"We'll Meet Again" - Dr. Strangelove
"Happy Days Are Here Again" - Medium Cool :(
"What a Wonderful World" - Bowling for Columbine
beethoven's ninth "ode to joy"- clockwork (in the holocaust film) ripped-off by michael moore
Quote from: Vile5"What a Wonderful World" - Bowling for Columbine
actually, moore ripped that off too from good morning vietnam
I still love bowling for columbine, though
obvious ones:
Singin' In The Rain - Clockwork Orange
Stuck In The Middle With You - Reservoir Dogs
Mama told me not to come - Boogie Nights
perfect day - trainspotting
(think macguffin mentioned this in another musical thread)
Singing in the rain - A Clockwork Orange
Damn that's ironic....
Mickey Mouse Club theme in Full Metal Jacket
I think we've spotted a Kubrickism.
I guess the classical music in 2001 one could be seen as ironic in some sense too. :( So yeah...Kubrick!.... :(
Quote from: ShanghaiOrangeI guess the classical music in 2001 one could be seen as ironic in some sense too. :( So yeah...Kubrick!.... :(
In what sense?
"Love Letters" - Blue Velvet
By juxtaposing formal 18th and 19th Century representations of life and nature with a lifeless mechanical future. Classicism vs. Modernism.
All ironic musical selections go to Kubrick. He set the stage and did it best.
Almost everything in Dancer in the Dark.
"Walking on Sunshine" in American Psycho.
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman
"Walking on Sunshine" in American Psycho.
damn u jeremiah, u took mine!
singin' in the rain
is the best one for my $$.
Quote from: rustinglassQuote from: ShanghaiOrangeI guess the classical music in 2001 one could be seen as ironic in some sense too. :( So yeah...Kubrick!.... :(
In what sense?
I knew someone was going to ask that.
Great thread idea
I would have to say that song Frank wants his friend to lip synch to, Sandman something. I'm not good at this.
although it was in a terrible terrible movie, and im not gay, i swear to god but, "without you" in rules of attraction
A Quick One, While He's Away in Rushmore (that's about the 3219284732876th time I use this song in this movie to answer a post... :P )[/quote]
Oh yeah and:
"Danny Boy" in Miller's Crossing, mofos
"Atlantis","Layla", et al in Goodfellas
Here's an ironic use of music in Goodfellas that i've been thinking of:
The movie starts out with all these classic italian songs playing (Rags To Riches, Roses Are Red) but then as the movie and the timeframe progresses the songs are now rock (Gimmie Shelter, Sunshine of Your Love, Jump Into the Fire). The irony is that at the very end, the song playing is a rock version of an old italian classic. My Way, originally sung by Sinatra but now sung by the Sex Pistols. There's no way this was a coincidence.
No, that's a perfect example.
And apparently in the end of some Sex Pistols movie, Sid finishes this song and mock "fires" a gun into the crowd, just as Tommy is "firing" at us, the audience.
...and this is also supposed to reference the last shot of The Great Train Robbery -- the first "crime" film ever made (or something like that).
I read that in Scorsese Connection. Cool huh?
Not some Sex Pistol movie. It's in The Great Rock n' Roll Swindle -- but essentially it was Sid's music video for the song. You can also see it reinacted in Sid and Nancy. I don't know if that ending works though in Goodfellas, and it's proably his best film. If that is the connection that's being made, it's totally abstracted from the narrative of the film. There's no evidence of The Great Train Robbery (nobody's ever watching it, no references made), so at best it's Scorsese's own private in-joke. It always stood out, not quite fitting, and it's because it serves no dramatic purpose.
(https://xixax.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.filmsite.org%2Ffilmfotos%2Fgreattrainrob.jpg&hash=542f95b14b95fb259252df16dfdf8ae4c563e0bb)
Scene: 14: A life-size closeup picture of the leader of the outlaw band:
The film closes with a medium shot close-up of the bandit chief (with green-tinted shirt and red-tinted kerchief) (George Barnes) with his hat pushed back on his head. He points and shoots his revolver point-blank, directly into the camera (and, of course, at the audience). This caused a tremendously terrifying sensation at the time. This final punch to the film was totally irrelevant to the plot. Theater managers were free to either begin or end the picture with this scene - selecting it as either a prologue or epilogue.
(https://xixax.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.netreach.net%2F%7Ebundyman%2Ftommy.jpg&hash=7bc68b0dc9a00b870f897bca252ab6e63a2cc5b8)
Quote from: Pas RapportGreat thread idea
I would have to say that song Frank wants his friend to lip synch to, Sandman something. I'm not good at this.
Roy Orbison - In Dreams
..everythings in the right place.....
..radiohead..
..vanilla sky
in heaven... everything is fine
in heaven... everything is fine
in heaven... everything is fine:
you've got your good thing...
and I've got mine.
