Once Upon A Time In Hollywood

[achordion]

Thanks for that.  It's been eatin' at me since last month.  I feel like such an outlier (especially here!  I still can't believe I'm the ONLY Xixax'er that had serious issues with this film..."Hey, Lurkers!  Back me up here, will ya?!") that I had to give it another (less excited) chance.   I think I can chill about it now--until early next year when it wins all the Oscars.

Lurker here. You're not the only one.  I found this movie dull and uninspired. It's really lacking in depth. Tarantino's humor is increasingly derivative, on-the-nose, and predictably formulaic. He can only write dialogue in one rhythm and cadence (usually ending in a punchline) and it's beyond tired at this point. On top of all this, it's also just casually sexist and racist in a way that are totally revealing of Tarantino's truly limited perspective.

Also, firmly of the belief that the orgy of revenge violence that caps off every single one of his films has been completely narratively forced and unearned for the past three films now.

And it's worth noting that, in a very real way, this film does not work at all without prior knowledge of the Manson murders. The film doesn't give you background on it and yet a significant portion of the movie's "suspense" relies on you already knowing these facts which are not set-up or explained in the film. Thus, the film will not work for successive generations who will likely have no prior knowledge of Charles Manson (him being dead now and the big 50th anniversary having passed). That being said, I thought the suspenseful scenes were very flat in this movie anyway -- the weakest of his career. Did not for a second feel like Pitt was in real danger for instance.

[WorldForgot]

Thanks for that.  It's been eatin' at me since last month.  I feel like such an outlier (especially here!  I still can't believe I'm the ONLY Xixax'er that had serious issues with this film..."Hey, Lurkers!  Back me up here, will ya?!") that I had to give it another (less excited) chance.   I think I can chill about it now--until early next year when it wins all the Oscars.

On top of all this, it's also just casually sexist and racist in a way that are totally revealing of Tarantino's truly limited perspective.

Which way is that?
Interested in particular how you find the sexism and racism to be revealed in this movie. Considering it's not particularly different from his usual genre-pulp, and there's more women with agency in OUATIH than in either Django or Hateful (not that I find those movies sexist, just that, this movie is so tame & tasteful compared to his more focused explosions).

[Neil]

isn't manson still alive?

[wilberfan]

In our hearts and minds, apparently.

[Drenk]

The next Manson is on SoundCloud.

[Neil]

The next Manson is on SoundCloud.

I think his name is Lil Tay, and he's already in prison.

[achordion]

Thanks for that.  It's been eatin' at me since last month.  I feel like such an outlier (especially here!  I still can't believe I'm the ONLY Xixax'er that had serious issues with this film..."Hey, Lurkers!  Back me up here, will ya?!") that I had to give it another (less excited) chance.   I think I can chill about it now--until early next year when it wins all the Oscars.

On top of all this, it's also just casually sexist and racist in a way that are totally revealing of Tarantino's truly limited perspective.

Which way is that?
Interested in particular how you find the sexism and racism to be revealed in this movie. Considering it's not particularly different from his usual genre-pulp, and there's more women with agency in OUATIH than in either Django or Hateful (not that I find those movies sexist, just that, this movie is so tame & tasteful compared to his more focused explosions).

I'll give a few examples, but there are many, some requiring a shot-by-shot, line-by-line analysis and it ain't screener season yet. 

Racism:
-The Bruce Lee scene is some straight white man's burden shit and plays to Asian tropes that have been regressive for the better part of 50 years at this point.
-Complete erasure of race from the ideology behind the Manson murders. The documentation of this is clear. Then again, this film doesn't seem too concerned with historical facts surrounding its very real characters, much to its detriment.
-Apparently tired of gleefully over-using the N-word, here he instead over-uses Mexican slurs to the enjoyment of... not me or anyone I know.

