***** CAUTION: SPOILERS AHEAD..... BUT SOME "GOOD NEWS" ALSO *****
Someone (Anoymous) that watched the movie, commented (at CigsandRevines) this:
"By the way, I had the pleasure of being at the screening as well and the shot of two people jumping off a boat is not in the movie. That entire scene of Freddie and the army counselor guy from the first teaser is not in the movie. The shot of Freddie with his arm on a dresser and pointing a gun is not in the movie. The shot of Freddie hanging himself over the side of a boat above the water is not in the movie. The shot of Freddie walking around a corner and along the brick wall is not in the movie. The shot of Freddie waiting in a ditch and chasing a passing vehicle is not in the movie. Plus for a lot of the scenes that ARE in the movie, they used a lot of alternate takes for the trailers. So the experience of seeing the movie can actually be FRESH."[/i
*********** END OF SPOILERS
^ That's probably the best news I've heard... Now I know that no matter how many times I've seen and dissected the trailer. I will be watching something entirely new. :)
On the other hand, it's a shame. Because some of those shots and scenes looked really magnificent.
***** CAUTION: SPOILERS AHEAD.....
*********** END OF SPOILERS
***** CAUTION: SPOILERS AHEAD.....
*********** END OF SPOILERS
It’s about traveling half way around the world because we’re scared, because we’re searching for something, because we want to find someone to believe in us.That sounds a little like Antonioni's The Passenger, looks like it's a bit more than just a visual reference.
It’s about traveling half way around the world because we’re scared, because we’re searching for something, because we want to find someone to believe in us.That sounds a little like Antonioni's The Passenger, looks like it's a bit more than just a visual reference.
So the San Francisco screening happened, right?
No one wants to comment?
Above All, I am a Thread. An Official Spoiler Thread, Just Like YouGo, go, GO!
and this is a classic PTA-PSH showcase! He throws in all our favorite PSH/PTA bells and whistles! Ham! Silly faces! Lancaster Dodd is a total theatre kid. he's great and such a diverse character.. you love him because he means well.
But it's Joaquin at bat, and he fuckin kills it. what a feral animal, even physically speaking. he transforms.
I will say that I don't think one needs more than one viewing to start figuring anything out about it. It's all there, right in front of you, clear as day. You'll know what you've seen and you'll know what it means but it will take a little while to figure out how you feel about all of that. In the meantime, you'll be thrilled with the profoundly good filmmaking. The man knoooows where the camera needs to be, and when (editing). It's stripped down, simplified, distilled. It's his least flashy film. The actors and the words have nowhere to hide.
Lancaster Dodd is a total theatre kid. he's great and such a diverse character.. you love him because he means well.
I will say that I don't think one needs more than one viewing to start figuring anything out about it. It's all there, right in front of you, clear as day. You'll know what you've seen and you'll know what it means but it will take a little while to figure out how you feel about all of that. In the meantime, you'll be thrilled with the profoundly good filmmaking. The man knoooows where the camera needs to be, and when (editing). It's stripped down, simplified, distilled. It's his least flashy film. The actors and the words have nowhere to hide.
2. What was Peggy upset at Lancaster about when she jerked him off into the sink? It seemed like this was a reaction to Freddie's tryst with Lancaster's "Daughter".
Spoiler Warning in Spoiler Thread
I'm not ready to answer your other questions yet, but2. What was Peggy upset at Lancaster about when she jerked him off into the sink? It seemed like this was a reaction to Freddie's tryst with Lancaster's "Daughter".
Drinking. I believe the words were "you have to give up the hooch". This is in line with the next scene where she tells Freddie to stop boozing or leave the house.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
SPOILERS
1. isn't.
no one's got any idea about the desert manuscript? or even the motorcyle scene?
The film just washed over me like a "hazy fever dream" as somebody else put it. It was angry, it was drunk, it was dark, it was hilarious (HILARIOUS), it was brutal, it was dreamy/hazy, it was beautiful, it was endearing, it was a concoction of feelings...it's a film that needs to be viewed so many times. It is EASILY PTA's most DENSE work to date. EASILY. This one is for the analysts, for the intuitionist...the scenes are so thick. Some of the greatest sequences ever put on film. THIS IS A FUCKING EXPERIENCE.
thinking about it now though, lancaster and peggy aren't exactly thrilled or sure of the prodigal son's return, but i wonder if that has to do with freddie's self actualization (peggy storming off saying he doesn't want to be helped, a reflection of freddie's actual state of mind. whether he's beyond help and insane, or the process is a fallacy, he no longer wants to be helped, at least by them), and that the scene essentially ends with the master absolving him gives closure to freddie's struggle against himself. he's free to be the animal he is. that the master's last gesture is to serenade him recalls the first processing scene where freddie's gateway into opening up is remembering doris singing to him. i would totally buy that hearing about doris's life without him is a form of catharsis for him, and the first thing he does when he emancipates himself from the master is goes to a bar and finally gets laid. it's a dubious triumph but it, for me, is like the end of raging bull. he's come to terms with himself.
And I just realized what I assume was an obvious parallel between Freddie making a concoction that he completely improvises each time yet people seem to drink it and enjoy it and come back for more and The Cause.
A question for folks who've seen the film: is The Master dedicated to someone in the closing credits? Punch-Drunk Love was dedicated to Ted Demme, There Will Be Blood to Robert Altman. Thanks!
Dana Stevens reconsiders The Master:
http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/movies/2012/09/paul_thomas_anderson_s_the_master_reviewed_again_.html
you are right about it causing enlightenment Pubrick
BTW: I laughed when he says he is a nuclear physicist. no you ain't. that is high science. makes his character funny
maybe a tragic part of the film, is that Dodd does help people, his techniques work, but they work too well.
I forgot to ask when I was on yesterday but did it explain why Freddie was with the 16 year old girl Doris? I missed part of that scene because I went to the bathroom.
Also, When id it became cool to call every single movie that is released "pretentious"..
When movies tell you everything about the plot and characters and neatly wrap it up in the end, it often feels like this characters only exist for the time that we're seeing. But the "Swiss cheese" nature of the film, as Jeremy Blackman put it, gives the sense that these characters live outside of what we're shown in the movie. The end of the film is simply the end of what we see of the characters. We don't need everything explained and justified to us.
BUT WHAT ABOUT THE MANUSCRIPT?!