Quote from: MacGuffin(https://xixax.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.filmsite.org%2Ffilmfotos%2Fgreattrainrob.jpg&hash=542f95b14b95fb259252df16dfdf8ae4c563e0bb)
Scene: 14: A life-size closeup picture of the leader of the outlaw band:
The film closes with a medium shot close-up of the bandit chief (with green-tinted shirt and red-tinted kerchief) (George Barnes) with his hat pushed back on his head. He points and shoots his revolver point-blank, directly into the camera (and, of course, at the audience). This caused a tremendously terrifying sensation at the time. This final punch to the film was totally irrelevant to the plot. Theater managers were free to either begin or end the picture with this scene - selecting it as either a prologue or epilogue.
(https://xixax.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.netreach.net%2F%7Ebundyman%2Ftommy.jpg&hash=7bc68b0dc9a00b870f897bca252ab6e63a2cc5b8)
also was used in Tombstone, right?
There's still no justification for it. Doesn't matter what the reference was. I remember when I saw Goodfellas opening night, people were wondering what the point of the shot was. It didn't have any dramatic effect. It seemed out of place.
Quote from: mutinycoThere's still no justification for it. Doesn't matter what the reference was. I remember when I saw Goodfellas opening night, people were wondering what the point of the shot was. It didn't have any dramatic effect. It seemed out of place.
opening night? that would make you like 100 right?
No, that would make you a pissant.
Quote from: mutinycoThere's still no justification for it. Doesn't matter what the reference was. I remember when I saw Goodfellas opening night, people were wondering what the point of the shot was. It didn't have any dramatic effect. It seemed out of place.
it was perfect. in my opinion, at least.
Muty, I know you hate Marty and all, but still, I mean, there's no reason to pick a fight over this last shot. I kinda explained it, why it was referenced, like was already said, the use of the music was perfect because of the transition from crooners to rock in the soundtrack, so it only made sense to then go to punk with the singer singing a song from the crooner era. So in the musical sense it was a nice circular way to end the story. Now we also see that Sid sings the same song in Swindle, and in that film he fires on the audience. So on one hand, since the song works so well, it seems almost nice to reference the other movie. But Marty goes us one more, and does the same thing with the visuals as he did with the music, and gives us the same exact shot as Train Robbery (which as I said was the first "crime" film, as Goodfellas is also a crime film). Just another wonderful cinematic history reference like so much else of the film. But if need be, it can be also explained on a literal level: Henry tells us of how he longs for the old days when he had power,etc, and it was like the final flashback to the old days, again, ironic, because this was a part of the old days that was not so good, and ended him up in the shit he's in now. Which brings us back to My Way: Frank Sinatra was the boss, did things his own way, Sid comes along and is the super-rebel, does things his own way, both hold their head up high. But Henry, well he certainly goes his own way -- he rats out his friends and fucks everything up. If he has "his way" he wouldn't be living where he is right now. Hence, the perfect use of My Way, and the perfect punctuation to end the film, with perhaps a hint to Henry's remorse and guilt, and fear that he might be killed for what he did, and that last shot of Tommy is "haunting" him (and us, the audience, basically implicating us for watching, and enjoying the rise but now hating the fall). A shot right into camera and cutting to black, perfect for the emotions and the beat, and tied forever with this music that has been linked/referenced three ways.
That is the best essay written ever about anything. :(
It also compliments how he talks right at the camera in the courtroom at the end, I guess. :(
I wasn't insulting the use of My Way. Just the shot. It's still out of place in the film's dramatic scheme. And there's another more logical reason why the music changes as the film progresses: the times are changing. From crooners to Phil Spector to the Stones to Sid Vicious -- it's observational and justified. That shot wasn't. If Marty had put in a scene where they're watching old westerns or something it might've had legs. As is it's out of place.
And what also throws it is that it's an image of Tommy. It's Henry's story. Suddenly there's this shot of Tommy firing away. It's a jarring thing to have at your conclusion.
"If I Had a Hammer"
the 'everything's going shitty' montage in Confessions of a Dangerous Mind
Quote from: mutinycoAnd what also throws it is that it's an image of Tommy. It's Henry's story. Suddenly there's this shot of Tommy firing away. It's a jarring thing to have at your conclusion.
i kinda took it, when i was younger, when i first saw it, as scorsese kinda of very confidently saying, "here's me taking the gangster film to a whole new level". I mean, look at the shot. pesci wearing this oversized pin-striped suit, the fedora, standing in an alley, holding a huge revolver and, like great train robbery (the "first crime film") firing away at the audience. he's dressed like the gangsters we know from hollywood gangster films, standing in a setting like we're used to seeing from hollywood gangster flicks, and firing at the audience like the first hollywood crime film. i took it as him saying, that's what you've seen before, but look what I just showed you. anyway, that's just my bullshit theory, feel free to prove it wrong if you would like.
