Game of Thrones (spoilers)

[Jeremy Blackman]

Before I rewatch the episode tonight, a couple more comments...

Did people notice that the Vale's war horn was sounded like 2 or 3 times before it was loud and clearly audible? That was such a fascinating choice. As if the first couple times might have been in the viewer's imagination.

...

Quick flashback to Arya's story. Heard something over the weekend that has basically ironed out the Arya weirdness for me. First of all, the actress saying that she patched up Arya was completely bogus. She might have stopped the bleeding, but just barely. At that point, Arya was still in mortal danger, and probably a day or two away from sepsis and death. Even if she did survive, she'd probably be significantly handicapped and would never have normal digestion ever again...

She flees from the Waif and instantly starts bleeding. All it takes is a tumble, and things get much worse. She's in severe mortal danger from her gut wound when she goes zen and finally defeats the Waif. The only reason she survives is that she makes it back to the House of Black and White and drinks from the pool (which previously cured her blindness). I did notice her bloody footsteps leading there, but for some reason the significance didn't register. This is the first time any actual healing takes place. Had she stayed with the actress, she certainly would have died.

As for Arya behaving stupidly, the best explanation is that she just behaved stupidly. Maybe she was trying to draw the Waif out (already had the trap set up) and got too cocky about it. Or had a momentary lapse in judgement. But she certainly learned from that, didn't she? It could be seen as her final lesson.

In fact, Arya is not necessarily known for her caution. She has an impulsive streak. And I guess you can't blame her — Arya starts out as 11 years old in the show. She was 9 years old in the books.

[Fernando]

All right, you guys have talked me back from the ledge a little bit. It's just the "I'm a part of you now" line is such a weird fucking thing to have him say there unless it had that subtext.

I think he meant that the harm that he did to her will always be there, just like JB already pointed out, in the same way Theon will always carry the remains of Ramsey's physical and psychological torture, although Theon suffered him way longer and literally lost parts of himself.

I assume Jon and Bran have to converge at some point in their battle against the white walkers. With Sam hopefully not far behind.

Yes, that's the most logical move, an all Stark reunion of Uncle, The Prince that was Promised and Heir.

This story has so much potential of interesting pairings, let's consider that Thoros, Beric and presumably the Hound are heading north. If Melisandre makes it she will meet again Thoros and share stories of bringing people back to life.

Now that Sansa has LF on her side, it's only logical that the Vale will lend part of its army to fight that war, I mean Jon via Sansa should ask for men since they are outnumbered by a large margin.

Then there's Sam as you said he has to eventually meet them again and hopefully share some good knowledge.

In the end Bran is the one that will have the key to defeat the WW, that theory of him warging a Dragon as awesome as that sounds right now seems improbable, let alone that Dany is at the other side of Westeros, she will probably first arrive at the Iron Islands, then King's Landing, settle and then...that's a lot of time and winter is coming.

This is perhaps the Sansa quote of the episode, after Jon promises to protect her: "No one can protect me. No one can protect anyone."

There's a theory that this is a clever allusion to Arya ("no one") and foreshadowing that Arya might in fact come home and protect the Starks in this tumultuous time.

I like that, although I've been so wrong guessing Arya's story, at some point I had this prediction, GRRM has said the end will be bittersweet, so I thought that when Dany was finally at the Iron Throne the faceless man will give Arya Dany's name and...

[Jeremy Blackman]

Fair warning, I'll have another post tomorrow, but for now:

GRRM has said the end will be bittersweet

Bittersweet could be perfect. Let's say Daenerys does reunify the seven kingdoms, and the Starks rule the North. That's accomplished by virtue of Jon and Dany's inevitable white walker-fighting alliance (via Sam and Jorah meeting at the citadel, or Varys and whomever*). Jon and Dany's relation being revealed will make it all the easier. I also imagine Dany would be impressed by Sansa. (Picture it now: Sansa's like, "Yes, please destroy them all. And let me watch." Tyrion's like, "Okay wait a sec." Dany smirks.) This Targaryen/Stark ending is all I want.

