our culture is rapidly changing. we're getting more and more music video/commercial directors making transition into film (spike jonze, michel gondry, fincher, a possible cunningham). how is this going to affect the industry? also, about 5 to 10 years from now, we're gonna have directors, like myself, influenced by video games with incredibly short attention spans. wtf are these people, like myself again, going to do with the industry?
oh, and hi,, i'm new to teh forum. you guys look like an interesting group.
-cheers-
Quote from: SmellyBoobFungusour culture is rapidly changing. we're getting more and more music video/commercial directors making transition into film (spike jonze, michel gondry, fincher, a possible cunningham). how is this going to affect the industry? also, about 5 to 10 years from now, we're gonna have directors, like myself, influenced by video games with incredibly short attention spans. wtf are these people, like myself again, going to do with the industry?
judging from the pioneers of today, at worst there'll be an increase of McGs. which is not necessarily a bad thing.
the most excellent thing about this new "mtv" generation of directors is that they
didn't do these predictably video-ish things u said. in fact the few who did retain their video sensibilities to the point of nausea (Jonas Akerlund, Hype Williams) totally flopped, they should hav known better. the ones who restrained themselves, treating film as a new medium to revolutionize, were successful, and hav made the most interesting and innovative films of the last 6 years (Spike Jonze, Mark Romanek, Michel Gondry, Jonathan Glazer).
these ppl know better than to give in to that disproven cliche which u suggested. sure if there are directors now who hav no idea that these good ones came before them, they might try to do the quick cut thing without the novelty of say Baz Luhrmann (not included cos he's not a video director) and will fail miserably.
so if they truly understand their vision, are not overly pretentious, and bother learning a little about the history.. i see only good things coming out of video directors in the future.
I'm mostly negative about this revolution of sorts. I'll hold Fincher and Proyas as two good filmmakers to come from music videos, but its a minimal number overall. The main issue though with the music video generation that bothers me is that it is having the same impact as the Tarantino explosian that spawned so many copy cats of Pulp Fiction: 80% of the films will be shit because the content, structure, and ideas can easily be exploited. It's be terribly hard to exploit the ideals of Ingmar Bergman, Federico Fellini and Michelangelo Antonioni because their basis of art is so much finer, but yet, their films continue to hold back row importance in revolutionizing cinema.
so GT, how do you hold the music video generation in following the same trend of tarantino-esque films? the thing w/ taranintino-esque films that they exploit his style and structure. if you pay close attention to a few of these music video directors, they're very passionate about carrying their feelings, personality, and ideas over to the story. i really think a few of these guys are going to revelotunize film because of their vigorous approach to experimenting with the medium. besides, the directors don't exploiate content, structure, or ideas that's what writers do. as long as these music video directors (jonze, gondry, fincher) make the right choices for story they won't cheat the medium or themselves.
On the subject of MV directors, I think it really depends on what they've directed. Jonze, Gondry and Co. have a distinct style unto themselves that make their videos stand out and exciting to watch.
However, that fucker who directed Torque previously directed several Britney Spears videos as well Sisqo's "Thong Song," among others. I think it'd be easy to tell which MV-turned-film-director would be most successful in this business.
Quote from: SmellyBoobFungusso GT, how do you hold the music video generation in following the same trend of tarantino-esque films? the thing w/ taranintino-esque films that they exploit his style and structure. if you pay close attention to a few of these music video directors, they're very passionate about carrying their feelings, personality, and ideas over to the story. i really think a few of these guys are going to revelotunize film because of their vigorous approach to experimenting with the medium. besides, the directors don't exploiate content, structure, or ideas that's what writers do. as long as these music video directors (jonze, gondry, fincher) make the right choices for story they won't cheat the medium or themselves.
Filmmakers can most definitely exploit. They can use an over abundance of style when it isn't needed. An example of this (though not a video director originally, but influenced by still) is Rob Marshall and all his unnecessary camera angles and edits in
Chicago. Stylistically, it made no sense to have because it took away from the performances which should have been the backbone of the film, but of course, none of the main actors could really dance either so Marshall may have been trying to hide that fact. Filmmakers post-Tarantino have exploited on style when not necessary and so have music video directors (actually, by their nature, they do it most.) This is also a hard topic to really argue on because you see greatness from someone like Spike Jonze. I have yet to like a film done by Spike Jonze so there's a whole 'nother argument right there.
Anyways, if you haven't heard it yet, welcome to the board! Hope you stick around and good first topic.
I think that the idea of advertising/music-vid training ground is just as ambivalent as what's been indicated by the very intelligent posts above. There's nothing inherently wrong with cutting your teeth and learning the ropes in these media, as long as you understand there's much more to successful feature filmmaking than pretty-shiny lighting and maximum-instantaneous-impact editing. I mean, a music video director can make a film that doesn't look like a typical music video (Spike Jonze has done it, Michel Gondry has done it). They can also make films that do look like typical music videos (David Fincher, sorry GT- it's that one relentless and ever more predictable lighting scheme he has). And a director who's not known for music videos can make a film that looks like one (Baz Luhrmann).
