Game of Thrones (spoilers)

[Robyn]

Also they have Bran there who could explain everything!

Bran is not Bran, he is the three-eyed raven. The default position of the three-eyed raven is that he rarely gets directly involved. The exceptions are what make him interesting. And they need to remain that — exceptions. If Bran considers himself more of an interventionist, he probably sees that he needs to let events unfold to a certain point for things to line up properly. He and the show are both ahead of us.

I think it's also an important point that Bran (3ER), doesn't really know everything. He's capable of knowing everything, but Bran's training in the ways of three-eyed ravenry was massively truncated, and he's still figuring out how the hell it all works. At best, he can pick out bits and pieces from the overwhelming agglomerate of information that's flowing through him.

the bran thing is interesting. the complaints about him not doing anything is silly because he knows so much more then anyone else and maybe he know he doesn't have to save jon beyond the wall or sansa/arya from little finger or whatever. because they'll make it anyway.

also, as JB said, he's not Bran anymore. he clearly doesn't care about little things because he see's the big picture. he probably also busy trying to figure out if it's past, now or future atm. i mean, he hooked himself with a tree and thinks he's a tree eyed raven. the kid is fucked up.

[Lottery]

Here's what the director had to say about the events of the episode/pacing:

"We were aware that timing was getting a little hazy. We've got Gendry running back, ravens flying a certain distance, dragons having to fly back a certain distance...In terms of the emotional experience, [Jon and company] sort of spent one dark night on the island in terms of storytelling moments. We tried to hedge it a little bit with the eternal twilight up there north of The Wall. I think there was some effort to fudge the timeline a little bit by not declaring exactly how long we were there. I think that worked for some people, for other people it didn't. They seemed to be very concerned about how fast a raven can fly but there's a thing called plausible impossibilities, which is what you try to achieve, rather than impossible plausibilities. So I think we were straining plausibility a little bit, but I hope the story's momentum carries over some of that stuff. It's cool that the show is so important to so many people that it's being scrutinized so thoroughly. If the show was struggling, I'd be worried about those concerns, but the show seems to be doing pretty well so it's OK to have people with those concerns."

http://variety.com/2017/tv/news/game-of-thrones-season-7-episode-6-beyond-the-wall-timeline-director-1202534403/

Pretty iffy on that last sentence but whatevs.

[Jeremy Blackman]

Oof, you're not kidding, that last sentence is garbage. I read another interview with Alan Taylor, and he was sort of unconvincing there too. I do think a lot of the complaints could have been prevented with another minute or two of screen time. This director doesn't seem interested enough in that. I hope they've learned a few lessons for next season.

[Kal]

So many Game of Thrones reviews and podcasts are mostly just evaluating what's good and what's bad about an episode. If you spend all your time doing that, you just don't have time to analyze much of anything. Evaluation and analysis are two very different things. But this is what GoT has done. It's spawned an industry of evaluators and nitpickers.

A bit off subject, but I've noticed critics and society these days (even Twitter) are too much about bitching and complaining and less about trying to find the positive side or giving things deeper analysis. People love to find something wrong everywhere and that's not a good way to enjoy life.

This is the good and bad side of watching shows week to week. You think about each thing too much. When I watched seasons 1-6 in a span of 3 months last year, it was magical because I was totally immersed in the story and the journey and didn't give two fucks about some spotty dialogue or a badly directed sequence. It's a marathon and not a sprint. GoT is about enjoying the ride, being patient, and for all of us who got immersed in the story it's beautiful and incredible to see some of the payoffs of the past episode, from dragons burning WW, to all those crazy characters coming together and fighting for their survival as a team, to the Daenerys and Jon relationship and so much more that has happened this season.

I love that I can analyze and discuss the episodes with people after they happen, but I don't need all the bitching and complaining. I'm focusing on having a great time and seeing where they will take us next. As much as some things have become a little more predictable (we were all waiting for dragons to show up and save the day), we still have no clue what will happen next and that is awesome.

