Michael Moore and his bullshit (Bowling for Columbine)

[Jeremy Blackman]

Sorry JB after re-reading this stuff again, i know i sounded like an asshole to you...it wasn't my tone, please realize that.

I don't believe you. And I've learned not to trust your apologies.

Bowling for Columbine

too bad this thread has extended beyond that.  JB...when are you willing to put forth yourself? . . . never really justifying your own opinion?

If you want to read my personal feelings about Michael Moore, go to this thread. I even had a heart-to-heart debate with Godardian. In fact, this thread kind of started out that way, and it only became explosively about Michael Moore's response when we got stuck on it because you refuse to expose yourself to it. What do you mean, "too bad this thread has extended beyond BFC"... we haven't even arrived at it yet!

The last few pages here are a good example of you making things intensely personal instead of having a normal human debate.... Notice how you repeatedly have been telling me to keep Michael Moore out of this (which doesn't make any sense). Not everything has to be a personal fight. Have some respect.

[aclockworkjj]

so i should base my opinion on michael moore... based on how he (himself) jusifies his own lies....with more lies?  The guy is a fickin' idiot, i don't care what he has to say, nor how he justifies it.    

Seriously...get off your horse, i never said i was "right" nor anyone was "wrong".  

Question? (again):
How much do you think a place above Baby Gap goes for in NYC?
I believe he told Fox News, on air, 1.9 million.  Regardless, maybe that is incorrect, but i guarentee you it's not cheap, nor necessary.

I am glad this guy can bitch about the rich, and get rich in doing so.  And meanwhile he gets these petty followers just eating his garbage up.  You don't see that you are supporting one of the dirtiest ones in the business.  My argument is on him as a fuckin' hypocrit...not as a truth teller.  

ps.
so i started reading that shit...got about half way through.  I am done.  Good thing he cleared up that he doesn't live in a Penthouse, shit...i am sold.  He didn't weasel his way around that at all.  I am suppose to be content thinking that apartments above Baby Gap aren't expensive?  

You don't realize i don't care.  You guys act like i am sitting here shouting, "yo, let's grab our 6-shooters and go shoot some shit".  Hahaha...in fact the only gun i have ever shot was a red rider bb gun.  I am not promoting gun anything.  But i am demoting this guy as a individual "crapweasel".  He is gettin rich bitching about the rich.

I ran across this (just to show you i do look at shit)...and i think this guy hits it on the head without gettin' wrapped up in the political bullshit:

Michael and Me  
Friday, October 24, 2003

"What's that in your pocket?"

"A camera."

"No cameras allowed."

"Don't you know the headliner? He's made a career out of taking film crews into places where cameras are prohibited."

"Sorry, we can't let you bring that in."

"Come on, this is Michael Moore we're talking..."

"Get the tazer."

This was the scene last night at the Memorial Coliseum...or at least it could have been.

Blog's mission was a simple one. Take a camera to last night's "An Evening With Michael Moore" and get kicked out. Unfortunately, Blog never made it to the security check point. The last ticket was sold early yesterday afternoon.

Only in a place where it rains 345 days out of the years would people pay between $15 - $29 to get into a book signing. Only in a state like Oregon would such a thing be held in a 12,000 seat auditorium. Only in a town like Portland would the event sell-out.

There was a time when Blog approved of the author/director's noble efforts. Roger and Me remains a bold classic and TV Nation deserved a ten year run on NBC. Despite the alleged factual errors contained in Bowling for Columbine, many of which have been nicely rebuked by Moore on his website, at least it doesn't offer an easy answer for the tragedy (unlike a certain Gus Van Sant film...). Many of Moore's critics describe him as a firebrand who disregards facts to push an agenda. Of course, most of them could easily be accused of the same thing (Limbaugh? O'Riely? Coulter?).

Then Moore won an Academy Award and unapologetically turned the stage of a ditzy Hollywood ceremony into a pulpit. Moore deserved to be booed, not for speaking out against the president, but for choosing the wrong place and the wrong time. He seems to be suffering from a Citizen Kane-esque ego disorder and last night's event in Portland only further fuels this presumption.