As for video games... I don't care about them at all and would find it a shame if film went in that direction, or any direction designed to cater to shorter attention spans (this has, of course, already happened in a radically disturbing way, but like anything bad, it can still get worse). Visually, too, it has gone that way somewhat with the more cheap (I mean crass, not inexpensive) examples of CGI and the Star Wars prequels, which to me are about the ugliest movies ever made.
right on, i welcome your welcome. i agree with you full-heartdly about chicago. my reason for liking jonze is simple. he brings truth and honesty to kauffman's stories. i guess i have faith in some of these MV directors because i believe in what kubrick says that film should be like music. film should carry moods and emotions, and part of the responsibilty of an MV director is to capture the singers/artists voice/mood/emotion.
one reason i think jonze is so great is because he uses amatuer equipment, but still manages to captivate an audience. he treats subjects and content with a very natural/documentary style feel, which is an example of total commitment to the story and subject. for example, take the music video 'praise you'. yes, it's only a music video, but it becomes so much more complex because the way jonze treats the subject, in this case it's himself or Richard Couffey. he has a friend film him with a low budget dv cam, which brings an undeniable reality to richard couffey, and creates a feeling of magical realism. this is why i believe spike jonze is so great because of how he plays with our perceptions on reality and art. jonze is a representation of the hand-held dv, and that style or how the dv is used does not matter, it's all about the subject. another example of this is his contribution towards jackass.
Music video directors must die. I find it funny that their style is so shit terrible, and yet of all the copies of copies of copies, the only people that can do it right are the foreigners (City Of God guy, and 21 Grams guy -- I hate spelling their names).
Fuck over-shakey hand-held, fuck 55 cuts per second.
8) My two pennies.
Welcome to board, btw, mr fungus.
Quote from: SoNowThenMusic video directors must die. I find it funny that their style is so shit terrible, and yet of all the copies of copies of copies, the only people that can do it right are the foreigners (City Of God guy, and 21 Grams guy -- I hate spelling their names).
wow, did u even read anything that was posted?
wow. when ur gonna say sumthin stupid like that u should at least pre-empt it with "I didn't read anything that's been written, so what i'm about to say could totally have been disproven and destroyed before i even write it".
Quote from: PQuote from: SoNowThenMusic video directors must die. I find it funny that their style is so shit terrible, and yet of all the copies of copies of copies, the only people that can do it right are the foreigners (City Of God guy, and 21 Grams guy -- I hate spelling their names).
wow, did u even read anything that was posted?
wow. when ur gonna say sumthin stupid like that u should at least pre-empt it with "I didn't read anything that's been written, so what i'm about to say could totally have been disproven and destroyed before i even write it".
word
What's next? There are many talented directors making music videos, and some have made good films. The guy who did One Hour Photo was a music video director, and One Hour Photo certainly doesn't have the cliched stylistic trademarks of music videos -- no fast cuts, etc. I think it's a generational thing, that older people dismiss music videos, because they never see any.
Back in the 70's, veteran directors like Howard Hawks, John Ford and Billy Wilder basically took a shit on new filmmakers, saying "these young guys ain't so great, etc." This is how baby boomers feel about music videos.
Great filmmakers can come from anywhere, but I think in the future foreign directors and female directors will be in the vanguard, and will define the 00's and 10's the way Tarantino defined the 90's. White heterosexual American suburban teenage boys have ruled mass culture for too long. It is time for a different sensibility.
yeah its the same argument over and over, and it always turns out to be moot. whether it's film critics turning into filmmakers, video store clerks turning into autuers, or music video directors making the leap into film, there are always the nay-sayers who proclaim that the sky is falling and film is doomed. it's not doomed, anything unique or new to film will inevitably be a good thing in the long run. the techniques that work will stay and the stuff that doesn't will fade.
Quote from: PQuote from: SoNowThenMusic video directors must die. I find it funny that their style is so shit terrible, and yet of all the copies of copies of copies, the only people that can do it right are the foreigners (City Of God guy, and 21 Grams guy -- I hate spelling their names).
wow, did u even read anything that was posted?
wow. when ur gonna say sumthin stupid like that u should at least pre-empt it with "I didn't read anything that's been written, so what i'm about to say could totally have been disproven and destroyed before i even write it".
??
My comments still stand. To clarify, I hate Jonze for different reasons, and I consider Fincher to be from a bit of a previous generation, so let's leave him out. The mv director who did Sexy Beast, imo, sucks. One Hour Photo was nothing special, Baz sucks, I'll never even waste my time watching Chicago.
So I'm waiting for a backlash of, I dunno, a different set of folks to start making films. The anti tv, anti video game, anti music video wave.
Let me know if I'm still missing the point...
Quote from: SoNowThenSo I'm waiting for a backlash of, I dunno, a different set of folks to start making films. The anti tv, anti video game, anti music video wave.
