Recently a friend told me about someone she knows who had a sex change (f to m) and now I can't stop thinking about the idea of my body transforming into a male one. I've also got a bad case of wanting to know how it feels to have a penis. Actually, I really want to have a penis, and to be able to do all the things you can with one. I'm really jealous of that ex-woman.
If anyone feels they can treat this seriously, I'm really curious, though I don't know whether you can explain it, as to what the pros and cons are of having a male body. I don't know that I'm talking so much about the way it makes you feel in a social situation, but just how the body feels.
Anyway, also, has anyone got any films to suggest (or books, novels preferably): I haven't seen Boys Don't Cry, though that is about a transvestite not a transsexual isn't it?
to wong fu, thanks for everything. julie newmar.
duh.
Well, Being John Malckovich kind of deals with that with the Cameron Diaz character. god i love that movie.
As to your other question, I really don't think I could answer it in one post. I can say that the biggest con is getting hit in the nuts, which are super sensitive. There is no pain in this world that compares. I remember playing baseball as a kid, the one day you didn't wear a cup.... EEEK! The pain doesn't come right away- at first you are just stunned that some asshole just hit you right in the balls, then after a couple of minutes the pain comes, and it travels up into your stomach. oh man...
The Pros, well too many to name, but think I should take this conversation to a pm.
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Great Photographic Documentation.
Dean changed from Female to Male:
The author tells us the story of when he was a Girl. And how the little girl had day dreams and reveries of having a penis and being the owner of a male sexual organ, not in the body of a boyfriend to touch and see, but in her own body. At the same time she didn't feel any pride of her menstruation and her Breasts and Nipples, but saw with anguish and suffering her maturation into a Woman.
The Phallus Palace also has personal testaments from FTMs (Female to Males Transsexuals) and contributions from a host of others. The historical, medical, psychological and cultural context. Captivating photographs guide the reader from the FTMs female personae, through surgical operations, to portraits of the men whose self and public identities are finally revealed as one.
Dean Kotula has worked as a documentary photographer for twenty years. Dean changed his sex from female to male under the scrutinizing eyes of 2,000 predominantly male shipyard workers while working as a machinist. The ensuing ordeal prompted him to create this book with the hope that educating the public about transsexualism would reduce the animosity and fear surrounding the issue.
I also remember another book (I think) about a woman who actually dressed a man for a day to get the "feel" of it. If I remember correctly, she placed a dildo in his pants, learned a more masculine walk, etc. and wrote about it. I see if I can find it for you.
A few movies I can think of with females to males:
The Ballad Of Little Jo (based on a true story)
Homicidal (a different take on Psycho)
Just One Of The Guys (played for comedy though)
Shakespeare In Love
The Crying Game
Quote from: Phil Marloweto wong fu, thanks for everything. julie newmar.
duh.
Quote from: Duck SauceThe Crying Game
These are both about Transvestites... she said Transexuals... DUH
and Budgie, I know it's the other direction, but there's a new HBO movie called Normal. It's about a father who decides to get a sex change and his family's reaction. I watched it, it's not fantastic, but it was interesting for that sort. Kinda bland
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Cromwell provides an interesting ethnography of female men from a FTM perspective in a time when the transgender community is calling for scholarship about transpeople by transcholars. He gives an insider's perspective of a fairly homogenous type of group of transmen that capably provides a few new glimpses into female men's stories.
It's a much understudied population, no matter which discipline is framing the work. Also interesting to consider is how US anthropology is more well versed in gender studies of other cultures, so this ethnography provides stories from home that resist being ethnocentric. Perhaps the most refreshing aspect of the text is that it is not theoretically framed by the toxic God-like oppression of the psycho-medicalizing discourse that makes everyday transgender experiences fit into a disease model of gender identity disorder, body dysphoria, social deviancy, and personal deficiency.
Below is the book that Peter Jackson may adapt for his next film:
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Once you begin reading As Nature Made Him, a mesmerizing story of a medical tragedy and its traumatic results, you absolutely won't want to put it down. Following a botched circumcision, a family is convinced to raise their infant son, Bruce, as a girl. They rename the child Brenda and spend the next 14 years trying to transform him into a her. Brenda's childhood reads as one filled with anxiety and loneliness, and her fear and confusion are present on nearly every page concerning her early childhood. Much of her pain is caused by Dr. Money, who is presented as a villainous medical man attempting to coerce an unwilling child to submit to numerous unpleasant treatments.
