resonated with me outside of the Joker character, at least not in the same way, and certainly not on the same level.

When the movie tries to be important and political, I think it tends to trip over itself. The surveillance bit, for example, was just silly and poorly written. There's been so much journalism and analysis about these things that, if you're going to mention them at all, you really need to say something insightful. Especially if your audience is remotely familiar with political issues.

Here's another problem I had, just after seeing the film. Maybe it's just my ignorance of Batman character subtext or whatever, but the dark knight doesn't seem very dark. Gary Oldman pretty much turns to the camera seventeen times to tell us that Batman is an anti-hero. I mean really, what's dark about him, besides his costume? Christian Bale's performance certainly wasn't dark. What's anti-heroic? Batman behaves ethically for the most part (except for smacking around his prisoner, perhaps, and the aforementioned surveillance) and lives within his own little code. Sure, his interference brought about more crime. I got that message. Repeatedly. Batman gets it too, as he tells us. Repeatedly. And it's only a byproduct of his good intentions in the first place. Some one help me out here.

I haven't read most of this thread, so apologies if I repeated stuff.

[brockly]

nolan probably just wanted that title to stress how much darker his movies are. i think the ending justifies it, when batman becaomes 'the hero gotham needs'.

any political intentions in this movie went over my head. bringing the surveillance technology into it i just took as a crappy plot device to ensure batman is able to rescue every hostage against impossible odds. i didn't think any more thought went into it. i may be embarrassed i said that after a second viewing..

edit - it didn't take a second viewing, only a joint. i didn't put enough thought into that post, it makes more sense that the hostage situation would revolve around the surveillance plot and not vice versa so i retract that comment.

[Redlum]

I'm wondering whether people are starting to be clouded by their aspirations for this film and have stopped embracing it for what it is. All this talk of it being a "crime drama" is a bit silly; it's a super-hero movie.  And a great one at that. It sometimes seems like people are sidelining it into another genre in order to critque it more seriously. That's kind of flattering in one respect but it is also a betrayal.

Batman is the same way - it does go pretty dark with the characters, but the political stuff is quite shallow and seems like throwaways just so the audience will be convinced that they're watching something deeply relevant.

Does anyone want or expect it to be deeply, politically relevant? A film can only do so much within it's run-time and (although it's kind of defeatist to say it) whilst having to deal with applying a huge budget and achieving the required spectacle. I really don't think the film was trying to trick us into thinking it was smarter than it actually is. I think it's more a case of people reading far too much into it and then being disappointed when they come up short.

[Pozer]

yeah, all that talk is

fucking gaaaaay.

[pete]

whilst having to deal with applying a huge budget and achieving the required spectacle. I really don't think the film was trying to trick us into thinking it was smarter than it actually is. I think it's more a case of people reading far too much into it and then being disappointed when they come up short.

because no big budget film has ever tried to be smarter than it is?

[Stefen]

Does anyone else think they should have just let Joker plunge to his death while giggling? I know Batman doesn't kill anyone and that's why they had him save the Joker at the end, but by this point of the film Batman wasn't that Batman anymore.

[Gold Trumpet]

I'm wondering whether people are starting to be clouded by their aspirations for this film and have stopped embracing it for what it is. All this talk of it being a "crime drama" is a bit silly; it's a super-hero movie.  And a great one at that. It sometimes seems like people are sidelining it into another genre in order to critque it more seriously. That's kind of flattering in one respect but it is also a betrayal.

I don't think the crime drama talk is silly. It's a reflection of certain style choices the film does make. You're right to say it doesn't make up the content of the film, but most people have always talked about style choices in relation to films. It seems pretty natural to expect. I faulted the film for not being a very good Batman film, but that's just me.

[Jeremy Blackman]

but by this point of the film Batman wasn't that Batman anymore.

I'm sorry, but I still don't see it. By definition, he was still that Batman, because he didn't let the Joker fall. So I'll ask again. What's so dark about the dark knight? (Please read what I wrote above before you answer.)

Does anyone want or expect it to be deeply, politically relevant? A film can only do so much within it's run-time.

Like I said:

if you're going to mention them [political issues] at all, you really need to say something insightful.

And this really has nothing to do with run time. We could make a long list of films that have said something politically insightful with only a sliver of screen time, and without breaking the fourth wall. Even a super-hero comic book movie? Sure. HULK, for example.

Oh, and if anyone is interested in seeing an actual "war on terror" super-hero movie, re-watch the first Spider-Man. I picked it up the first time I saw it, and it infuriated me. (Though when I posted my interpretation here, I don't think I got any agreement.)

[JG]

listen, people are going to justify this movie for years by saying that it works on TWO levels blah blah.. its the same with matrix and fight club and every other movie that hangs on the wall of the bro down the hall. say what you will about the dark knight but its not great because of its ideas, its great because its so cool! its about a group of equally enthusiastic people applauding as batman does a really neat trick on his bike, its about the joker leaning out the window of the cop car his face against the city lights and everyone going quiet for just a second. if theres poetry and meaning in this movie its moments like that. how can you deny such a rare and awesome sense of solidarity?

[Jeremy Blackman]

its about the joker leaning out the window of the cop car his face against the city lights and everyone going quiet for just a second. if theres poetry and meaning in this movie its moments like that.

Totally see what you're saying. And I would love the movie if that's all it did. But I think it reaches farther... and tends to fail when it does.