* Imagine Varys (with Dany) and Littlefinger (with the Starks) being forced to work together again. (Cyclical.)

Bittersweet probably means there aren't many other happy endings. The damage from the white walkers and from the warfare itself will be significant. Half of the main cast might be dead. And that's just fine. That's what we've signed up for. Jaime's end will be maximally tragic, Brienne will die heroically, etc. We might even see Jon become a white walker.

I feel more confident now that Westeros could end up with a total matriarchy. Daenerys, Sansa, and Yara. Maybe that's what "breaking the wheel" means.

The only flaw is, what if Sansa is not as strong in the books? Maybe she does get there, but some other way, and it simply takes longer. Either way, they must be just barreling through the Winds of Winter plot points right now.

[Lottery]

My fingers are crossed for a 'Daenerys doesn't learn from the mistakes of predecessors' ending where her advisors can't stop her from enforcing her brutal tactics so we have up with a conflict with the two 'forces of good' in the show- her and the Starks. I know she just stopped the Ironborn leaders to stop reaving and stuff but I struggle with her keeping the Dothraki horde in check (dragons or not). She doesn't need to go wildfire crazy but that would be a nice touch.
I'm surprised she's so normal considering she's literally the most inbred person on the planet. They do need her dragons to kill the evil snowmen though.

I feel like that matriarchal ending seems a bit to neat and sweet to happen- something closer to it might happen in the show but I hear the book is a bit more unpredictable. Would it be fair to say that I reckon 2 of 3 women you mentioned will die? Not sure which though.
I never thought 'breaking the wheel' head any gender connotation, I saw it as a very-surface level statement about the ruling classes. Will she try her chain-breaking, master-killing tactics on a greater scale in Westeros- will she succeed? Will she be called out as a hypocrite for being on top of the pyramid, with power absolute? Possibly going hand-in-hand with the brutal Daenerys thing.

I don't know if I want a Jon, King of the World ending either. There's literally nothing he wants more than to be Jon Stark and being Lord of Winterfell, Warden of the North/King in the North would be greatest cherry on top ever. That's the 'sweet' I would really appreciate out of the bittersweet. But there's a chance that Bran could come back as the crippled Lord and have one of Jon's or Sansa's kids as an heir.
Jon's one of my faves in the show, he's had a shitty, rough life. Let him live the rest of it out quietly in the North.

If we don't end up with an apocalyptic ending when all the regions are kinda wrecked/independent, it would be cool if we had an unexpected character become ruler. Someone totally untrained and unexpected but finds themselves in the chair because of the rules of primogeniture.

Ideally, I'm hoping for something realistic but kinda hopeful. As in the wheel never truly breaks, the cycle continues forever, people somewhere are going to be oppressed no matter what- but as the cycle continues, we slowly lose our savage ways and find hope. That sorta business. Not too grim. Not too fluffy fairy tale. But fair. But I'll only think that ending is deserved if we (the viewers/readers) suffer a lot before we get to it.

Also, please, please give us Jaimie becoming a good dude. Or doing something good before he dies. Like you said, tragic and all that.
I hear his arc is way better in the book but I find myself rooting for him again.

[Sleepless]

evil snowmen

I'm so fucking excited for the remaining episodes we've got left of this show. The more I reflect on BOTB, the more I think my initial reaction might very well be correct, it is the best episode of the show so far. If this is how GOT handles resolutions and trying things together, then I am so on board with the process of concluding ahead. There've been times where my interest in the show has waned or I've become somewhat tired of it, but I'm completely re-energized by it now. Reading everyone's thoughts here is a major contributor to that.

I think that once "peace" has been achieved and the white walkers have defeated, it's only inevitable that Jon will wander off into the sunset to explore the far reaches of the north. I wouldn't be shocked if Bran goes will him.

Cersi remains the character that I'm most interested in. Of course she's going to get her ultimate comeuppance in the end since she's managed to dodge the bullet so many times, but her story seems to keep stalling and stagnate this season. I hope she has at least one more grand moment of obscene power before she is suddenly and totally destroyed for good.