AND THE DREAM?!
THE MOTORCYCLES?!?!
http://twitchfilm.com/2012/09/jason-gorbers-cineruminations-70mm-4k-and-the-master-split-personality.html
Really fascinating and in-depth article on the process of shooting on 65mm/35mm and the process of printing to 70mm, with comparisons between the 70mm projection and 4K projection. Good stuff!
No spoilers.
Also, what is with the dragon analogy during his wedding speech? I didn't get that part at all.I've seen it once, and will be seeing it again tomorrow. May as well comment a little briefly before I go more in depth with what will probably be a different interpretation than most people here.
"Freddie was cured alright." The protagonist having sex with the naked woman on top in profile, the only difference this time real instead of imagined, in private.
Also, what is with the dragon analogy during his wedding speech? I didn't get that part at all.
Oh, the gaps and mysteries definitely merit discussion. I didn't mean to discourage that. I just don't think they should be used against the film, to describe those parts as "shoddy storytelling" or "dumb" or "lazy" (samsong's words). I think we should take a moment to figure things out before we jump to those conclusions.
dodd's words in that dreamed phone call is the loving beckoning of the prodigal son's father (more on this later) and such a beautiful visualization of freddie's dire need for companionship, that his subconscious has resorted to wish fulfillment.
one question about a minor detail. when freddie asks peggy about elizabeth, she says, "dfc." (dcf?) what the shit does that mean?
one question about a minor detail. when freddie asks peggy about elizabeth, she says, "dfc." (dcf?) what the shit does that mean?
For me it was the naked sing along that reminded me most of Kubrick. It brought back feelings from EWS for obvious reasons but I could also see Alex from Clockwork imagining those girls frolicking about. So cool.
Geographically speaking, Where is Freddie cutting the cabbage, because isn't it some place in china? this may explain the, "gone to china," section and also why Dodd sings it.
A really strange parallel just occurred to me: Dodd serenading Freddie with "I'd Like to Get You on a Slow Boat to China" & Freddie's "Gone to China" message from one of the trailers.
On the surface it seems like Freddie should be writing that message on some bulletin board in the Master's school as he leaves at the end. But that's not the case — he's dressed in a sailor suit and is obviously younger. Which on its own makes absolutely no sense. It only makes sense as a figurative (and almost Lynchian) connection to Dodd's serenade. Sort of an answer to it... like he's gone to China by himself, not on a slow boat, and not with Dodd.
Geographically speaking, Where is Freddie cutting the cabbage, because isn't it some place in china? this may explain the, "gone to china," section and also why Dodd sings it.
I'm pretty sure this took place somewhere in central/northern California and the other workers were just immigrants from various other places. I think the time gap between when he runs away from the farm and when he gets on Dodd's yacht is relatively small. Part of the reason he hops on the boat is to escape (physically and mentally) that he may have killed that old farmer.
Yo neil he says his location was Salinas,California also that's why there immigrants working there i believe there Filipino cause that's how America does it.
He changes, but instead of 90%, its closer to 2% like PTA discusses in an early Creative Screenwriting interview.
The doubles and reoccurring motif is strong throughout. Peggy and Doris bear a striking resemblance to each other and ultimately leave Freddie. The man getting his picture taken at the department store coincidentally looks just like PSH.
He changes, but instead of 90%, its closer to 2% like PTA discusses in an early Creative Screenwriting interview.
can you link this interview?
The production design of the last scene of TWBB was inspired by 'A Clockwork Orange' (PTA said it in an ASC article). I'm wondering how many of you guys feel that the design of the final scene (not the last shot) of The Master was inspired by 2OO1? That whole room exuded 2OO1 to me. It was shot/composed/blocked so hypnotically. The lighting behind Master is what really set off that idea to me...There's so much to say about that last fucking scene...can't wait for more viewings...!
Listened to the Filmspotting podcast on my way to work this morning. One thing that was mentioned that I didn't catch on to or haven't seen mentioned as I casually scroll through Master summaries while at work, was that Freddie may have been impotent. He is completely obsessed with sex but never actually has any. As mentioned in the podcast he falls asleep at the dinner, He has an innocent relationship with a young girl and turns away the advances of Dodd's daughter. It's not until the end of the film he actually has sex. So maybe the Cause helped Freddie or as much as Freddie wanted to be helped.
To Polka and Badass,
I really enjoyed/agree with many of your perceptions of the film. I have to ask though: Do you really think Freddie has the perception and hindsight to see through The Master/The Cause like that? I ask because there is this boyish/animalistic aura around Freddie that almost makes it seem impossible for him to really read that far into things. His character is so confused and lost that I can barely believe for him to be thinking this far into it.
I think Freddie's goal, even if it's not a fully conscious goal, is to get to that Doris-ready state. Doris herself is not necessarily the goal. Right?
Would it be too bold to say Freddie is more interested in self-improvement than any other character?
Also, I'm really liking this line of interpretation. The movie being about self-improvement at its core would bring it nicely back to Scientology (surprisingly?), with an original twist.
I'm not sure there's a fundamental difference there. The self-improvement is initially the means to an end. It's not until after he discovers that he missed the boat with Doris that it becomes clear his self-improvement was the end itself.
COITUS / DOUCHE
The Autercast (http://traffic.libsyn.com/auteurcast/themaster_.m4a) featuring our very own modage!!! :bravo:
Please excuse the trailing off, "ummmm"-s, "you know"-s, and describing everything as great. I missed my podcast training class.
Please excuse the trailing off, "ummmm"-s
Don't be ridiculous, that was fantastic. You could have your own podcast.
On another note, isn't it getting sort of late for PTA's Charlie Rose appearance?
Can any of you guys rank 'The Master' in PTA's filmography? I've been having a tough time with it whenever it comes up in conversation. It might just not be wise to rank it until time does its thing I guess.
Before The Master I was: 1. TWBB 2. PDL & Mag(tied) 3. Boogie 4.Sydney
I think someone mentioned PTA describing him as a monkey, but I could be misremembering.