Last night, KOIN News offered a 30 seconds of footage from his stint at the Coliseum. Standing in front of a monitor which enlarged his head to the size of empty Flint storefront, Moore offered his views on the presidency and the economy to a frustrated crowd. The image immediately recalled a certain scene from Orson Welles' old film. With tickets going for $29 and copies of "Dude, Where's My Country?" selling in the foyer for upwards of $17, the event was awfully expensive for all those PSU students and unemployed Baby-Boomers waiting to get in.

Moore's website neglects to mention if any of the proceeds of last night's event, or any of his other dates around the country, were/are going to charity. Blog assumes not, since these things are usually well-publicized in strong, bold fonts. He'll be speaking at a similar "book-signing" at WSU tonight.

The appearance was a part of a nation-wide promotional tour for his new book. Other authors don't charge for book signings but, well, they also don't draw the same size crowds. While it was probably necessary for Moore's management to charge something to pay for the venue rentals on this tour, $29 is awfully high for a show lacking pyrotechnics and electric guitars.

On Monday night, the Red Hot Chili Peppers and the Flaming Lips also played the Coliseum and charged the same price as Moore. Instead of smug political musings and reckless self-promotion on a bare stage, they offered 2+ hours of music, explosions and laser lights.

Is Michael Moore exploiting the people he claims to defend? Has he become a hypocrite like Kane, willing to trade his laurels for $? Is he really that desperate to get out of the apartment over the Baby Gap? Did he really stay at the Colesium afterwards to sign all those books? Is Blog making too many assumptions here without facts to back them up? Is this post starting to sound like the narration for one Moore's documentaries?

The answer to all of these questions, in the words of Kid Notorious, is "you bet your ass."

[RegularKarate]

Well, if that's true (I'm sure "Blog" is very reputable) then that's sad, but it's asside from the fact that the subject is still his books and films.  Particularly BFC.  Which you still have completely ignored... it doesn't matter anymore though, really.  You don't want to admit you may have been wrong about a film you've never seen.

There was a time when Blog approved of the author/director's noble efforts. Roger and Me remains a bold classic and TV Nation deserved a ten year run on NBC. Despite the alleged factual errors contained in Bowling for Columbine, many of which have been nicely rebuked by Moore on his website, at least it doesn't offer an easy answer for the tragedy (unlike a certain Gus Van Sant film...).

What easy answers did Elephant give?

[aclockworkjj]

I'm sure "Blog" is very reputable

he is probably just a student wanting in on the action.  Honestly, i don't know.  But i don't doubt for one minute that moore was charging that much.  Shit, he did the same thing out here...i don't know how much the tickets were (where's md?  he went).  

Regardless of how unreliable that guy may be.  I think he puts the shit out in cut and dry fashion.  the best part being:

With tickets going for $29 and copies of "Dude, Where's My Country?" selling in the foyer for upwards of $17, the event was awfully expensive for all those PSU students and unemployed Baby-Boomers waiting to get in.

it's exactly the reason i will not even spend $2 on a rental of this film.

[Jeremy Blackman]

Are you willing to get back to the argument, which is... did he lie in BFC? If you read "the first half," you mostly read his introduction and his defense of his character...

so i should base my opinion on michael moore... based on how he (himself) jusifies his own lies....with more lies?

...and it might be useful to read the rest of it, which actually justifies the facts of Bowling for Columbine with external evidence, not just his word. Think about this. You're assuming what's on his website but refuse to look at it. You've taken the first step, you just have a little farther to go. Watch the deleted footage from BFC that proves the bank transaction was completely spontaneous and legitimate. Follow the links to reports backing up his assertions. He justifies everything externally, like he does with his books.

[aclockworkjj]

Are you willing to get back to the argument, which is... did he lie in BFC?

yes...sorry for pulluting this shit with my personal opinion on moore as an individual.  Maybe i will run to my friends and borrow his DVD of it.  But Moore is not gettin' any money from me!!!  

ps. JB, i wouldn't have apologized if I didn't feel bad.