[Lottery]

...I was totally immersed in the story and the journey and didn't give two fucks about some spotty dialogue or a badly directed sequence. It's a marathon and not a sprint. GoT is about enjoying the ride, being patient, and for all of us who got immersed in the story.

On that note, I think this is what a lot of fans miss the most. Some fans do want everything to be slow and clear, each and every sequence followed through carefully, every conversation being on screen etc. GOT is unconventional fantasy for most but arguably the most attractive aspect of fantasy is possibility of getting lost in the world and story and previous seasons probably catered to those fans very well. Everyone expects the climax of the show to speed things up but I don't think anyone expected things to go this fast. For a lot of people, GOT was about letting things unfold gradually, they probably consider S7 to be very pretty cliff notes in a way.
Of course, the reality is that GOT cannot be the show it once was because we're in the third act, we're at a point of the story where the old rules no longer apply and the writing just isn't there to support it. I am very interested in seeing how GRRM continues the story (whenever the books come out).

[Jeremy Blackman]

There's probably an interview about this somewhere, but I suspect it has to do with being able to release the final season in a timely manner. Production time increases as the spectacle increases. And with this story, the spectacle is increasing and not letting up. It's already going to take them quite a long time to deliver these final 13 episodes. Imagine how long it would take to produce 20.

I would also guess this: D&D are uncomfortable filling in too many details in this final stretch when all they have to go on is GRRM's bullet points. Better to keep it streamlined than attempt to do a full-blown imitation of Martin's gradually unfolding tapestry. They are really doing the best they can.

That's just where we are, and it's no one's fault but Martin's. We are going to get two different endings to this story. (Assuming, you know, those books get written.)

[Kal]

We are going to get two different endings to this story. (Assuming, you know, those books get written.)

I am hoping that everyone is aligned enough so that doesn't happen though. It would suck to have to very different endings, especially knowing the TV one will come first and the book one would probably end up being better. It's hard to imagine a better ending after you have already seen it (as long as the TV ending doesn't suck.)

[Jeremy Blackman]

Subhead from a new Vox article today: "Where did those big chains come from? And many, many other questions."

This kind of trash is all over the internet right now. There were chains somewhere beyond the wall. The Night King acquired them. Question answered. WHO CARES? Are people really this bored?

I just have a queasy feeling, like this is yet another show where many fans will be determined to sabotage their own experience in the final stretch. If you actively try to erode your suspension of disbelief, you will be successful.

[Lottery]

I am hoping that everyone is aligned enough so that doesn't happen though. It would suck to have to very different endings, especially knowing the TV one will come first and the book one would probably end up being better. It's hard to imagine a better ending after you have already seen it (as long as the TV ending doesn't suck.)

GRRM talks a lot about being a gardener instead of an architect in terms of writing but I can't imagine he doesn't have some sort of endpoint he's focused on. He must have some vague idea of how certain characters will meet, how they'll manage the Westeros crisis, how the WW get vanquished, which main characters live and die etc
He's mentioned a bittersweet ending which seems to imply that some key decisions have been made.

It's safe to assume some of the most crucial elements will be in place in both show and story. How we get to the end is anybody's guess. There's a whole bunch of notable discrepancies between the book and the show. There is one character with a ridiculous amount of potential story significance that has been cut entirely from the show. So we might see a very different story towards the end. For dedicated fans, they'll get to experience the delight of Jon meeting Dany amongst other scenes in a relatively fresh new way.

A lot of fans have reached the stage where they think the books are never coming out but I'm really, really hoping the dude manages to put out the last books and to do it well. It will be fascinating to compare the two works.

EDIT:
GRRM:

How independent are the showrunners from you? Simply put: could they save the life of a character you've decided to kill? Or could they kill someone who's still alive in your books?"