It's all about the love story. Everything else is secondary. There's so much I didn't pick up on the first time. Master and Freddie exchange these loving gazes all throughout their relationship, especially during their courtship, and sometimes even across rooms.I still can't help but feel like there was some degree of unrequitedness between the two of them, or at least that each had a very different sort of love for the other than vice versa. While Dodd's love for Freddie is very strongly of the romantic variety (not implying homosexual inclinations in the slightest), Freddie's love for Dodd seems different than that. The giddiness that you described struck me much more as a very young child to a parent, or (yet again) a dog to his master. That sense of being completely attached to a person while only having the vaguest rudimentary understanding of what they're saying to you. Dodd loved Freddie, but we need a different word to describe Freddie's feelings toward Dodd. Piety, adulation, I don't know.
The intensity of their love is almost jaw-dropping on the second viewing. Whenever they're doing something fun together, Freddie gets absolutely giddy. He usually starts giggling and smiling uncontrollably.
I still can't help but feel like there was some degree of unrequitedness between the two of them, or at least that each had a very different sort of love for the other than vice versa. While Dodd's love for Freddie is very strongly of the romantic variety (not implying homosexual inclinations in the slightest), Freddie's love for Dodd seems different than that. The giddiness that you described struck me much more as a very young child to a parent, or (yet again) a dog to his master. That sense of being completely attached to a person while only having the vaguest rudimentary understanding of what they're saying to you. Dodd loved Freddie, but we need a different word to describe Freddie's feelings toward Dodd. Piety, adulation, I don't know.
More than anything, this thread has helped me realize that while it probably won't end up my favorite PTA film, it's easily his most complex. There's so much to this movie that's impossible to pick up on a single viewing.
There's this cool little moment when Freddie's going window to wall, and Dodd moves him a bit so that he doesn't hit the chandelier, just one of those little subtle things.
http://movies.yahoo.com/blogs/the-reel-breakdown/jennifer-neala-page-comes-top-her-sex-scene-170308947.html
A strangely long and detailed article about the woman in the sex scene at the end. There's nothing important here, but hey, it's another article about THE MASTER and gives a little behind-the-scenes insight.
I love the bit when Freddie slams into the corner of the table and Dodd tries to get the guy sitting next to it to move it out of the way. When the guy finally realizes he's being talked to, he's only able to shift the table about an inch.
The man commented on how small Freddie was on the bench compared to Doris. But she really was very large or J is very small. Why would PT choose an actress so much bigger?
Whoa whoa, first of all, it's not like Freddie knew Doris in person before he went to find her. She wrote him a letter and he came back to find her,
Elvis Mitchell interviews Joaquin Phoenix for Vulture
I'm just saying that I think it's bullshit. I think it's total, utter bullshit, and I don't want to be a part of it. I don't believe in it. It's a carrot, but it's the worst-tasting carrot I've ever tasted in my whole life. I don't want this carrot. It's totally subjective. Pitting people against each other . . . It's the stupidest thing in the whole world. It was one of the most uncomfortable periods of my life when Walk the Line was going through all the awards stuff and all that. I never want to have that experience again. I don't know how to explain it—and it's not like I'm in this place where I think I'm just above it—but I just don't ever want to get comfortable with that part of things.
The "to the window, to the wall" (aw, skeet skeet) sequence
it's time to start preparing for PTA's backlash/downfall. by this i mean the point in his career where he becomes too good for critics or the general public to understand what he's doing. he's actually been this way since he began but ppl somehow kept up with him. i think we're coming to the Barry Lyndon part of his career where everything he does onwards will be completely misunderstood, underrated, and looked over. Barry Lyndon was characterised as "kubrick's period piece" and that was all -- but it was THE MOST REALISTIC thing he has ever done, he illuminated a world lost to darkness, he reanimated corpses, he made statues come to life. everything afterwards was misunderstood and spoken of in the same "missing the point" kinda way.. the shining "that's just his horror film.. ooh scary" -- it was, as we all know, SO - MUCH - MORE than that.
Hey guys anyone got the full mihai jr article from american cinematographer that they can post up in the thread im cheap don't want to buy the subscription. Think its like 15 pages.http://www.sendspace.com/file/9i1zac
one question about a minor detail. when freddie asks peggy about elizabeth, she says, "dfc." (dcf?) what the shit does that mean?
QuoteI thought DCF was in reference to Elizabeth? I took it to be a purposefully-unexplained "Cause-ism"/acronym like Scientologists frequently use (KSW - keep scientology working, etc.) to obscurantize their dogma. But I could be wrong
I thought it was a play on "RPF" which stands for "rehabilitation project force"QuoteThe Rehabilitation Project Force, or RPF, is a controversial program set up by the Church of Scientology Sea Organization, intended to rehabilitate members of the Sea Organization (not everyday parishioners) who have not lived up to the Church expectations or have violated certain policies. As part of this program, and in addition to the application of Scientology procedures, members do manual labor tasks around Sea Org bases. There have been some reports of overwork and mistreatment at RPF facilities,[1] and the program can take years to complete.
Maybe it means the same thing? I dunno. It's def DCF though.
Dodd can be wild and have fun with it and go fast and enjoy it, because he knows he can always come back, he is in control of himself, he has Mastered his emotions.
PTA explains that there was a scene near the end of the film that he eventually cut out, which showed Quell retracing his steps to a park bench where he had once been happy. Quell lies down on the bench, trying to travel in time; to cast himself back to a golden moment before the war. Damn it, says Anderson. He should never have cut that scene.
I definitely thought it was an error the first two times but the third time revealed it to be a trick of light.
PERSONAL COMMENTARY: This is quite an interesting article. After seeing "THE MASTER" for the first time, I had a very similar theory, that Freddie is a metaphor for the audience and the Master is a metaphor for PTA. I wrote it on IMDB and a lot of people didn't buy it. But if you look at the movie from that perspective, it makes a lot of fucking sense. Also, if anyone's got the balls and the talent to do something like that, breaking the 4th wall like that.. is PTA. The film is about CULTS, yes. About pop-CULTure, about fan-boyism, about an artist and his audience. Think about it. It adds a whole 'nother layer to the film. Can't wait for that fucking blu-ray to come out and analyze that shit.OMG, bullshit. There was another post I read elsewhere (not here) about how The Master is an antifilm. Whatever the hell that means. That it's supposed to be a bad film and that's why it's so good. Whenever someone tries to put these meanings to a film it only shows how little they understand them.