Sexism:
-Deliberately justifying Polanski's sex crime: "I'm old enough to fuck you, but you're too old to fuck me."
-The brief presentation of Cliff's wife as deserving of murder, but not actually showing the act in order to suggest maybe she wasn't murdered, maybe it was an accident (as Cliff's character surely claimed in court) which is exactly the kind of "did it really happen" and victim blaming sentiment prevalent in the Polanski case, and the cases of most of the male sex offenders who have been taken down by the #MeToo movement (including Tarantino's former godfather Weinstein).
-The little girl as an infantilizing representation of the feminist who doesn't like being talked down to.
-Manson's near-total lack of presence in the film puts the onus on the women as the lead perpetrators of the violence and insidious ideology.

[jenkins]

the Bruce Lee bit is curious. i believe that QT was aware of what he was doing, and the scene was meant to be surprising. he was going against the grain. but it does come off as trolling, really. and the end of the movie is explicit trolling

i think QT could have lightly touched the heavy issue of white supremacy without overcomplicating or overwhelming his story. he knows how to reference things. allude to them. raise awareness. the blood on the cotton in Django Unchained is a highly poetic demonstration of this ability within him. in fact i think Django is his most poetic movie but that's another topic

any use is overuse, there are two Mexican slurs in the movie. he went there. he's trolling

i'm not sure who said that line or how it justifies Polanski

it's crazy to say the wife deserved to be murdered, period. and you can't know the true facts about a fictitious character, like what, you picture the court room? there's a good heart in the topic but it's a kangaroo court

the little girl is so badass and when she complimented Leo it was the biggest compliment he received the entire movie it knocked me out

picturing the movie without Manson, i can see what you're saying. but like, no offense, fuck Manson. fuck him, and i'm glad he and his ideologies were left out. he was bad news. he shouldn't be glorified. he shouldn't be celebrated as a central figure in a multiplex movie. QT actually handled this aspect with grace. and he made the women, shit this is cool, i just read it, he made the women the lead perpetrators of the violence and insidious ideology! don't need no patriarchy, thank you much. this is the opposite of sexist

[WorldForgot]

Pussycat said it, Jenks, in the car, and she is defooo older than Polanski's victim was... QT seems disinterested in "politics," as far as black and white sensationalizing would go, and the line is deliberate, I'd agree, but its not any sort of over vindication. Entrenched, yet, in how we handle our own media culture. Trudi Flaser is a boss and will teach many people to cut it out with "actress," which is nonsensical. She is a reflection of Sharon and Natalie Wood and Jodie and so many women that illuminate our movie dreamz.

As a Mexican biboy that's listened to many of la raza speak on it, I can guarantee you we are not offended by this fault of Rick's, lol.

(AND, I gotta say it, during the 4/20 show at the Bev this year they played CHEECH AND CHONGS NEXT MOVIE and FRIDAY, and listen man.... QTz movie theater packed, LA crowd, you know, a crowd even less biased than what you get for OUATIH at the Bev because it's poc stoner flicks, all laughing together at this and .. I mean, some things are funny because we understand the distance between us and what's on screen. The human faults, the absurdity of the past. Our irl unease could use a release valve, maybe?)

All your stances feel near Ad Hominem toward QT rather than the screenplay, and I do appreciate you elaborating, sincerely. ( welcome to the board!! ) I adore an eye on progressive cinema, but i dont think that sterilization is the way... For me the guideposts are Pasolini, Claire Denis, Gregg Araki, Todd Haynes, Assayas... Cinema striving to be transgressive, not stringently leftist. That's just my bag though, in this realm of "provocations." Not all filmmakers are sensationalists but obviously there exists the breed that yearns to scandalize. QT digz provocative films much more than any of us, I'd assume.

The only one social-alarm stance you didn't cite is the "he didn't include the Vietnam!" aspect. Still surprised, achordion, that this of all films, pushed you to feel that Tarantino's regressive or toxic. Anything you mentioned about OUATIH can be leveled against Reservoir Dogs or Pulp or Jackie Brown, even.

[Drenk]

Deliberately justifying Polanski's sex crime: "I'm old enough to fuck you, but you're too old to fuck me."

That's overreaching. Polanski didn't rape a 17 years old woman (I mean, the scene in the movie doesn't even truly work since the actress is clearly in her twenties) but at 13 years old girl, the difference is kind of huge. If the little girl had said this line to Cliff Booth, then yeah...