"They are independent. They can do whatever they want. I don't have any power... any contractual right to [stop them]. I consult with them. I talk to them on a regular basis. Of course, years ago, we had a series of very long meetings, where I told them some of the big twists and turns and huge events that were coming in the last few books. So they've been touching [on] some of these, and doing some of the reveals, but they have also been departing in various ways.

The biggest one is one that you just mentioned: probably right now, right as we talk, there are close to 20 characters who are dead on the show, who are still alive in the books. Some of them are very minor characters, but also there are major characters, like Rickon Stark, Barristan Selmy, Myrcella Baratheon. All of them — dead on the show, but alive in the books.

Cool that he describes those 3 as major characters.

[Jeremy Blackman]

BOOM!

I know I've said it before, but I think this is the best episode of the series. At the very least, it stands side by side with The Winds of Winter. It was the same kind of surreal viewing experience — in some moments I couldn't believe what I was seeing because my dreams were being so thoroughly fulfilled.

What makes this episode so great? It's deeply and relentlessly character-driven. Almost in a literal sense. You feel every character's motivation propelling this thing along. Any character beat that wasn't pitch-perfect was later revealed to be part of a twist, making it more perfect. This was truly a magnificent thing to watch.

I think this is my proudest moment of GoT observation; I didn't hear it echoed anywhere, but I was 100% convinced:

Sansa confided in Littlefinger. People are going to hate that. But did she actually make a mistake? Watch that scene carefully — she actually gets a lot of information out of him. Littlefinger basically reveals that he wants Arya dead, and that Brienne might be the one to do it. So what does Sansa do? She immediately sends Brienne away so Littlefinger's plan cannot be executed.

When Sansa turned her head and said "Littlefinger," I literally started clapping and continued to do so at various points throughout that spectacular scene. It was the most paying payoff of all payoffs. I still can't believe it actually happened. God bless this show.

I'm interested in what lands and territory Cersei will attempt to claim while she has the chance. Does anyone have an idea? Will she overextend and get caught up in the battle anyway? Who are we kidding, of course she will. The Golden Company could be a fascinating thing here, too. From what I understand, they are mostly Westerosi exiles who want to return home. Will they be inspired by Daenerys & Jon's heroism and switch sides? Who are we kidding, of course they will. That little scene with Tyrion tempting Bronn might even foreshadow this development. I can see Bronn leading the Golden Company, too, since he's also a mercenary. That would be an epic way for him to switch sides, which would also prove his loyalty beyond just words.

So it looks like Viserion breathes a kind of blue flame. I'd guess it's some kind of energy magic, rather than frost or fire. In fact, I'm having a very specific flashback to my WoW-playing days — there was a spell called Frostfire Bolt. It didn't deal Frost damage or Fire damage; it dealt Frostfire damage. Simply its own thing.

And just watch, someone will complain that the ice dragons GRRM wrote about breathed freezing cold, not any kind of fire. But those were living ice dragons, not undead Targaryen dragons.

[Warning: fan-bashing ahead]

The mindless orgy of nitpicking that's spanned the last seven days seems even more dumb and petty now. And I bet a lot of those fans and critics were watching the first half of this episode with their arms crossed, determined to sabotage their own experience.

This urge to have all the explanations now is a bizarre approach to fiction that I still don't understand. People absolutely freaked out over things that they'd have the answers to just a week later. Patience is hard.

I'm not going to say I'm not guilty of this. I hated the Sansa rape storyline with every fiber of my being, and I was determined to believe that any characterization to come from that would be ill-gotten gains that I would not accept. And yet... it paid off. Sansa learned and was hardened and got revenge. Her character would not be in the same place without that suffering. Not fast enough, at least. In the real world, trauma usually does not make you a stronger and more powerful person, but against all odds they've successfully done that with Sansa. I have to admit I was wrong. You might say I couldn't have known at the time, because the payoff seemed catastrophically unlikely and would not arrive for a very long time. TLDR: it's kind of worth it to keep an open mind.