Yeah we can all laugh about Bela Tarr responding to the question "What does all that rain mean?" with "It means it's fucking raining!" To the filmmaker, it may just be because it was raining that day and he liked it, or maybe he didn't like it but had to shoot the scene anyway. But to the viewer, the rain is there and it affects the way the film is understood, and that's legit. If it wasn't legit, we couldn't really start to understand anything about a film until we learn of all the boring practical reasons of why a scene turned out the way it did. Was this scene handheld because it was planned that way, or was it because the sun was going down and they had 15 minutes to grab three shots? You'd have to find out before you could decide whether or not the handheld was meaningful for you as a viewer.
Filmmakers often don't know entirely why they're doing what they're doing; sometimes they're going with their gut
"Yeah, sure, okay, that works,"
recreating the feel of a lost era, memories, quality of light, certain faces (or something). She seemed to be talking about exactly what the film is doing with the 50s.
No.your smugness just says so much.
Fuck it. I have to say this... The more and more I think about the master being about AN ARTIST AND HIS AUDIENCE (PTA and his audience, to be more exact) The more sense it all makes. I've been thinking about this shit all day. I dont give a fuck if you like what I'm gonna say or not or whether you think it's right or wrong. I just gotta get it outta my chest.
Freddie represents the audience. Every aspect of the audience. From The "Joe popcorn" type to the "Cinematic snob/I'm better than thou" type. He can't keep a job, he's sexually obsessed, he's aggressive, his life is empty, he would love to fuck something or somebody but it seems like everytime he tries, he fails. He falls asleep, etc. Probably can't even get it up. He is looking for SOMETHING or SOMEONE that will come and make sense of all this. He wants something to make his life worthwile. This could be a perfect description of the life of any basement-dwelling fanboy.
He works as a photographer, trying to make pictures. But uses the photo-chemicals to get drunk and fucks up his life even more. Then he has that altercation with the fat dude with the mustache, the dude looks just like Hoffman, this is NOT a coincidence. Freddie (the fanboy) is trying to make his own pictures/movies but he fails, he “wants to get the lightning right”, but he fails. This failure fills him up with so much rage, he tries to choke the "hoffman looking" figure. This failure prompts him to starts looking for someone who IS making the things he wants to do… And that’s where THE MASTER comes into the picture.
Freddie asks THE MASTER, "what do you do?" Well, Master tells him he’s a WRITER (PTA writes his own movies), a DOCTOR (his movies are like medicine to us. I personally can tell you they are MY medicine for sure! Magnolia!), a nuclear physicist (talking about the photochemical process of film?), a philosopher (PTA certainly is that, whether he strives for that or not. His movies make you think and ask yourself questions about your own life), But PTA ends it by telling the fanboy: “But at the end of the day, I’m a man, JUST LIKE YOU!”. Fanboy Freddie laughs, he loves that.
PTA chose this movie to do this because of the obvious parallels between a guy who is a writer and director of movies in Hollywood and a guy who writes his own books and preaches his own religion. Everytime he puts a movie out he has to defend it and explain it, for what? “This is where we’re at? To have to explain ourselves? For what? FOR WHAT WE DO, we have to grovel?” .
I think the best and most revealing line in the whole movie is: “He’s making all this up as he goes along.. YOU DON’T SEE THAT?”. Notice how Val is almost looking into the Camera when he says that.
PTA/THE MASTER says to the audience: “If you leave here, I don’t ever wanna see you again”.. The funniest part about that line is that in one of my viewings, about 3 people walked out almost at that exact line, heh. It’s crazy now thinking back on it. PTA is telling his audience, “if you walk out of this theater, I don’t want you as a fan”. (Notice the lyrics that repeat from the “get thee behind me satan” song: “STAY WHERE YOU ARE, IT’S TOO LATE…”).
The Master says he has unlocked the secret to all this. What's Master's secret? Secret is LAUGHTER! Well, isn’t the master PTA’s funniest movie? It seems to me it is. It has a more comedic tone than anything else he's ever done, including boogie nights. This movie is a dark comedy through and through. You can tell just from the opening line. PTA is telling you that that’s the key to this movie. But FANBOY FREDDIE still doesn’t get it.
Freddie is a fanboy that attacks anybody who dares detract the master. Anybody said something about PTA? Shit.. You’ve even seen it right here in xixax, how everyone always gets so defensive about him. It's not only PTA fans though. It's fans in general. This CULT that gets created around things or people. The movie is about a CULT alright.. About pop CULTture. All those fucking zombies.
FREDDIE AND THE MASTER IN THE JAIL CELL:
- FAN: You lied to me PTA! You showed me stuff in the trailers that isn’t in this movie! You said the movie was about scientology and it’s not about that at all! What the fuck is this? You make all this stupid shit up!
- PTA: FUCK YOU! I never promised you shit.. You made up your own expectations! I never told you the movie was about that! I never said what was in the trailers was gonna be in the movie!
- FAN: Fuck you!
- PTA: No, fuck you! Dude, I’m the only one that likes you. You cant keep a job, you cant fuck anyone. You’re a fucking mess. But I still like you, You’re my audience. Without YOU, I’m nothing.
And what does PTA/THE MASTER say about the detractors/people who don’t like this movie?
He says: “They’re necessary. For without negatives, we would be all positives. Therefore zero charge”. it’s fucking brilliant.
Another thing that suggests that Freddie is the audience: Notice how Freddie laughs at literally EVERY joke in the movie. Whether the joke’s said by him or someone else. That’s one of the first things I noticed in my first viewing, is that it seemed like everytime I laughed, Freddie was laughing too. You could hear his laugh coming from the speakers, blending in with the laugh of the audience.
Not too mention Freddie is constantly seen as an audience member. Not only when the master is giving his speeches, but there’s a scene where he’s actually SITTING IN A THEATER, looking at US. We never see the cinema screen he’s watching, he’s looking directly at US. Same with the shots of him looking at the master giving speeches, he's always facing directly at the Camera, almost like he’s a mirror of US as we watch the movie.
The story of the dragon is the key to all this.. "This is where we're at with it. I say "stay" dragon stays. I say "sit", dragon sits. Now I got him on a leash, and HE STAYS ON MY COMMAND. That's where we're at with now! It stays on my command". This story of the dragon, is not only a metaphor for FREDDIE and THE MASTER , but a metaphor for PTA and his audience. That's where his at with it now. We're staying on his command. It's too easy for him, that's why he's trynna take it to the next level by making a movie as complex and enigmatic as this, and having he movie break the 4th wall as brilliantly as this.