Quote from: ewardQuote from: mutinycoAnd what also throws it is that it's an image of Tommy. It's Henry's story. Suddenly there's this shot of Tommy firing away. It's a jarring thing to have at your conclusion.
i kinda took it, when i was younger, when i first saw it, as scorsese kinda of very confidently saying, "here's me taking the gangster film to a whole new level". I mean, look at the shot. pesci wearing this oversized pin-striped suit, the fedora, standing in an alley, holding a huge revolver and, like great train robbery (the "first crime film") firing away at the audience. he's dressed like the gangsters we know from hollywood gangster films, standing in a setting like we're used to seeing from hollywood gangster flicks, and firing at the audience like the first hollywood crime film. i took it as him saying, that's what you've seen before, but look what I just showed you. anyway, that's just my bullshit theory, feel free to prove it wrong if you would like.
Yeah, but just because it's something at a new level doesn't mean that it works.
Exactly. It's out of style and out of context with the rest of the picture. Most people see it and go: "What does that mean? That they're coming after him?"
Just because Marty has a vast knowledge of film and saw a connection doesn't mean it worked. It was actually a clever idea. It just wasn't handled correctly. There was no set-up for it within the context of what we'd seen prior to that.
Secondly, his reference to how we see movie gangsters in that shot was outdated. It's more modeled after Jimmy Gagney era gangsters. I'd argue that by 1990, most people's idea of a movie gangster was inherently influenced by The Godfather -- which offered us Part III the very same year. The average movie goer had probably never seen a Jimmy Cagney film before.
all valid points. eh, i don't know. it worked for me. guess it just depends on who you are.
It would've made more sense if he had just used actual clips from gangster movies in that spot. The point would've been clear and perhaps more creatively successful -- showing just how absurd they were, but now establishing those movies AS movies within this context.
I think this thread has started some interesting debate and I'm glad that I started it. :(
Alright, the biggest tragedy in the movie was Tommy's death. It's the end of the second act, it's the end of the Goodfellas story (while the third act is the end of Henry's story). The death of Tommy in the movie is the thing a lot of people remember most about the film. Because Tommy WAS the gangster. He was in every sense of the word, a gangster. And Tommy's death was like the end of an era for the goodfellas.
The shot at the end of the film is perfect. Henry's in this nice, green, suburban neighborhood and he goes out to get the paper. He looks up as if he sees a recognizable face. To me, this is him saying "hey Tommy, if only you could see me now". And the shot of Tommy shooting at the camera is his way of saying "Yeah if I saw you now I would fucking shoot you." And look at Henry's remorseful face after the shot, he KNOWS Tommy would fucking brutalize him if he saw where he was at that moment.
It's a shot that says Henry isn't a gangster anymore. He fucked it all up. He became the exact opposite of what he wanted to be in the first place. And Tommy would be pissed off to high heaven if he ever knew about it.
Now I guess it means different things to different people, but a shot like that isn't supposed to be taken literally, mutiny. It's like a fantasy kind of shot. Although I don't totally believe it was put there just to show Marty's vast knowledge of film history. And just because it doesn't make sense to you, doesn't mean it doesn't make sense period. Because when I first saw the shot (when I was about twelve or thirteen), I didn't even know about the Great Train Robbery, and I still got the point of the shot. I don't know exactly who you were watching the film with on that opening night, but if they didn't understand the shot, then no offense but did they even understand the rest of the movie?
P.S. Tommy talks about the rather obscure western The Oklahoma Kid in the film, during the foot shooting scene. It's not The Great Train Robbery, but it does show Tommy and the guys had some kind of interest in westerns.
Kick ass. That was beautiful!
Yeah I saw it when I was younger too, and in no way could I have got the reference without reading about it, but that shot has always been one of my favorites, and I used to sooooo look forward to it at the end of the movie. It just caps the film.
no, i also agree with everything you guys have just said, i dont think it was put there to show marty's vast knowledge of film history. but i, however, recognized the reference, cuz i recognized the shot from great train robbery, i saw it in a book and i always thought it was really cool. ive never seen the great train robbery as a matter of fact, and what you guys said about the shot in terms of story and stuff is right, i agree with you, that's what i think too, but upon my first viewing my immediate feeling was like "oh, look at what scorsese done".
keep in mind that i was four when it was released, and i never actually saw it until i was about thirteen, having just discovered marty.
Not a question of who I saw it with when I was 15, it's a common reaction from people who've seen it. And it doesn't look like Henry's looking at Tommy, but at the audience. The shot seems out of place and I think everybody I've ever seen it with has a strange reaction to it. Regardless of whether they get it. In fact, I think the only reason we're talking about it is because it stands out. It stands out because it doesn't fit.