Reading over interviews and reports of decisions made by this doctor, it's difficult to contain anger at the widespread results of his insistence that natural-born gender can be altered with little more than willpower and hormone treatments. The attempts of his parents, twin brother, and extended family to assist Brenda to be happily female are touching--the sense is overwhelmingly of a family wanting to do "right" while being terribly mislead as to what "right" is for her. As Brenda makes the decision to live life as a male (at age 14), she takes the name David and begins the process of reversing the effects of estrogen treatments. David's ultimately successful life--a solid marriage, honest and close family relationships, and his bravery in making his childhood public--bring an uplifting end to his story. Equally fascinating is the latest segment of the longtime nature/nurture controversy, and the interviews of various psychological researchers and practitioners form a larger framework around David's struggle to live as the gender he was meant to be.
Also, after reading about the above book, I remember an excellent film, "Mi Vie En Rose."
im actually inteersted in knowing what it feels like to be a girl.
"desperate living" has a scene with a woman getting a penis but its not very serious. although on the commentary track waters says that the penis in the movie looks very much like a "real" penis one would get with a sex change. and it looks incredibly ugly. i wonder if medicine has improved the appearance of the sex change penises.
i wouldnt give up my penis for anything. i can see where youre coming from budg, if i had a vagina i think id want a dick too. i could never just have a vagina, if anything, i would have both. i was actually thinking of this movie title i heard, though i doubt the film is real...Mighty Hermaphroditey.
Also Flawless...didnt PSH have a vagina? Or was he just a drag queen? Maybe it was sposed to be ambiguous.
Assumptions here, but everything here is assumptions. I really can't imagine having the other sex's sex parts to be really that exciting. There aren't any guys running screaming of how great it is to have a penis and such and if you asked any guy what they think about sharing space with a little one down there, they'd prolly be like: "Who cares? It's just there and that's it." I think outside the 3 minute excitement of having the other sex's sex parts, the hoopla will fade fucking fast. It's just something not very important where anyone really thinks about what it is like to have it and such. Sometimes it gets in the way. That's about it.
~rougerum
You don't see too many female to male transvestites in movies. The only films I can think of are male to female: Priscilla Queen of the Desert (Terrence Stamp's character), Todo Sobre Mi Madre, and Hedwig.
Quote from: BonBon85You don't see too many female to male transvestites in movies.
Boys Don't Cry
oops, I meant transexuals... I'm tired.
Quote from: LesterAlso Flawless...didnt PSH have a vagina? Or was he just a drag queen? Maybe it was sposed to be ambiguous.
He was a drag queen.
Quote from: Jeremy BlackmanBoys Don't Cry
Actually, budgie, you should also watch the documentary The Brandon Teena Story to get a better understanding. There are interviews with all those involved, including his/her killer and lover. Hope that wasn't a spoiler.
I never believed Hilary Swank as a guy. Annette Bening was robbed that year for the Oscar.(https://xixax.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.amazon.com%2Fimages%2FP%2FB000089725.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg&hash=ac5574ea7ae3b60c9d9bbcc902b449efb39599b5)
As Robert Eads puts it in one of the first scenes of this remarkable documentary, he lives in "Bubba-land"--which wouldn't be unusual if Robert weren't a female-to-male transsexual. Southern Comfort chronicles the last year of Robert's life, as he succumbed to, ironically, cervical cancer; over that year, documentarian Kate Davis developed an amazing intimacy with Robert and his adopted family of other transsexuals living in the depths of Georgia, including his vivacious male-to-female transsexual girlfriend Lola. The film's title comes from an annual gathering that Robert describes as "the cotillion of the trans community, the coming-out party"--an event part convention, part high school prom. Every scene testifies to both the enormous difficulties they face and the grace, humor, and sheer will with which they take it all on. It's not surprising Southern Comfort has won numerous awards, including the Grand Jury Prize at the Sundance Film Festival.
I also remembered Tilda Swinton in "Orlando" plays both genders.
mac knows way too much about this. :shock:
Such a lot here, I'm overwhelmed. Thanks everyone. All those books look great, Mac, especially the first. I've just now picked up a huge volume from my library but only have it for the weekend. That personal story and photographic documentation sounds terrific though. I'm keen to read As Nature Made Him too.