Some things From the script:
MASTER: (giving his speech about “the secret is laughter”) “Funny enough, The source of all is… YOU ”
Which relates to when Amy Adams says earlier: “He(PTA) has been WRITING all night, YOU seem to INSPIRE something in him.” OF COURSE, because FREDDIE is THE AUDIENCE, and the movie is about PTA and his audience. So of course, WE are the source of his inspiration. Literally.
In one part of the script, a Girl sings: “The APA and AMA will have to kiss our asses!”… AMA stands for AMERICAN MEDICINAL ASSOCIATION and APA stands for AMERICAN PSYCHOLOGICAL ASSOCIATION… But this could also be PTA’s clever way of saying the “MPAA will have to kiss our asses!”.. MPAA is the Motion Picture Association of America. Those are the guys that rate movies.
I don’t got anything else, and I don’t really know how to express myself very well, so this comes off as very rough (English is my 3rd language). But you get the point of my theory. The movie is about PTA and the AUDIENCE. THE MASTER is PTA, FREDDIE is THE AUDIENCE. THE MASTER is PTA’S “2001”. The monolith was THE CINEMA SCREEN and Kubrick was commenting on the power it had.. PTA is breaking the 4th wall in that exact way. PTA is brilliantly making a commentary on US, as an audience. By DELIBERATELY writing The Master as an insubstantial, pretentious story for the purpose of COMMENTING ON insubstantial, pretentious stories and the way people respond to them!
But then again, I could be wrong. I don’t know. I don’t care. I still stand by my theory though.
I love this movie. I love all the layers it has and all the meanings you can give to it. Even if you think I'm dead wrong. Gotta admit it makes for a pretty interesting conversation.
No.your smugness just says so much.
I too hate it when people think freely about ambiguities within great works of art. It deserves a ripe and intellectually motivated, "no."
Thanks for your contribution toward someone sharing their ideas in an art forum. We need more of YOU in the art community at large. Well, that and more cute little fox-news-esque diagrams, like the one you shit out earlier in this thread.
Feel free to p.m me the misspellings and grammatical errors found above, unless you enjoy being openly smug about grammar too.
Because after all there's no way anyone can comprehend, pr has ever comprehended any sentence that has a few misspellings or grammatical errors in them.
oh yeah, back on topic, what a great movie. i really like it.
No.your smugness just says so much.
I too hate it when people think freely about ambiguities within great works of art. It deserves a ripe and intellectually motivated, "no."
Thanks for your contribution toward someone sharing their ideas in an art forum. We need more of YOU in the art community at large. Well, that and more cute little fox-news-esque diagrams, like the one you shit out earlier in this thread.
Feel free to p.m me the misspellings and grammatical errors found above, unless you enjoy being openly smug about grammar too.
Because after all there's no way anyone can comprehend, pr has ever comprehended any sentence that has a few misspellings or grammatical errors in them.
oh yeah, back on topic, what a great movie. i really like it.
Except ono was right.
I too hate it when people draw such reaching and strange interpretations of great art.
Your sarcasm sucks. And maybe check your own grammar before calling out others.
I disagree with you on your four points.
A work of art can't have an incorrect interpretation? It's completely subjective?
Especially don't understand point #4.
Some people are trying to read way too much subtext in the movie.
Quit. let's talk about something cool.lol. my new goto is calvin candie's "let's keep it funny" and of course you gotta deliver it with the accent
(Please forgive the ridiculous length of what follows; but I thought this was the best time and place to finally think-things-through and offload these ideas, which hopefully won’t prove to be too boring.)
I think the above analysis of the “first processing scene” in “The Master” might have missed its true purpose; and that a different reading might unlock more of this film’s rewarding mysteries. (SPOILERS, perhaps, below):
I believe that Hoffman’s character (who isn’t “The Master” of the title, by the way; that’s a shadowy throne that’s actually inhabited by his wife) is able to intuit Joaquin’s personality so perfectly –because he sees HIMSELF in the younger man; and each provocative question that he asks and hits right on the nose confirms their “link” more and more.
First, he sees the younger man’s “true uniqueness” in an ever-more-homogeneous Post-War America: he recognizes Joaquin’s wild romantic recklessness and will to violence, along with his restless desire for escape (all things which Hoffman has had to deny himself, now that he’s married and locked into his ever-tightening role as leader of a growing secular/psychological “spiritual” movement); and he also realizes their shared driving “need” to be intoxicated (which is the first thing that bonds these two together, their one-of-a-kind “secret drink,” which Joaquin mixed from stolen ingredients, and which Hoffman “found” and finished while Joaquin was passed out on the borrowed yacht…and which evolves, with each new alcoholic invention whipped-up by Joaquin, into a special ritual between them, a relationship that Hoffman tries to keep hidden from his all-seeing wife –like his desires for infidelity and “freedom”).
But where Hoffman has had to maintain a certain very strict public and familial sobriety, Joaquin has been able to indulge in all his crazy animal “honesty” (to destructive excess, it’s clear, and driven by things he doesn’t understand --to the point of letting an unrequited, disappointing “first crush” on a young girl haunt him, becoming a heart-sick neurosis that drives him to sullen alcoholic impotence).
But the “interview/analysis” scene actually builds to the breakthrough moment of Hoffman “uncovering” Joaquin’s deepest secret: That he’s had sex with a family member –his aunt. That Joaquin is able to admit this (and all the rest, but that most especially) so unashamedly makes Hoffman gush that he’s the “bravest boy he’s ever seen.”
From his own repressed nature (combined with the fact that he’s sought out a relationship with a woman whose dominant personality easily controls him –both mentally and sexually, with something as simple as an impersonal 20-second in-the-sink handjob) it’s my supposition that Hoffman also had an incestuous relationship with an older (“stronger”) member of his family in his past –a “dirty” relationship that he’s never been able to “transcend” or admit aloud. (This may have been an older woman –but it might have even been a man, as…) --Furthermore, Hoffman’s own son seems to be a victim of Hoffman’s “control” –if not actually sexually, than certainly psychosexually…as he is also seen to be sullen and “bitch resentful” and unable to break free of his father’s manipulation; until, at the end of the film, he is eventually seen, in England, to be a “broken and remade” (if utterly repressed) man, dressing exactly like his father, and acting completely differently, like a professional scion and “corporate lieutenant,” resigned to his role in the hierarchy of his parent’s “cult-like business.”