Also, I think that Tarantino sees himself in the little girl, he's from her generation and clearly respects acting, I remember him saying that during the shoot of Jackie Brown he imitated an actor (or director? I don't remember) all day, method-like.

He has two thin "characters", both hysteric wives, which show a boyish sense of humor, borderline sexist, yes—no need to say that the viewer is supposed to think that it's all right if a woman is murdered, that's definitely not his intention and not the way the scene makes sense. There is a perverse attraction toward Cliff, even though we know he's probably murdered his wife—ultimately, I'm watching a movie and my feelings toward the character are not the feelings I'd have if Cliff Booth was my co-worker.

I find the Bruce Lee part racist because I was physically uncomfortable when Booth mocked the sounds Lee made, and that was silly in the first part to transform Lee into a caricature of his on screen persona—the joke about a big name being cocky and then "humbled" always work for me, and I ultimately love the way it's shot, but it does make me cringe.

The Mexican lines are character development. They're white dudes in the sixties.

[jenkins]

Pussycat perpetuates insidious ideology

the Bruce Lee scene is like the QT cameo in Pulp Fiction

[achordion]

The actress being older than 18 is besides the point. We are led to believe she is an underage teen. The line feels super deliberate, throwaway and yet front-and-center, especially in light of the controversy that surrounded Tarantino's comments about Polanski's sex crime. Despite his public apology for his comments, Tarantino's original beliefs are reaffirmed here: some underage girls are temptresses, fully capable of making adult choices of what to do with their bodies. And were it not for the law, it would be totally ok for a a middle aged man to 'acquiesce' to their sexual desire. It's NAMBLA shit on the face of it. This film is highly reactionary and problematic in noteable ways.

Fair enough on not being offended by the Mexican slurs, but that wasn't exactly my point. Their presence feels part and parcel of Tarantino's somewhat racist and sexist tendencies which comes into clear view in this film through what feel like deliberate choices and less comments on the the characters, setting, or story.

I agree with you that audiences' awareness of the distance between the images on screen and their current reality can be a source of great humor. I've always enjoyed attending screenings of old exploitation and schlock films partly for this very reason. But it's become clearer to me over time that not everyone is laughing for the same reasons. Depending on the audience, many people are laughing with the regressive aspects of these films, not at them -- particularly the case with older white men.

Totally, I'm not advocating for sterilizing storytelling, and certainly not history. But I do think these cultural critiques are an important part of the viewing experience, and can exist comfortably alongside the auteurist critiques of craft. I love the filmmakers you mentioned and think there's a greater degree of thoughtfulness in their use of violence and epithets in their films. Their choices feel artistically earned and justified.

I think Reservoir Dogs and Jackie Brown (his best film) don't actually suffer as much from these issues. The n-word is prevalent in Jackie Brown, but it feels like a natural part of Ordell's character to use the word so much. Reservoir Dogs is following violent mob criminals who, of course, are presented as sexist and racist because that's how these people are in real life.

[jenkins]

i don't believe that QT is asking you to look at the movie through your perspective on him as a person rather than through characters, setting, and story. that's a definite choice of perspective, which you mention and compliment. and we're not the kind of people who like to take what makes a person feel good away from them. but we, or at least i, to not create a group situation, i like to talk about the character, setting, and story

[WorldForgot]

But it's become clearer to me over time that not everyone is laughing for the same reasons. Depending on the audience, many people are laughing with the regressive aspects of these films, not at them -- particularly the case with older white men.

This is the most interesting part of the film's public discussion, to me! I dont agree with yours or jenkins' reading of the Pussycat scene, only because I dont see any teens here illustrated as "fully capable of making [the] adult choice," and what's at stake is innocence across the board. The characters' and the medium's.

It's an Archie Bunker scenario.
Are we shining a light on the culture watching what they themselves made, and what are the implications of who enjoys it, or is the mirror fueling more narcissists? I lean toward, and hope for, the former.

[jenkins]

mine wasn't a scene reading but a look at the scene from an offered perspective

Cliff is not biting the bait is what i remember. certainly complexities within this arrangement

everything is going fine