Let me know if I'm still missing the point...
hah it looks like u are waiting for the Amish to make movies.
dude, hav u even seen any jonathan glazer videos? Rabbit in Your Headlights is a masterpiece to rival Windowlicker. have u ever seen videos outside of what is shown on MTV? u denounce video directors for one set of reasons and hate the ones who hav made it for another set. make up ur mind.
maybe ur just saying that the majority of music videos are shit and unimaginative "commercials". that is obvious and true. the same can be said of movies. the point was made and confirmed that new artists emerging from the field of music videos hav the potential to revolutionize film making. if that notion frightens u than it is ur own fault. cos the stuff we've seen so far from the best vid directors only promises better things to come.
i feel sorry for anyone in advance, who won't acknowledge cunningham as the savior he will be. and aforementioned mv directors (gondry, jonze, glazer) as the most exciting thing since opposable thumbs.
It's certainly fair for you to think they're gonna revolutionize, and it's true, I don't see many vids outside the mainstream (though I have seen some of Jonze's), but nah, the directors I'm putting my money on are still PTA, Wes, QT. I can't really think of anybody younger who has struck me as amazing.
Am I forgetting somebody (besides the folks we already mentioned)?
EDIT - oh, after re-reading it three times, now I see what you meant. You're saying the only good mv directors that cross over are gonna be the ones who pretty much reject the mv style, yes?
there's already a title for the Wes-type of directors. I think it's called "The New Sincerity".
blah , if you ask me.
from this day on, i won't use the words "New" and "Wave" . i'm having flashbacks to when i used to like Korn, but then everybody started to like them. You know where i'm going with this.
Quote from: The Gold TrumpetQuote from: SmellyBoobFungusso GT, how do you hold the music video generation in following the same trend of tarantino-esque films? the thing w/ taranintino-esque films that they exploit his style and structure. if you pay close attention to a few of these music video directors, they're very passionate about carrying their feelings, personality, and ideas over to the story. i really think a few of these guys are going to revelotunize film because of their vigorous approach to experimenting with the medium. besides, the directors don't exploiate content, structure, or ideas that's what writers do. as long as these music video directors (jonze, gondry, fincher) make the right choices for story they won't cheat the medium or themselves.
Filmmakers can most definitely exploit. They can use an over abundance of style when it isn't needed. An example of this (though not a video director originally, but influenced by still) is Rob Marshall and all his unnecessary camera angles and edits in Chicago. Stylistically, it made no sense to have because it took away from the performances which should have been the backbone of the film, but of course, none of the main actors could really dance either so Marshall may have been trying to hide that fact. Filmmakers post-Tarantino have exploited on style when not necessary and so have music video directors (actually, by their nature, they do it most.) This is also a hard topic to really argue on because you see greatness from someone like Spike Jonze. I have yet to like a film done by Spike Jonze so there's a whole 'nother argument right there.
Anyways, if you haven't heard it yet, welcome to the board! Hope you stick around and good first topic.
You nailed exactly why I didn't like Chicago. I enjoyed the Broadway show but really disliked the movie and, until now, I blamed it on excessive hype and my dislike for Renee Zellweger. But you got it exactly right.
And concerning Spike Jonze, you'll notice that most of his videos have a very specific story, or bare minimum, a specific theme. He is a natural storyteller which made him such a popular video director in the first place.
But yeah, most video directors do champion style over substance; as you pointed out, it's the nature of the work. You'll notice that a lot of videos are rehashes of familiar scenes from movies (like P. Diddy's preoccupation with John Woo's doves, or Eminem riffing - oddly - on The Hudsucker Proxy). And, sadly, that's why we have more movies like Torque or Bulletproof Monk, that themselves are rehashes of movies we've already seen rather than films like Adaptation or Fight Club.
But the joke's on us because just enough people go to see these crap movies to make it profitable.
Quote from: SoNowThenEDIT - oh, after re-reading it three times, now I see what you meant. You're saying the only good mv directors that cross over are gonna be the ones who pretty much reject the mv style, yes?
sort of. instead of 'reject' i would say "evolve their own" style to suit the new medium.
i strongly urge u to watch at least the director label dvds to further ur knowledge of what music videos can be, that is often just as powerful as movies. one could easily compare Come to Daddy with the essence of The Shining.
If music videos are unworthy of artistic respect, why would PTA and Jonathan Demme and Scorsese direct music videos? It is not the medium, it's what you do with it that counts.
Quote from: soixanteIf music videos are unworthy of artistic respect, why would PTA and Jonathan Demme and Scorsese direct music videos? It is not the medium, it's what you do with it that counts.
Its weird for me. I dislike most of the films from music video directors but I like many of their music videos. I think the problem is that there is so much gloss to these films because of their nature of style that they usually don't prove to be good enough to last 2 hours. So far, with a few exceptions, the experimentation of music videos seems to be short film material only. But, really, whats bad about not having to spend 2 hours to watch every film? I think the business is screaming for theatres to open up to short films, discount the prices and leave one theatre open out of a multi plex to replay 5 short films over and over all day long. It just hasn't happened yet, but its a nice hope.
To get back to some general issues: Romanek and Glazer felt to me that they were normalizing their approach to film and losing a lot of the identity of the music video style, but I didn't like Sexy Beast or One Hour Photo all that much. Spike Jonze feels like he is trying to transmit his style to film and actually go for it, but I think the writing has failed him everytime and he hasn't tried to really impress in his filmmaking the way a City of God did for material that is already stock for Hollywood.