Best ironic use of music in a movie?

[mutinyco]

No, that would make you a pissant.

[Alethia]

There's still no justification for it. Doesn't matter what the reference was. I remember when I saw Goodfellas opening night, people were wondering what the point of the shot was. It didn't have any dramatic effect. It seemed out of place.

it was perfect.  in my opinion, at least.

[SoNowThen]

Muty, I know you hate Marty and all, but still, I mean, there's no reason to pick a fight over this last shot. I kinda explained it, why it was referenced, like was already said, the use of the music was perfect because of the transition from crooners to rock in the soundtrack, so it only made sense to then go to punk with the singer singing a song from the crooner era. So in the musical sense it was a nice circular way to end the story. Now we also see that Sid sings the same song in Swindle, and in that film he fires on the audience. So on one hand, since the song works so well, it seems almost nice to reference the other movie. But Marty goes us one more, and does the same thing with the visuals as he did with the music, and gives us the same exact shot as Train Robbery (which as I said was the first "crime" film, as Goodfellas is also a crime film). Just another wonderful cinematic history reference like so much else of the film. But if need be, it can be also explained on a literal level: Henry tells us of how he longs for the old days when he had power,etc, and it was like the final flashback to the old days, again, ironic, because this was a part of the old days that was not so good, and ended him up in the shit he's in now. Which brings us back to My Way: Frank Sinatra was the boss, did things his own way, Sid comes along and is the super-rebel, does things his own way, both hold their head up high. But Henry, well he certainly goes his own way -- he rats out his friends and fucks everything up. If he has "his way" he wouldn't be living where he is right now. Hence, the perfect use of My Way, and the perfect punctuation to end the film, with perhaps a hint to Henry's remorse and guilt, and fear that he might be killed for what he did, and that last shot of Tommy is "haunting" him (and us, the audience, basically implicating us for watching, and enjoying the rise but now hating the fall). A shot right into camera and cutting to black, perfect for the emotions and the beat, and tied forever with this music that has been linked/referenced three ways.

[ShanghaiOrange]

That is the best essay written ever about anything.
It also compliments how he talks right at the camera in the courtroom at the end, I guess.

[mutinyco]

I wasn't insulting the use of My Way. Just the shot. It's still out of place in the film's dramatic scheme. And there's another more logical reason why the music changes as the film progresses: the times are changing. From crooners to Phil Spector to the Stones to Sid Vicious -- it's observational and justified. That shot wasn't. If Marty had put in a scene where they're watching old westerns or something it might've had legs. As is it's out of place.

[mutinyco]

And what also throws it is that it's an image of Tommy. It's Henry's story. Suddenly there's this shot of Tommy firing away. It's a jarring thing to have at your conclusion.

[picolas]

"If I Had a Hammer"

the 'everything's going shitty' montage in Confessions of a Dangerous Mind

[Alethia]

And what also throws it is that it's an image of Tommy. It's Henry's story. Suddenly there's this shot of Tommy firing away. It's a jarring thing to have at your conclusion.

i kinda took it, when i was younger, when i first saw it, as scorsese kinda of very confidently saying, "here's me taking the gangster film to a whole new level".  I mean, look at the shot.  pesci wearing this oversized pin-striped suit, the fedora, standing in an alley, holding a huge revolver and, like great train robbery (the "first crime film") firing away at the audience.  he's dressed like the gangsters we know from hollywood gangster films, standing in a setting like we're used to seeing from hollywood gangster flicks, and firing at the audience like the first hollywood crime film.  i took it as him saying, that's what you've seen before, but look what I just showed you.  anyway, that's just my bullshit theory, feel free to prove it wrong if you would like.

[Pedro]

And what also throws it is that it's an image of Tommy. It's Henry's story. Suddenly there's this shot of Tommy firing away. It's a jarring thing to have at your conclusion.

i kinda took it, when i was younger, when i first saw it, as scorsese kinda of very confidently saying, "here's me taking the gangster film to a whole new level".  I mean, look at the shot.  pesci wearing this oversized pin-striped suit, the fedora, standing in an alley, holding a huge revolver and, like great train robbery (the "first crime film") firing away at the audience.  he's dressed like the gangsters we know from hollywood gangster films, standing in a setting like we're used to seeing from hollywood gangster flicks, and firing at the audience like the first hollywood crime film.  i took it as him saying, that's what you've seen before, but look what I just showed you.  anyway, that's just my bullshit theory, feel free to prove it wrong if you would like.

Yeah, but just because it's something at a new level doesn't mean that it works.

[mutinyco]

Exactly. It's out of style and out of context with the rest of the picture. Most people see it and go: "What does that mean? That they're coming after him?"

Just because Marty has a vast knowledge of film and saw a connection doesn't mean it worked. It was actually a clever idea. It just wasn't handled correctly. There was no set-up for it within the context of what we'd seen prior to that.

[mutinyco]

Secondly, his reference to how we see movie gangsters in that shot was outdated. It's more modeled after Jimmy Gagney era gangsters. I'd argue that by 1990, most people's idea of a movie gangster was inherently influenced by The Godfather -- which offered us Part III the very same year. The average movie goer had probably never seen a Jimmy Cagney film before.

[Alethia]

all valid points.  eh, i don't know.  it worked for me.  guess it just depends on who you are.

[mutinyco]

It would've made more sense if he had just used actual clips from gangster movies in that spot. The point would've been clear and perhaps more creatively successful -- showing just how absurd they were, but now establishing those movies AS movies within this context.

[ShanghaiOrange]

I think this thread has started some interesting debate and I'm glad that I started it.

[thedog]

Alright, the biggest tragedy in the movie was Tommy's death. It's the end of the second act, it's the end of the Goodfellas story (while the third act is the end of Henry's story). The death of Tommy in the movie is the thing a lot of people remember most about the film. Because Tommy WAS the gangster. He was in every sense of the word, a gangster. And Tommy's death was like the end of an era for the goodfellas.

The shot at the end of the film is perfect. Henry's in this nice, green, suburban neighborhood and he goes out to get the paper. He looks up as if he sees a recognizable face. To me, this is him saying "hey Tommy, if only you could see me now". And the shot of Tommy shooting at the camera is his way of saying "Yeah if I saw you now I would fucking shoot you." And look at Henry's remorseful face after the shot, he KNOWS Tommy would fucking brutalize him if he saw where he was at that moment.

It's a shot that says Henry isn't a gangster anymore. He fucked it all up. He became the exact opposite of what he wanted to be in the first place. And Tommy would be pissed off to high heaven if he ever knew about it.

Now I guess it means different things to different people, but a shot like that isn't supposed to be taken literally, mutiny. It's like a fantasy kind of shot. Although I don't totally believe it was put there just to show Marty's vast knowledge of film history. And just because it doesn't make sense to you, doesn't mean it doesn't make sense period. Because when I first saw the shot (when I was about twelve or thirteen), I didn't even know about the Great Train Robbery, and I still got the point of the shot. I don't know exactly who you were watching the film with on that opening night, but if they didn't understand the shot, then no offense but did they even understand the rest of the movie?

P.S. Tommy talks about the rather obscure western The Oklahoma Kid in the film, during the foot shooting scene. It's not The Great Train Robbery, but it does show Tommy and the guys had some kind of interest in westerns.