[polkablues]

I laughed out loud at the Greyjoy sailor dude kneeing Theon in the groin to no effect, and I'm still not sure if that moment was brilliant or moronic.

[Lottery]

Possibly the best episode of the season.

This season was kinda silly and weak in some parts but it was endlessly entertaining and finally brought everything together for the endgame.

So many good things about this episode.

- All three Lannisters were at the top of their game. In the past, the show was often at its best when it was Lannisters talking. Good to see we have them top tier Lannister scenes again. Lena Headey was so good in the Tyrion and Jaime scenes, I became interested in Cersei again- even if her plans are crazier than ever.
- Overall, just a strong character driven episode loaded with great little interactions.
- Great to see Jaime growing a backbone. I was so scared The Mountain was going to do something. But finally, finally, Jaime, thank god.
- Snow falling on KL was stunning
- The Hound and Brienne talking was a great moment.
- I totally knew that Qyburn was going to hop out of his seat out of curiosity, but it was still very fun to see.
- They cleared up Bran's powers and now we know the extent of his abilities- past and present but only if he's actively looking for it.
- I was so happy to see see Theon stand and being to prove himself again. This time, I'm convinced he'll become the man he was always meant to be. In a way, this was the best thing about the episode. Seeing him stumble into the sand and splash his face with seawater. So bloody good. Alfie Allen has always been the best of the younger GOT actors.
- I was absolutely thrilled to see the Winterfell storyline being resolved so entertainingly after being awful un-enjoyable viewing for most of the season.
- I'm kind of concerned what Tyrion told Cersei to 'convince' her to join and why he was so concerned looking while skulking around on the boat.
- Silly Rhaegar, naming two of his sons Aegon. Also, wow, Rhaegar. Good casting too, him and Viserys look very similar. Rhaegar's still a douchehole.
- I'm hoping Tormund and Beric are doing okay. Last scene was hectic.

I'll stop there because I'll be listing things for almost every scene.

I laughed out loud at the Greyjoy sailor dude kneeing Theon in the groin to no effect, and I'm still not sure if that moment was brilliant or moronic.

It was pretty damn goofy but I liked that Theon started to grin. I can't remember the last time I saw him with an expression like that.

[Sleepless]

I like-like GOT, not love-love. The past couple of seasons, although they undoubtedly had their moments, never really lived up to the thrill of the first two or three seasons for me. Also, I'm not a GOT obsessive in that I will scour the internet for theories, and I've not read the books, so I'll freely admit I've maybe missed out on a lot of the details that super fans are aware of. Basically, I've depended on you guys to fill in the gaps for me. So thanks for that.

I've just caught up with the entirely of this season over the past week. Not sure 6 eps in a week technically counts as bingewatching, but that's what I've done. All in time to read the past several pages of this thread ahead of watching last night's finale (after I watched TP, of course.) In the context of the type of viewer I am of this show, I've really enjoyed this season. We're in the third act now, and things are picking up. We're back at the levels of action and excitement of the show's early seasons, before it became bloated, meandering, and slow. I'm all in favor of this faster pacing, and seeing different groups of characters finally come together for the first time - or reunite - has been a joy. And it's happened almost every episode. The weakest parts have been the Winterfell story (although worth enduring to finally see the end of Littlefinger) and Jamie's fakeout death. Although I do think they could have painted Littlerfinger as a bit more of a Big Villain throughout the season. But that's a nitpick. It was still a great scene and so nice to see him gone.

Also just wanted to say that I agree with a lot of what's already been said by others here over the course of the season. This show has become (genuinely or artificially?) a zeitgeisty show that the gods of social media demand is watched on a weekly basis, lest ye be spoiled. I've pretty much skimmed past anything GOT-related, and made it through the past 7 weeks completely unspoiled. But a lot of what I've noticed does seem to be hype-y for click's sake. People who write stuff for web clicks have been told that GOT gets clicks, so there's apparently a lot of crap out there. Either OMG! hyperbole or terminally unsatisfied nitpicking. I'm not interested in either. Thanks to all of you for calling that out too. It's entertainment for me, and this season has delivered on the promise of the setup for sure.