Anyway, this reading helps make it clearer that Hoffman is not an utter fraud –that his perceptiveness and prompting in fact cures Joaquin; so that by the end of the film, Joaquin is not only able to break free of Hoffman (who watches in joyous pride as he escapes on the motorcycle –something his own son would never have been able to do), but is able to finally confront his crippling past, as after so many terrified years he can at last “go home,” hoping to face the girl whose “absent love” so possessed him; and by talking with her family and finding out that she was able to move on with her life, he’s ultimately able to see this sad relationship for what it truly was –and in doing so, completely break its hold over him.
This allows, by the movie’s conclusion, the scene where Joaquin is able to again have a sexual relationship in England –without having to rely any more on the crutch of booze. (He’s even learned how the “questioning game” he learned in that first “processing scene” --a version of which he plays with the girl on the bed-- is actually a gateway to intimacy and self-reflection.) Therefore: in the film’s final image, he lays in peaceful sleep beside the “sand woman of his own creation” –meaning that he’s not controlled any longer by his
mistaken fantasies, and is finally free to love and be loved (while Hoffman is still under the thumb of his cruel Master(s) –his wife, and the role in life that he once authored, but which now has him straightjacketed).
Again, sorry for taking up so much space; and thanks for considering this.
the amount of layers this thing has, intentional or not, is increasingly astounding.
the impasse i think most people come to is some kind of crippling angst when they ask themselves "is this what the author meant." and the dissatisfaction with the answer "it doesn't matter what he meant." these statements seem to be so destructive and insurmountable to most people that they simply retreat to "well we'll never know so anything we intuit is fucking bullshit and worthless, even if it feels true, because it was not approved by the creator."
in fact, the key to something as good as the master is even closer than that, it's something personal.. it is not an acquired intelligence, it is something deeply natural. whatever that is, a quest for salvation, a yearning for connection, a feeling of love and pain, an elegiac response to the traumas of war, a desire for truth, anything.. it's in the film and it's in you. after you've accepted this reflection in art, then you can start to find all kinds of meaning and purpose in things you once thought worthless.
I remeber PTA saying in an audio interview that when he was 18-19, he'd pop a dvd in at the morning, afternoon and night.
I know nothing about it, I just heard it..
(Cinema near me kept it since September).
I've definitely heard/thought of this angle before, but I always get stuck when the final shot of the film of Freddie at peace with the sand-woman chronologically isn't congruent with the experiences he had. And really, that shot doesn't exactly resonate "peace", it feels more like a drunken, comfortable, last-resort safe cuddle.The most interesting thing about this shot to me is that in the background all the men are all heading off somewhere in a single file line, while Freddie is asleep. Almost like he missed the boat, or will miss the boat, literally and metaphorically. In fact, I'm not sure anyone else touched on this, but it's the only beach scene with this exact composition (the sailors leaving single file in the Background).
The fact that it's a woman "made of sand" makes it even more layered, because sand is fleeting, and Freddie is incapable of having this kind of cuddling/safe/sustained connection with a fleshed person. His master may not be a person, but his constantly moving, changing, dissolving, and building emotions are, and also what they make him latch on to. And these can be characterized as a sand-woman. It's really hard to intellectualize this, and I don't think the film is meant to completely intellectualize it, which is even more beautiful because this film is just as beautiful to intellectualize as it is to feel.Life is something that gets washed away, that must be given back, so I find there to be as much of an allegory about life, love, taming the dragon, etc than specifically speaking to Freddie's arc as a character, but i can dig it both ways (no pun intended).
He is going the opposite of what "contemplative cinema" does, and at the same time he's distancing himself of all the "narrative fat" most films have.
Well, I've seen it three times now.
I guess after reading all these comments I have few things to say, but PTA's mention of Raoul Walsh as a "nuts & bolts director" and influence here really starts to make sense after the second viewing. This film goes very directly from one thing to the next, every scene as a consequence of the last. There's almost no wasted time, no contextualization, no introductions, just the action, the moment taking place. You're there in the moment with Freddie, particularly during the first 15 minutes or so, when everything happens so fast and you start realizing it's all about him, it's all about how he's walking directly into the Cause. But after Lancaster and Freddie meet, this continues. I think that by using elipsis in this way PTA is somehow rediscovering narrative cinema for us. He is going the opposite of what "contemplative cinema" does, and at the same time he's distancing himself of all the "narrative fat" most films have. It really is a "nuts & bolts", very direct film. It may be just too direct for audiences to follow completely, which would explain why people think is pointless. They can't keep up with it's rhythm.
I think the old PTA, in the motorcycle sequence for example, would have done what he did in Boogie Nights before the attempted drug deal in Alfred Molina's house: a whole scene of "this is what we well do next". But now, we are just suddenly in the desert with barely a context or explanation of why are they there, how they got there and what does the master wants to accomplish.
The wall is dead and cold. The glass window is warm and comfy.
Freddie makes out with the Glass window. But it's angry at the wall, he punches it and breaks it.
He would much rather be with his warm inanimate object (Think of Benny Profane in "V"), then with the uncertainty and the pain of a real life girl.
He would much rather be with his warm inanimate object (Think of Benny Profane in "V"), then with the uncertainty and the pain of a real life girl.
I'm not saying is bad at all. I'm just giving an example.
*edit: in the first 10 seconds he says he'll be posting a full Master analysis later this week, didn't catch that...right on.
I was of the opinion that he improved slightly. He hasn't sobered up, but a certain amount of self-actualization seems to have occurred.
He's certainly not the same, and definitely not worse.
Who thinks Freddie changed? Who thinks he is the same animal he ever was?
what's up with the final scene with him at the beach? Did he dream all the stuff with The Cause etc?
what's up with the final scene with him at the beach? Did he dream all the stuff with The Cause etc?
No one's brought that up before, I think we all took it literally as a flashback to the first scene, juxtaposing the feral creature he was then to the man he's become. I would say above anything else that the last shot is suggesting Freddie has woken up from his dream. I like that it's an extension of the narrative showing how he 'missed the boat'.