[03]

has anyone else been watching this season by listening to other peoples loud ass conversations about every episode instead of getting the chance to watch it themselves? i gave up around episode 3 because everyone is constantly talking about it. i know what happens but visually it must be amazing because no one blabbed openly about the prior.
i think social media is a supplement to the death of art.

[jonas]

They better start burning those thousands of bodies right outside of Winterfell! White Walkers reaching the wall has to be soon, right?

[Jeremy Blackman]

Some observations to share after my rewatch...

Sophie Turner has given her best performance to date in this episode. Her power here is almost overwhelming. So much is accomplished wordlessly.

In the war planning meeting, after each dubious plan is made, it cuts to Sansa with this very subtle skeptical look. At the end, it cuts to her and she has this expression that very clearly says "uhh yeah, this is dumb, we're gonna need the Vale for sure." (More on Sansa later.)

Did people notice that the Vale's war horn was sounded like 2 or 3 times before it was loud and clearly audible? That was such a fascinating choice. As if the first couple times might have been in the viewer's imagination.

Correction/elaboration:

At dawn, Davos hears a horn blow three times. This is some deep foreshadowing. Later, when they're encircled and Jon is being trampled, you hear the horn in the sound bed, pulsing and resonating through that whole sequence. It's amazing. The sound manifests itself as a kind of hopeful premonition in the midst of all the trauma and horror. Because soon after, we hear the Vale's horn clearly, and the knights ride in.

In this moment, everyone's expressions are priceless:

- Jon is bewilderment personified.
- Littlefinger is like aww yeah, look at me. Relishing this with every fiber of his being.
- Sansa is like, Jesus Christ, Jon. This is pathetic. Ugh, I totally called this!
- Ramsay: No. Seriously? Just no. This is not fair.

Also, I was surprised to realize that the actual battle occupies only 11 or 12 minutes of the episode:

38:50 – Jon charges forward.
49:46 – The Vale horn is heard.
55:06 – Jon's final punch.

When Ramsay says "you can't kill me, I'm part of you now," Sansa's reaction is endlessly fascinating. The camera invites you to follow her microexpressions. She does what could be a little gasp of horror, but that immediately reveals itself as disgust, and she is actually just taking a breath to deliver her epic correction, which I'll quote again: "Your words will disappear. Your house will disappear. Your name will disappear. All memory of you will disappear." Her face is quietly defiant, confident, and victorious, and she's clearly struggling not to let that smile come out too early. It's so perfect. Give Ms. Turner all the awards.

By the way, Daenerys being charmed by Yara was so delightful. And lots of interpersonal progress between Dany and Tyrion, finally. Her leadership squad feels like a cohesive force now. A very interesting team is forming.

If this is how GOT handles resolutions and trying things together, then I am so on board with the process of concluding ahead.

Yep. They'll just have to make sure this director keeps his schedule clear. He (Miguel Sapochnik) is also directing the upcoming finale.

My fingers are crossed for a 'Daenerys doesn't learn from the mistakes of predecessors' ending where her advisors can't stop her from enforcing her brutal tactics so we have up with a conflict with the two 'forces of good' in the show- her and the Starks. I know she just stopped the Ironborn leaders to stop reaving and stuff but I struggle with her keeping the Dothraki horde in check (dragons or not). She doesn't need to go wildfire crazy but that would be a nice touch. I'm surprised she's so normal considering she's literally the most inbred person on the planet. They do need her dragons to kill the evil snowmen though.

In my mind, the only certainty is that Daenerys does break the wheel and return the seven kingdoms to Targaryen rule, but of a new kind. I think it's possible she'll become a mad queen, but not in the scope of this narrative. As long as Tyrion can calm her fires, it looks promising — they've been carefully dispensing exposition that indicates Daenerys is developing a clear mind about things. She even demanded that the Iron Islands reverse their way of life (as you said).

Here's my random prediction on the Dothraki. First of all, they worship Daenerys like a god now, so they will most likely do as they're told. Dany's whole point with them is, you know what, maybe the Dothraki wouldn't be just raping and pillaging if they didn't have leaders with that goal in mind. (As she told them, they were small men with small goals, not fit to lead.) I think if they actually take part in a victory against Westeros elites and frozen demons, they will be more than happy with the incomprehensible levels of glory they've attained with Daenerys, and more than willing to remain faithful.