I just remembered Orlando this morning. I didn't much like it (too arch) at the time but haven't ever seen it since so maybe it's time to give it another shot, with a new perspective. Ma Vie En Rose is just wonderful. I caught it on tv late one night and adored it.
As for discussion on this:
Gold Trumpet, I think whether your body (and I am talking the whole thing, not just the genitals, although obviously they are a focus for curiosity) is an issue for you depends on your own individual make-up and sense of identity. It isn't really about exciting or not, but about feeling right. I'm sure there are a lot of men for whom their bodies are something to think about, as mine is for me. I appreciate your perspective, though.
Cecil, I know. You always hear that the big problem for ftm is the prosthetic nature of the genitalia. I guess for mtf it's not being able to conceive. I'm wondering whether things are progressing here, though it's still such a taboo really that I doubt there's much work being done to help the situation.
cbrad, I love your description of pain! I was wondering about that specifically actually. Thanks. When I was a little girl I remember being out with my brother and straddling a fence and, cause I'd heard him and his mates say it, shouting 'Ooh, my balls!', at which he told me off. :oops:
RK, I thought about tv movies, cause that always seems to be where these issues get 'dealt' with. But yeah they are so soapy usually. Don't know how I'd get to see Normal, though.
Quote from: LesterAlso Flawless...didnt PSH have a vagina? Or was he just a drag queen? Maybe it was sposed to be ambiguous.
´
He was going to use the stolen money to get a sex-change! So by definition that would make him a transsexual :-D
Quote from: Pmac knows way too much about this. :shock:
I can't help it if I'm in touch with my feminine side.
Quote from: Sigur RósQuote from: LesterAlso Flawless...didnt PSH have a vagina? Or was he just a drag queen? Maybe it was sposed to be ambiguous.
´
He was going to use the stolen money to get a sex-change! So by definition that would make him a transsexual :-D
Then John Cazale in "Dog Day Afternoon" was one too.
Quote from: budgieAs for discussion on this:
budgie, I'm more curious why you're not interested about being a woman anymore rather than the want to be a man? Is there a certain level of vanity a woman has to be at all the time that you are tired of? I guess there is less focus on men's looks (including body), thinking about Fight Club when the guys get onto the bus and see the washboard abs ad and Jack says, "Is that what a man looks like?" and they laugh. Meaning it's more attitude that makes one a man. But terms like "Clothes do not make that man," "Be a man," "Grow some balls" or "Man of the house" suggests, or rather, expects, that you have to be tough and take charge all the time regardless of body size.
And, as always, you are most welcome.
Quote from: MacGuffinThen John Cazale in "Dog Day Afternoon" was one too.
Wasn't he??? :-D
Quote from: MacGuffinQuote from: Pmac knows way too much about this. :shock:
I can't help it if I'm in touch with my feminine side.
Quote from: budgieAs for discussion on this:
budgie, I'm more curious why you're not interested about being a woman anymore rather than the want to be a man? Is there a certain level of vanity a woman has to be at all the time that you are tired of? I guess there is less focus on men's looks (including body), thinking about Fight Club when the guys get onto the bus and see the washboard abs ad and Jack says, "Is that what a man looks like?" and they laugh. Meaning it's more attitude that makes one a man. But terms like "Clothes do not make that man," "Be a man," "Grow some balls" or "Man of the house" suggests, or rather, expects, that you have to be tough and take charge all the time regardless of body size.
I'm not 'not interested in being a woman anymore', if you are talking (which you seem to be) about gender rather than sex (as I was originally). I am interested in how having a male body and going through the hormone treatment etc would perhaps change my perception of things and make me feel different to the way I do now, but really it's more to do with feeling more yourself, like putting on the right set of clothes. Your question assumes I feel like a 'woman' as opposed to a 'man', but do you honestly think it's that simple?
I like dressing up sometimes (don't we all?) and being/looking feminine, if that's what you're talking about when you mention 'a certain level of vanity' (I'm sorry, but I'm not really sure what you mean), but it's not the whole deal.