Camera operator Colin Anderson talks working on The Master (http://www.soc.org/uploads/tx_socmagazines/2013_SAE_Linked.pdf) - page 46
All of the google doodles look like a pussy to me todaySame here.
someone has probably already found this. i'm guessing it's not a coincidence.. at the very least it's spooky. Teresa Duncan's blog features quotes from "proverbs for paranoids", two of which are
1. "You may never get to touch the Master, but you can tickle his creatures." 237
2. "The innocence of the creatures is in inverse proportion to the immorality of the Master." 241
and for those who may not remember or never knew.. Theresa Duncan, along with her partner Jeremy Blake, committed suicide after a long bout of extreme paranoia relating to scientology .
PESUDO-MASTER SPOILERS?
From the interviewer's twitter, Jenkins lead me to this about a week (?) ago.QuoteAsk PTA if Freddie Quell from THE MASTER becomes Doc in INHERENT VICE. He imagines Freddie starting something like The Source Family. #yes
(https://xixax.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmaximumfun.org%2Fimages%2Fsource_family.jpg&hash=aa04eee792c632cf044bd355d8ccb3debd2f3cc3)
https://thepointmag.com/2017/criticism/the-master-paul-thomas-anderson
I watched this amazing Vincente Minnelli movie recently. It's called The Cobweb. The opening moments focus on this anxious character played John Kerr. He's fleeing from a psychiatric clinic, and is seen desperately running across some fields for quite a while as the camera tries to keep up. I think this was done mostly in one take.
Anyway, it reminded me of that shot of Freddie running near the beginning of The Master. I guess there's just something cinematic about characters running in a sustained shot. The 400 Blows is probably the most famous example. Still, the overall vibe of this scene from The Cobweb -- the sense of distress and the terrain -- just struck me as being very similar to that moment from The Master.
At any rate, it's a really interesting film that reminded me of PTA in a few other ways, too. There's also a shot of a lake, near the end, that is in no way by the numbers, and that alone is worth the price of admission.
YES - I recently saw another Vincente Minnelli film called Some Came Running with Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin and Shirley MacLaine that really evoked The Master for me in a number of striking ways - the blocking of many scenes, the color palette, the compositions - it felt like The Master if The Master had been shot in scope...
I need to watch more Vincente Minnelli movies.
There's another, subtler musical element in ''Punch-Drunk Love.'' Throughout the film, Mr. Sandler's Barry Egan wears a suit made of the most amazing deep blue material. ''It's from, well, I always loved 'The Bandwagon,' the Vincente Minnelli musical,'' Mr. Anderson said. ''And if you watch 'Singin' in the Rain,' too, it's sort of indicative of these movies that there's a fantastic rich blue suit in just about every one of them. Look next time and you ll see them.
''So it's a little bit like a musical thing,'' Mr. Anderson said. ''It's an MGM suit.''
“I have so many good memories from that, but one that sticks out that I’ll never forget is there’s this sequence in the movie where they go to this fundraiser and someone speaks out against Dodd,” Plemons said. “He starts badgering him and berating him with questions. We’d been shooting that scene for a long time; it was almost lunch. Paul usually does quite a few takes, and it seemed like Phil was reaching a point where [he] didn’t know what he wanted. Paul had to just walk up to [him], look at his hairline, and pluck a hair out. Like, what the fuck?”
Plucking out Hoffman’s hair sounds unusual, but Anderson knew what needed to be done in order to coax the performance out of Hoffman. The hair plucking did the tick, as Plemons remembers Hoffman nailing the next take with an improvised line that would impress everyone on set and become one of “The Master’s” most shocking moments.
“With the next take he reached a place that he hadn’t in previous takes, and out comes the ‘pig fuck’ line: ‘You pig fuck!,’ Plemons said. “Then it was like, ‘Alright, that’s lunch!’ We were all just totally in awe, mouths on the floor.”
The “pig fuck” line was so memorable that Anderson kept it in when the scene in question had to be reshot at a later date in a different location with a different actor opposite Hoffman. Plemons added, “I think about that a lot. Just one of a kind, no one like him,” while also calling Hoffman “so generous, nice, and focused.”
The Unexpected Story Behind Philip Seymour Hoffman’s Improvised ‘The Master’ Line (https://www.indiewire.com/2020/06/jesse-plemons-philip-seymour-hoffman-best-moment-master-set-1202238624/)Quote“I have so many good memories from that, but one that sticks out that I’ll never forget is there’s this sequence in the movie where they go to this fundraiser and someone speaks out against Dodd,” Plemons said. “He starts badgering him and berating him with questions. We’d been shooting that scene for a long time; it was almost lunch. Paul usually does quite a few takes, and it seemed like Phil was reaching a point where [he] didn’t know what he wanted. Paul had to just walk up to [him], look at his hairline, and pluck a hair out. Like, what the fuck?”
Plucking out Hoffman’s hair sounds unusual, but Anderson knew what needed to be done in order to coax the performance out of Hoffman. The hair plucking did the tick, as Plemons remembers Hoffman nailing the next take with an improvised line that would impress everyone on set and become one of “The Master’s” most shocking moments.
“With the next take he reached a place that he hadn’t in previous takes, and out comes the ‘pig fuck’ line: ‘You pig fuck!,’ Plemons said. “Then it was like, ‘Alright, that’s lunch!’ We were all just totally in awe, mouths on the floor.”
The “pig fuck” line was so memorable that Anderson kept it in when the scene in question had to be reshot at a later date in a different location with a different actor opposite Hoffman. Plemons added, “I think about that a lot. Just one of a kind, no one like him,” while also calling Hoffman “so generous, nice, and focused.”
So after 5 years, it's quite amusing/sad to watch this interview, because RIP PSH, and Haha @ Weinstein Q. It's fluffy, but at least he got some press.
So after 5 years, it's quite amusing/sad to watch this interview, because RIP PSH, and Haha @ Weinstein Q. It's fluffy, but at least he got some press.
Also Rose was #MeTooed too.
QuoteThe “pig fuck” line was so memorable that Anderson kept it in when the scene in question had to be reshot at a later date in a different location with a different actor opposite Hoffman.
QuoteThe “pig fuck” line was so memorable that Anderson kept it in when the scene in question had to be reshot at a later date in a different location with a different actor opposite Hoffman.
I wonder what the scene was like the first time, who the other actor was, and why they re-shot it. At this point it’s hard to picture someone other than Christopher Evan Welch in that scene.