We know they get restless, so how about this: the Dothraki patrol the seven kingdoms in a circle, led by Daario and the Second Sons (as they were in this episode). Perhaps one of the dragons tags along to keep the soldiers in line and serve as a reminder to all Westerosi that Daenerys rules.

Side note. It would be interesting if some of the key players survived and found themselves exiled to Essos. A continent swap. And maybe someday they will return to challenge Daenerys. I'm wondering which of Daenerys's forces, if any, she could afford to send back to Essos to ensure the freedom of Mereen etc. (She can't actually rule both continents, right?)

[Lottery]

- Sansa is like, Jesus Christ, Jon. This is pathetic. Ugh, I totally called this!

I'm still pretty grumpy of her not telling Jonno, especially when Jon asked if she has any advice. Could have saved a lot of soldiers. Kinda her fault as well. Also, she barely cared when Rickon's corpse was being stretchered by. He was just a pawn. Jon was totally messed up by Rickon's death.
I guess we all have our own ways of grieving.
The new ruthless, pragmatic Sansa makes for a good character but there's a strong chance she might become a 'love to hate- grudgingly support' character- hey- just like Littlefinger! She might become closer to Cersei than she knows, a sharp, heartless player of the game (but far more competent).
She'll either fearlessly and savagely defend the Stark family (name) and gain revenge- and/or forsake her prior relationships and sacrifice those who were once important to her to reach her goals. Would be cool.

[Tictacbk]

Anyone else think the result of whatever Cersei/others are planning is gonna leave Westeros wide open for Dany to waltz in and take it without a battle? In a show that loves to subvert every expectation that'd be the ultimate subversion. Six seasons of waiting for her to build her army and then she doesn't even need to use it.

[Jeremy Blackman]

Anyone else think the result of whatever Cersei/others are planning is gonna leave Westeros wide open for Dany to waltz in and take it without a battle? In a show that loves to subvert every expectation that'd be the ultimate subversion. Six seasons of waiting for her to build her army and then she doesn't even need to use it.

Either Cersei or the white walkers, for sure. Cersei does seem more likely, maybe even next episode, considering all the aggressive foreshadowing. It's certainly better for Daenerys from a PR point of view if the dragons don't have to torch King's Landing.

I really like your prediction. It's funny, I was just thinking this morning — Daenerys is such an unstoppable force, how can they execute this in a way that's unpredictable? Your suggestion is kind of a great solution. Daenerys arrives with everything she has to find a Westeros in absolute turmoil and disarray, practically eating itself alive, with no capacity to resist. Plus, after King's Landing explodes, I think the citizens would welcome her.

My only doubt is that, well, being unpredictable via anticlimax is maybe not the best dramatic storytelling choice. It has to be glorious or amazing in some way, right? If Daenerys doesn't arrive to immediately clash with the white walkers, what is a comparably epic alternative?

Anyway, I'm also wondering about the timing. Before she can leave Mereen, doesn't she need to wait for Euron to arrive? And if he's building a thousand ships, won't that take a while? Even if she had enough ships to leave now, she can't leave Mereen exposed to Euron's navy.

I'm becoming increasingly curious about Jon and Daenerys. Some people are actually predicting they will clash and do battle or something. My response: are you insane? With what remaining forces would Jon attempt to confront her, and does he have any appetite for that whatsoever?

Nah, I think Tyrion will helpfully inform Dany that the Starks are bitter enemies of King's Landing — also that he and Sansa were married, and she's pretty okay. I can actually see a bond forming between Dany and Sansa — consider their similar positions growing up, forced into royal marriages, raped a bunch, breaking free of that through force of will, and learning to become strong players.