Fight Club is apparently questioning the way men are being pressured to conform to certain ideals to the extent that women have always been, but really that ideal of a man as not caring about his looks is just as much of a pressure isn't it? The joke's on Tyler really, which is the point, I think, reinforced by Brad's obvious narcissism. So then it comes down to which role (literally) are you most comfortable playing, the man or the woman. But none of us are ever really one or the other, we just try to fit in. I identify with men and women, I don't feel that I make a very convincing woman, and if I imagine being a man sex-wise I feel more comfortable. It doesn't mean I would make a convincing man in some circles, but maybe I could do/experience some things more easily that are difficult for me at present.
i don't blame ya. a lifetime of shrivelled up british men would be pretty underwhelming.
Quote from: Pi don't blame ya. a lifetime of shrivelled up british men would be pretty underwhelming.
Suck my dick you ignorant fucker.
Quote from: Pa lifetime of shrivelled up british men would be pretty underwhelming.
British men? wtf?
This resurrection reminds me...
Serious, serious question, purely out of curiosity and not looking to bash anyone: reading the book I got out on this topic, I was intrigued by one of the case studies' comment about the way his perceptions and feelings changed as she followed hormone treatment. Everybody talked about increased libido and aggression, but he also added that whereas before the therapy she would be made angry by men objectifying women, as a man he found it fun and couldn't understand why the women didn't enjoy it too.
I find that really interesting, because it says that this kind of pleasure is at least partly biological. I can well understand the pleasure in fantasising about women as I enjoy pornographic images of women, but I'm curious about the this idea that the women should enjoy being seen as a fantasy object. I'm ambivalent about it - I can see harmlessness and harm, and it does sometimes make me angry. Am I wrong to get upset? The way you see it, as biological men, does it confuse you that women don't enjoy being sex objects?
I just really want to know. Maybe it's just the type of person this guy was anyhow, but it's weird to think that your hormones could change your outlook and understanding of others like that.
Quote from: budgieI'm curious about the this idea that the women should enjoy being seen as a fantasy object. I'm ambivalent about it - I can see harmlessness and harm, and it does sometimes make me angry. Am I wrong to get upset? The way you see it, as biological men, does it confuse you that women don't enjoy being sex objects?
You are not wrong to get upset, and as an intelligent woman, you should be. But men mainly set on the superficiality of good looks seem to believe that just because I find you attractive, you should take that as a compliment because I would want to fuck you.
And I've seen women who fall for it and roll over with their legs open. Can you explain that to me? How is it that some women can't see the obvious 'come-on' and go along with it? Insercuities about themselves? Toying with the man; building him up only to cut him off? Horniness? Or plain stupidity?
Quote from: Sigur RósQuote from: MacGuffinThen John Cazale in "Dog Day Afternoon" was one too.
Wasn't he??? :-D
John Cazale wasn't the one getting the sex change, it was Pacino's male wife Leon (the voice of skeleton jack).
I might have missed it, but did anyone mention Hedwig and the Angry Inch? That movie cracks me the fuck up. Definitely in my top five.
Quote from: MacGuffin
And I've seen women who fall for it and roll over with their legs open. Can you explain that to me? How is it that some women can't see the obvious 'come-on' and go along with it? Insercuities about themselves? Toying with the man; building him up only to cut him off? Horniness? Or plain stupidity?
Obviously it's for all those reasons, and no single reason.
What you're assuming is that 'falling for it' is necessarily 'stupid', though. From the way you describe the possible options, you seem to see the whole thing as some kind of fight or game that someone has to win, as though it's always a case of 'toying' or trying to trick the other person. Try considering a situation where the woman who seems to not see the obvious actually does, and also sees the man playing his game and enjoys watching him thinking he's getting away with something, and yes, also gets off playing her own kind of game. You wouldn't know it, but there's also intense joy in risk-taking and pushing your own limits, not just others'.
But, MacGuffin, stop being such a coward. What do you really want me to confess? Why I fell for you? Why I kept falling for you? Why I don't want anything to do with you now? You're such a pervert. I love it.
Quote from: budgieBut, MacGuffin, stop being such a coward. What do you really want me to confess? Why I fell for you? Why I kept falling for you? Why I don't want anything to do with you now? You're such a pervert. I love it.
And the string of misunderstandings between us continues.
You know, not everything I post
for you, a self-proclaimed narcissist, is
about you. Although this one entirely is.
But what is a coward if not one who knows the questions (even though there aren't any being asked), but avoids giving the answers and the person asking them?