Loose Change - 9/11 conspiracy truth

[Jeremy Blackman]

You assume that the government is apathetic. That's more than a little absurd, Pete. Are CIA, FBI, and NSA apathetic? What are they doing all day, playing solitaire? Did our little wars in Latin America just happen by accident? Is PNAC apathetic? Is Bilderberg apathetic? If you had all that power, would you not use it? Please.

If the answer to "who benefitted?" doesn't do it for you, if all the financial connections don't do it for you, if the all the whistleblowers don't do it for you, if all the stories of intelligence agents posing as Al Qaeda and don't do it for you, then I don't know what will.

Tonkin doesn't meet your definition of an inside job? You don't have to look very hard to find more. How about the assassinations of MLK & JFK? I can name other "false flag operations" executed or planned by our government and other governments... Operation Northwoods, Operation Ajax, the Reichstag Fire, Mukden, the USS Maine... and there are many other non-theoretical cases. Just look at the history of Israel's innumerable "false flag operations," including the "Lavon Affair," which they admitted to in 2005. (And, as Chomsky always says, when Israel is doing it, we're doing it.)

As our friend Chomsky also talks about at length, we have a long history of either hiring terrorists, working in collaboration with terrorists, or actually being the terrorists all around the world. Why not here? As Chomsky says, the only historical thing about 9/11 is its victims.

And, as I said in my last post, since the government has obviously covered up the truth about 9/11, that suggests a pretty high level of involvement and complicity. Does that bother you at all?

I'll concede that this melting point of steel vs. the temperature of jet fuel fires business is a bit sketchy. From what I just read about the bridge collapse in Oakland, it looks like the steel on the highway didn't actually melt, it just warped enough to cause failure, and that's generally what happens to steel in fires—it gets warped long before actual "melting" occurs. However, the steel in the twin towers was most certainly not your average highway steel beam material. Please read this, which details how the engineers and architects behind the twin towers specifically designed them to endure a plane crash and the probable ensuing jet fuel fires.

For the sake of argument, let's just pretend I didn't say that. Let's accept, for the moment, the false premise that jet fuel fires could have caused a collapse.  The damage on the towers is not symmetrical, so it's impossible for the structural failure to be symmetrical, and thus it's impossible for the collapse to be symmetrical. The video of the burning towers shows, for example, one face burning/smoldering and very little damage (if any) on the other faces. If the steel structure is damaged where it's burning (which is the official hypothesis), that tower would have toppled over or at least fallen asymmetrically. But no, both towers fell symmetrically at free-fall speed. That's physically impossible, and I can't believe you're ignoring it. Does it take a structural engineer to figure that out? Clearly not.

[Jeremy Blackman]

I plucked a few especially relevant clips from Loose Change Final Cut (and one from the 2nd edition) and put them together in this zip file. Quicktime is required.

loosechangeclips.zip - 95.04MB

[pete]

you assume the government is monolithic, with FBI, CIA, NSA all working efficiently together in harmony, and everything massively coordinated.  it's hard to prove or disprove this because our views are so different - because anything I want to list to prove that they're not coordinated and they're clumsy will almost be certainly refuted as intentional.  I'm thinking about Katrina in particular.
I considered tonkin to be a weak example because it is victimless and is based on a false claim as opposed to a massively coordinated attack.  you don't think anything other than an apathetic government can allow for the existence of something like PNAC and the suffering of millions?  you don't think apathy can cause politicians to enforce certain policies propagated by thinktanks and other corrupt entities all the while still going to bed at night thinking they're just players in a game?  you don't think it takes an apathetic population to allow all of this to happen in their hyper-reality, walk right passed the atrocities in the neighboring counties, and still consider themselves noble?
the terrorist acts you speak of are almost always carried out clumsily, with very clumsy consequences that take other clumsy acts to undo - this has almost been a specialty of the US, but is pretty much true all over the world.  it is just strange that this particular terrorist act somehow does not behave like an ordinary terrorist act, but rather, goes exactly as planned, and leaves the world exactly as the NWO envisioned?
as for all the science stuff, yes, I will need some type of actual authority, not just a fire specialist vs. the designer or the building or whatever, but, just like any crime scene, someone with actual access to the place whom'd performed actual investigation.

didn't mean to get you to repeat yourself if you have already.  I just haven't thought about this documentary or this movement since I first saw it a year ago, and the chomsky video totally reminded me of the ripple it generated on the internet. 

[Jeremy Blackman]

you don't think anything other than an apathetic government can allow for the existence of something like PNAC and the suffering of millions?

Allow for the existence of PNAC? People in the government are part of PNAC. Our vice president, for example. John Lehman, a 9/11 commissioner, is a member. Allow for the suffering of millions? As if all our wars and terrorism abroad have happened accidentally?

you don't think apathy can cause politicians to enforce certain policies propagated by thinktanks and other corrupt entities all the while still going to bed at night thinking they're just players in a game?  you don't think it takes an apathetic population to allow all of this to happen in their hyper-reality, walk right passed the atrocities in the neighboring counties, and still consider themselves noble?

I'll agree with you here, definitely. It would be impossible for everyone in the system to know what they're doing. We both know what Chomsky has said about how this works—you don't get to certain positions unless you're willing by nature to play the game. But it's definitely absurd to suggest that the people above them, who are running the game, who have acquired all this power and fight every day to keep it, have not developed scientific methods of control. We know, in fact, that the opposite is true.

the terrorist acts you speak of are almost always carried out clumsily, with very clumsy consequences that take other clumsy acts to undo - this has almost been a specialty of the US, but is pretty much true all over the world.  it is just strange that this particular terrorist act somehow does not behave like an ordinary terrorist act, but rather, goes exactly as planned, and leaves the world exactly as the NWO envisioned?

I don't think 9/11 went exactly as planned. Shanksville is probably an example of that. It probably would have been better (from the terrorist perspective) for the controlled demolitions to happen at the same time the planes crashed. They even accidentally informed the media that WTC7 went down nearly an hour before it was demolished, as one of those video clips shows. There's a huge trail of evidence and big obvious frauds, which have basically created the 9/11 truth movement all by themselves. Like I said, some of this is so obvious that it's insulting. I'm sure they were counting on a complicit media, which definitely worked for a while, but things are beginning to unravel.

but, just like any crime scene, someone with actual access to the place whom'd performed actual investigation.

I agree, that would be ideal. Unfortunately, it's much too late for an actual forensic investigation, since the remains of the towers were quickly taken away by officials. (Again, all this covering up suggests a level of involvement and complicity. I suppose you'd call it incompetence, though.) So we're mostly stuck with videos and eyewitness accounts, which, while valuable, are not the whole story.

[Jeremy Blackman]

A great clip about 9/11 from Zeitgeist.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=107CFLEJ