Even more convincing for their alliance is that Jon and Dany are both Targaryens. Any number of key persons could discover that — Sam, Bran, or Varys, for example. (In fact, since he's been downloading all of history, Bran probably knows it by now.) There are innumerable ways that Dany and Jon's people could meet up. A lot of them already know each other. Also, House Mormont (Jorah's people) and House Stark are now very close allies. (Fun fact, Jon defeated Ramsay with a Mormont shield.) Jon even has Davos, who has experience attacking King's Landing by sea! (Not to mention, the white walkers have the effect of unifying even the most unexpected forces.) There are just mountains of evidence for an upcoming Stark/Targaryen alliance.

Side note on Littlefinger — I think after getting to know her, he could see Sansa's ascendency from a mile away, and he wanted to be on board. If Sansa unites with Daenerys, Littlefinger is suddenly on top of the world. And if he's smart, his chance of betraying them anytime soon is nil.

[Fernando]

- Sansa is like, Jesus Christ, Jon. This is pathetic. Ugh, I totally called this!

I'm still pretty grumpy of her not telling Jonno, especially when Jon asked if she has any advice. Could have saved a lot of soldiers. Kinda her fault as well. Also, she barely cared when Rickon's corpse was being stretchered by. He was just a pawn. Jon was totally messed up by Rickon's death.
I guess we all have our own ways of grieving.
The new ruthless, pragmatic Sansa makes for a good character but there's a strong chance she might become a 'love to hate- grudgingly support' character- hey- just like Littlefinger! She might become closer to Cersei than she knows, a sharp, heartless player of the game (but far more competent).
She'll either fearlessly and savagely defend the Stark family (name) and gain revenge- and/or forsake her prior relationships and sacrifice those who were once important to her to reach her goals. Would be cool.

As I said she knew Rickon was doomed but she didn't even touched his body, but I guess she only had one thing in mind, watch Ramsey die.

Now that you mentioned ruthless, these days I've been thinking about what is next for Sansa, I don't think she will battle WW, and her enemies at King's Landing are too far away and besides, the last time a Stark wanted to go there for revenge it didn't go well, so my guess now is that what she could do is go to the twins or send the Knights of the Vale to kill Walder Frey, if not that, what else can she do?

Anyone else think the result of whatever Cersei/others are planning is gonna leave Westeros wide open for Dany to waltz in and take it without a battle? In a show that loves to subvert every expectation that'd be the ultimate subversion. Six seasons of waiting for her to build her army and then she doesn't even need to use it.

That's interesting, but there's no way the taking of King's Landing is done without a huge battle, there will be fire and carnage.

[Jeremy Blackman]

Edit: Looks like this story is wrong. Speculation based on false information.

http://xixax.com/index.php?topic=11571.msg344850#msg344850


The Brexit Could Be Bad News for 'Game of Thrones'

The European Union helps fund production of HBO's epic in Northern Ireland. If the U.K. leaves, that money could too.

Via Foreign Policy

Millions of people are set to tune in Sunday to watch the season six finale of Game of Thrones, HBO's sprawling fantasy epic about warring kingdoms in the fictional land of Westeros. On Thursday, voters in a real-life kingdom will decide whether to break with the European Union — a move that could spell bad news for the fictional Starks, Lannisters, and Tyrells.

The hit show might seem to have little to do with this week's referendum on Britain's potential exit from the EU, which polls show coming down to the wire with the "Remain" and "Leave" camps locked in an increasingly tight race. But if voters cast their ballots in favor of a so-called Brexit, it won't simply be the economies of Britain and Europe that feel the pinch. Shows like Game of Thrones will also be harder — and costlier — to produce, meaning that the real world and the fantasy one will collide to the possible detriment of both.

That's because if the U.K. votes to leave the EU, it would take Northern Ireland with it, potentially robbing HBO of one of the show's primary filming locations. It takes a lot of cash to depict Jon Snow and thousands of Stark loyalists defeating Ramsay Bolton's forces to take back Winterfell, a scene shot there and aired this past Sunday.

That leaves HBO looking for partners to help pay for the show, and some of that money for it comes from the EU's European Regional Development Fund, created to spur economic growth across the European Union. If the U.K. leaves, filmmakers might not be eligible to draw from that fund. This means that some of the cash used to bring big-budget productions to Northern Ireland could disappear.