I would die for access to the PTA vault. I want to see all the early Dano-less CMBB stuff, the deleted magnolia stuff, and really just raw footage and audio between takes of him directing, watching him work with the actors and seeing them try out different shit. And I’m sure there are plenty of deleted / reshot scenes that we don’t even know about.
QuoteThe “pig fuck” line was so memorable that Anderson kept it in when the scene in question had to be reshot at a later date in a different location with a different actor opposite Hoffman.
I wonder what the scene was like the first time, who the other actor was, and why they re-shot it. At this point it’s hard to picture someone other than Christopher Evan Welch in that scene.
I would die for access to the PTA vault. I want to see all the early Dano-less CMBB stuff, the deleted magnolia stuff, and really just raw footage and audio between takes of him directing, watching him work with the actors and seeing them try out different shit. And I’m sure there are plenty of deleted / reshot scenes that we don’t even know about.
Or the deleted scenes/subplot in Phantom Thread with Reynolds' children.
QuoteThe “pig fuck” line was so memorable that Anderson kept it in when the scene in question had to be reshot at a later date in a different location with a different actor opposite Hoffman.
I wonder what the scene was like the first time, who the other actor was, and why they re-shot it. At this point it’s hard to picture someone other than Christopher Evan Welch in that scene.
I would die for access to the PTA vault. I want to see all the early Dano-less CMBB stuff, the deleted magnolia stuff, and really just raw footage and audio between takes of him directing, watching him work with the actors and seeing them try out different shit. And I’m sure there are plenty of deleted / reshot scenes that we don’t even know about.
Or the deleted scenes/subplot in Phantom Thread with Reynolds' children.
QuoteThe “pig fuck” line was so memorable that Anderson kept it in when the scene in question had to be reshot at a later date in a different location with a different actor opposite Hoffman.
I wonder what the scene was like the first time, who the other actor was, and why they re-shot it. At this point it’s hard to picture someone other than Christopher Evan Welch in that scene.
I would die for access to the PTA vault. I want to see all the early Dano-less CMBB stuff, the deleted magnolia stuff, and really just raw footage and audio between takes of him directing, watching him work with the actors and seeing them try out different shit. And I’m sure there are plenty of deleted / reshot scenes that we don’t even know about.
Or the deleted scenes/subplot in Phantom Thread with Reynolds' children.
Was it shot amd taken out by Tichenor or was it just in the script and unused. I remember somebody in the production mentioning it in an interview but I can't remember who.
Glad it was cut anyway, it would have made Reynolds irredeemably unlikeable in my mind, had it been in the final movie.
QuoteThe “pig fuck” line was so memorable that Anderson kept it in when the scene in question had to be reshot at a later date in a different location with a different actor opposite Hoffman.
I wonder what the scene was like the first time, who the other actor was, and why they re-shot it. At this point it’s hard to picture someone other than Christopher Evan Welch in that scene.
I would die for access to the PTA vault. I want to see all the early Dano-less CMBB stuff, the deleted magnolia stuff, and really just raw footage and audio between takes of him directing, watching him work with the actors and seeing them try out different shit. And I’m sure there are plenty of deleted / reshot scenes that we don’t even know about.
Or the deleted scenes/subplot in Phantom Thread with Reynolds' children.
Was it shot amd taken out by Tichenor or was it just in the script and unused. I remember somebody in the production mentioning it in an interview but I can't remember who.
Glad it was cut anyway, it would have made Reynolds irredeemably unlikeable in my mind, had it been in the final movie.
Interesting. I wonder if this scene came about when Paul was doing his signature “get two people talking” exercise to help find out who they are... Seems natural that these parts in his film ultimately get trimmedQuoteThe “pig fuck” line was so memorable that Anderson kept it in when the scene in question had to be reshot at a later date in a different location with a different actor opposite Hoffman.
I wonder what the scene was like the first time, who the other actor was, and why they re-shot it. At this point it’s hard to picture someone other than Christopher Evan Welch in that scene.
I would die for access to the PTA vault. I want to see all the early Dano-less CMBB stuff, the deleted magnolia stuff, and really just raw footage and audio between takes of him directing, watching him work with the actors and seeing them try out different shit. And I’m sure there are plenty of deleted / reshot scenes that we don’t even know about.
Or the deleted scenes/subplot in Phantom Thread with Reynolds' children.
Was it shot amd taken out by Tichenor or was it just in the script and unused. I remember somebody in the production mentioning it in an interview but I can't remember who.
Glad it was cut anyway, it would have made Reynolds irredeemably unlikeable in my mind, had it been in the final movie.
If I remember correctly (I can’t find the interview so I may be wrong), Tichenor said that the scene by the fire( the first staring contest if you will) was much much longer and they discuss Reynolds’ kids and all of his baby mamas(my guess this is what leads up to her asking why he’s not married). I’m not sure if there was ever any scenes with the children or not.
Interesting. I wonder if this scene came about when Paul was doing his signature “get two people talking” exercise to help find out who they are... Seems natural that these parts in his film ultimately get trimmedQuoteThe “pig fuck” line was so memorable that Anderson kept it in when the scene in question had to be reshot at a later date in a different location with a different actor opposite Hoffman.
I wonder what the scene was like the first time, who the other actor was, and why they re-shot it. At this point it’s hard to picture someone other than Christopher Evan Welch in that scene.
I would die for access to the PTA vault. I want to see all the early Dano-less CMBB stuff, the deleted magnolia stuff, and really just raw footage and audio between takes of him directing, watching him work with the actors and seeing them try out different shit. And I’m sure there are plenty of deleted / reshot scenes that we don’t even know about.
Or the deleted scenes/subplot in Phantom Thread with Reynolds' children.
Was it shot amd taken out by Tichenor or was it just in the script and unused. I remember somebody in the production mentioning it in an interview but I can't remember who.
Glad it was cut anyway, it would have made Reynolds irredeemably unlikeable in my mind, had it been in the final movie.
If I remember correctly (I can’t find the interview so I may be wrong), Tichenor said that the scene by the fire( the first staring contest if you will) was much much longer and they discuss Reynolds’ kids and all of his baby mamas(my guess this is what leads up to her asking why he’s not married). I’m not sure if there was ever any scenes with the children or not.