Might as well throw my hat in the ring for a prediction on how this all turns out... Cerei becomes increasingly irrelevant, a great ironic ending would be King's Landing overtaken by winter, she dies clinging on to the iron throne, but with none of the power it once represented. Meanwhile, Jon and Dany rule as leaders of the people from Winterfell, the new capital of what survives of Westeros. Because the North is the only place that has been preparing for the coming winter. Of course, I'm also anticipating massive fallout from Dany once Jon's true parentage is revealed - without proof, she'll assume it's a plot to usurp her claim to the throne.

[Kal]

Might as well throw my hat in the ring for a prediction on how this all turns out... Cerei becomes increasingly irrelevant, a great ironic ending would be King's Landing overtaken by winter, she dies clinging on to the iron throne, but with none of the power it once represented. Meanwhile, Jon and Dany rule as leaders of the people from Winterfell, the new capital of what survives of Westeros. Because the North is the only place that has been preparing for the coming winter. Of course, I'm also anticipating massive fallout from Dany once Jon's true parentage is revealed - without proof, she'll assume it's a plot to usurp her claim to the throne.

I like the idea of Cersei just becoming irrelevant as opposed to suffering a horrible death. It would be much worse for her to be alive and powerless than to die. Reminds me of Uncle Junior in The Sopranos, which at one point was Tony's biggest thread only to end up old, sick, sad and alone.

Also, the idea of winter coming full force and destroying Kings Landing is possible. Remember Daenerys' dream at the end of season 2 when she sees the Iron Throne covered in snow and the palace with no roof, etc? Maybe that is a premonition.

That wall coming down though. I wish the old men at the Citadel could see that happening and shit their pants. I can't help but think it would have been so much cooler if they skipped that ending in the previous episode, and we suddenly unexpectedly saw Viserion show up at the end of the finale instead. That would have been insane.

[Jeremy Blackman]

But a lot of what I've noticed does seem to be hype-y for click's sake. People who write stuff for web clicks have been told that GOT gets clicks, so there's apparently a lot of crap out there. Either OMG! hyperbole or terminally unsatisfied nitpicking.

The worst one I read last week (which I can't find right now) argued that the rift between Sansa and Arya was a failure of creativity resulting from having no women in the writer's room. Because the 2-3 dudes writing this show simply can't understand a sister relationship. It was a really bad take that of course turned out to be completely wrong.

Then there was this, which seems demonstrably false and is also a super bizarre argument to make, but it's actually just dumb clickbait so who cares I guess:

Jon and Dany Have More Chemistry in This Photo Than In All of Game of Thrones

I also just skimmed a couple articles that ranted about all the unresolved things in the show, and how this was destroying the season, such a problem, etc. (one example here). How profoundly stupid is it to complain about unresolved plots in the penultimate episode of a season? That's when we should have the MOST unresolved things so they can be resolved in the FINALE! Jesus Christ. Anyway it's fun to just go down their lists and check things off... resolved, wrong, resolved, resolved, wrong.

Put simply, it's easy to nitpick, but it's quite hard (and not provocative enough) to describe how and why something is amazing. "Game of Thrones is actually great"... I don't see that headline generating many clicks.

Edit: LOL, when you search for "Game of Thrones is actually great" (without quotes) these are results you get on the first page:

- Is Game of Thrones really that good?
- Is Game of Thrones actually good? We chew it over
- Ask Alan: How Good Is 'Game Of Thrones' Really?
- 9 Reasons 'Game of Thrones' Is Actually a Terrible Show
- Why Game Of Thrones Is Actually A Terrible Show