HBO would not comment on the possibility of a Brexit impacting production of the show, which is or has been filmed in Spain, Croatia, and Malta, in addition to Northern Ireland. (It has also shot in Iceland, which is not an EU member state.) Northern Ireland Screen, the national film agency for Northern Ireland, also declined to comment.

But when asked if a Brexit would put financing for shows like Game of Thrones and other productions at risk, Peter Chase, a senior fellow at the German Marshall Fund of the United States' Brussels office, said "Absolutely."

"It might be up in the air for U.S. studios who want to film in the U.K.," Chase told Foreign Policy. "There are EU programs to help fund all of this. If the U.K. is no longer part of the EU, that has the potential to go away."

Game of Thrones wouldn't be the only show potentially threatened. British film and television projects were given $32 million over the last seven years from organizations like Creative Europe, which grants money for media and cultural projects. This includes Oscar-nominated British or British-American films Carol, Brooklyn, and Shaun the Sheep, as well as the documentary about the troubled singer Amy Winehouse, Amy.

Many artists, actors, authors, and other leaders of Britain's creative industries have made their opposition to the Brexit public. In a letter published last month, author John le Carre, actors Jude Law, Keira Knightley, Benedict Cumberbatch, and 278 other signatories from the British film, music, theater, literature, dance, design, arts, and fashion communities wrote that "Britain is not just stronger in Europe, it is more imaginative and more creative, and our global creative success would be severely weakened by walking away."

"Leaving Europe would be a leap into the unknown for millions of people across the U.K. who work in the creative industries, and for the millions more at home and abroad who benefit from the growth and vibrancy of Britain's cultural sector," they added.

[Fernando]

Obviously they will have to handle that and eventually I don't think it will hurt them that bad, they are getting huge ratings, they have averaged around 23 million viewers across all platforms, somehow they will have to work it out...

Side note on Littlefinger — I think after getting to know her, he could see Sansa's ascendency from a mile away, and he wanted to be on board. If Sansa unites with Daenerys, Littlefinger is suddenly on top of the world. And if he's smart, his chance of betraying them anytime soon is nil.

That sounds like LF, but, did he really not know about Ramsey? and the thing here is that we only have the show to speculate on this story line since in the book Sansa is entirely in different place, but I agree, he won't betray her now.

Anyway, I'm also wondering about the timing. Before she can leave Mereen, doesn't she need to wait for Euron to arrive? And if he's building a thousand ships, won't that take a while? Even if she had enough ships to leave now, she can't leave Mereen exposed to Euron's navy.

Maybe they will meet at the sea, man that would be an awesome battle and expensive too, I can see that happening at some point in the books but not so sure it can work out ($$$) on the show.

I'm becoming increasingly curious about Jon and Daenerys. Some people are actually predicting they will clash and do battle or something. My response: are you insane? With what remaining forces would Jon attempt to confront her, and does he have any appetite for that whatsoever?

Nah, I think Tyrion will helpfully inform Dany that the Starks are bitter enemies of King's Landing — also that he and Sansa were married, and she's pretty okay. I
can actually see a bond forming between Dany and Sansa — consider their similar positions growing up, forced into royal marriages, raped a bunch, breaking free of that through force of will, and learning to become strong players.

Agree, I don't see Jon and Dany fighting, Tyrion wouldn't allow it and Jon and Sansa do know Tyrion, he was nice with both of them and helped Bran too when he designed the saddle.

What everyone is hoping is for the Dragons to head north and Bran to warg one of them, but for that to happen Dany first needs to conquer Westeros, we're a long way for that to happen.

[Jeremy Blackman]

A couple quick random things from Episode 9 that I should keep out of my next post:

I never thought to look this up before, but Daenerys's command, "dracarys," is Valyrian for "dragonfire."

Apparently Ramsay was using the burning crosses as distance markers as he shot arrows at Rickon. Kind of brilliant on his part. Were Ramsay not obscenely evil, he might have been a good military asset against the white walkers.

Also,

View this post on Instagram

?