[godardian]

Just to give you all an outsider's view on this thread.

Cow's been kicking all your asses by displaying fact and responding to each point in a reasonable way. Everyone else seems to be "copping out" with posts attacking him and not his evidence while the others pat them on the back and say "good one."

At least, that's how it looks from here.

good heavens, raikus read my mind

Not mine.

I think everyone knows that, actually. All arguments are a biased source vs. a biased source, and no documentary could ever be completely objective. Cowgoesmoooooo didn't exactly come up with trenchant, ass-kicking arguments, though, which is what you wrongly claimed; his arguments and sources are as biased and full of holes, if not more so, than anyone else's. His triumphant stance of "objectivity" and revelation were sheeer b.s.

You're also wrong that he's just reasonably "debating." His tone is vituperative and spiteful. It's painfully clear that he's picking a fight. Q.E.D.

I stand by that.

I also think that people are unduly focused on Michael Moore. When it doesn't even have to be proved that the current administration is full of liars and hypocrites who feel no need to hide the fact that they're completely ignorant of ordinary Americans when they're not screwing them worse than they've been screwed since the Reagan-Bush Dark Years 1980-1992, why fight about a documentary filmmaker with no direct policy-making power?

I think he really means to present the truth and really cares about policy and conventional wisdom as it applies to the average American; even if he fails, that still makes him better than most of his enemies in the upper political spheres (where the power is) of the shifty, dissembling, destructively immoral and unethical right wing. Even if his film is part propaganda- I'm not saying it is, I'm saying "if"- where's the indignant, rabid thread about how our mainstream media is extremely propagandistic and obviously firmly in the grasp of the right wing Republican's velvet-gloved iron fist? Where's "Fox News Channel and its totally biased bullshit," etc? Don't more people watch Fox News (or ABC news... or CNN... or their local news) than have seen Bowling for Columbine?

From reading all the above, it's clear to me that this was a red-herring thread started by someone who knew which buttons to push and who people would defend. It's childish.

[Jeremy Blackman]

where's the indignant, rabid thread about how our mainstream media is extremely propagandistic and obviously firmly in the grasp of the right wing Republican's velvet-gloved iron fist? Where's "Fox News Channel and its totally biased bullshit," etc?

You've inspired me to liberate a few threads:

http://www.xixax.com/viewtopic.php?t=4098

http://www.xixax.com/viewtopic.php?t=3833

[cine]

Tolerating this thread makes me feel like a real man.

I've also discovered what exactly gives me a headache when reading every post on the pages I missed. For those interested, perhaps Pedro being one, who may or may not have the answer, I have at least discovered whats giving ME the headache, and here it is:

Reading posts that reek with sophistication and then reading posts that are drenched in naivete.

[aclockworkjj]

Reading posts that reek with sophistication and then reading posts that are drenched in naivete.

explain please...

or are you another one that fears to have a voice?  Seriously, explain, ...or go away.

[cine]

Reading posts that reek with sophistication and then reading posts that are drenched in naivete.

explain please...

or are you another one that fears to have a voice?  Seriously, explain, ...or go away.

Terrible irony here.

[aclockworkjj]

Terrible irony here.

say something or go back to stealing av's...seriously.  my cards are out.

ps. i have seen and lived in more differnet areas of the states than most...and my opinion stems from that...so tell me how i am more naive than a kid sitting in a college lecture, claiming about how he knows how the world is...cause some dumb fatfuck like michael moore says so???

[NEON MERCURY]

.damnn, this thread reaks of bad  "lifetime TV" movie drama....  

......

[Pedro]

lock it again.  and cinephile, the thing that gives me a headache is along the same lines....everyone here seems is too close minded, so there's not as much discussion as just bitching.

[freakerdude]

Damn! I never read this thread b/c I don't care for MM. I thought it might have been the final kicker for acjj and decided to read the entire thing.

As said before, no real discussion about the actual movie other than beliefs. Seemed like there were strong opinions and a few closed minds as well. Hell, ppl should respect each other's point and not argue about who is right.

This whole thread has given me a headache, as many others have said.