It would've been funny actually if they'd equated a gangster trying to whack Henry with the flying newspaper -- the only thing he needs to duck now in boring suburbia.
And I've never met anybody who feels so strongly about Tommy's death. He was the biggest piece of shit of all of them. You see, unlike a lot of people, I've never had any interest in gansters or ganster movies. They're inherently about stupid people doing stupid things and usually in a violent way. I'm not particularly excited by their actions and I don't feel a great deal of compassion for them. If anything, I think movies have glamorized these people who are about as low and materialistic as it gets. Reread my arguments. They're pretty fuckin' valid.
all the arguments are, but I still think the shot fits perfectly.
Quote from: mutinycoIn fact, I think the only reason we're talking about it is because it stands out. It stands out because it doesn't fit.
Nah the only reason we're talking about it is because you think it doesn't fit, and we are all trying to tell you why it
does fit, and you aren't listening to us. The points you are making are valid, but they lose all credibility when we realize you wouldn't like the movie anyway.
Besides, it would be really dumb if the last shot was just him picking up the paper and walking back inside. In fact, that would be such a terrible anticlimatic ending. It would also be pretty dumb if there were Great Train Robbery references throughout the film
QuoteAnd I've never met anybody who feels so strongly about Tommy's death. He was the biggest piece of shit of all of them
Um, I think you missed the point of what I wrote, but while we are on the subject, I think it's quite an accomplishment when a filmmaker can make the audience feel very sad about the death of such a terrible "piece of shit."
QuoteYou see, unlike a lot of people, I've never had any interest in gansters or ganster movies.
Oh. Well... Nevermind then. You are obviously better than everyone else.
QuoteThey're inherently about stupid people doing stupid things and usually in a violent way.
Yeah but watching people doing smart things all the time is so boring.
Um, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about and would probably be better off just finding another panda to screw so your spieces doesn't become extinct. I do like Goodfellas. And if you've ever read anything of mine you'd know that. It doesn't change the fact that the shot doesn't belong. I just mentioned this debate to my roommate and he agreed. He knew exactly what I meant.
My points are totally valid and the fact that I do like the movie only serves to better reinforce them. I am listening to you, but you're not making an argument in response to support why it works other than an emphatic opinion. The movie's ending IS anticlimatic -- with or without the shot. IT HAS NO DRAMATIC CONTEXT. And you don't need multiple references to The Great Train Robbery throughout -- but to make a single reference THAT FAR into your film as your conclusion is weak, random, and poorly conceived.
As for feeling sad about Tommy's death, if that's what you felt, you've got worse problems than a bad filmic sense. He was a piece of shit. He died. I thought the overhead shot of his blood spilling was pretty at least. Watching smart people on film isn't necessarily interesting, however watching hours of dumb people has a distancing effect. It's essentially justifying their behavior -- just by alotting them the time. Like you said, you felt sorry for Tommy. What for? Because the director manipulated you to? You're that gullible?
I didn't feel sorry for Tommy in 'Goodfellas' (I was glad they blasted the little prick) but I did feel sorry for Nicky (Pesci again) at the end of 'Casino' (and I hated that guy too). Only because of the sheer brutality involved (crying while watching his little brother get beaten to death before the same happens to him). I guess Scorcese manipulated me there. Successfully too.
Quote from: mutinycoAnd I've never met anybody who feels so strongly about Tommy's death. He was the biggest piece of shit of all of them. You see, unlike a lot of people, I've never had any interest in gansters or ganster movies. They're inherently about stupid people doing stupid things and usually in a violent way.
Not to defend gangsters here or anything, but think about the people you care about in your life.... there's no one that other folks think is a jerk? You don't know anybody with big character flaws? We all have them, it may not be murder, but we tend to overlook the bad shit about people who are our friends, simply because, well, we like them. The beauty of this flick was that it let us sit in on this group of guys, and Henry, he knew Tommy was a hot-headed bastard, but look how much he likes him, they're buddies, Tommy makes him laugh, etc. Look how fucking sad Jimmy is when he finds out about Tommy. Forget for a second that Tommy was a rat bastard and realize that really, it's a shame when ANYBODY is caused pain, even a fucker who caused it in a lot of other people. I was not so much affected by Tommy's death than by Jimmy's reaction. It played a lot more truthful to me than a lot of bullshit movies where someone's relative dies, and they sit by the bed crying. Scorsese took these scumbags and pulled us into their world and gave us a unique look at them, so that we (me anyway) can feel just how terrible they probably felt when he died. This was one of their best friends. Think about all those mothers you see crying in the paper when their punk son gets shot in a drive-by. We always think "the little criminal deserved it", but to her, it's just her poor baby boy gone forever. It's not glamorizing it (Marty shows us the shit people end up in when they follow this lifestyle), it's putting us for a second on the other side of the fence. I think that, if you see a death/pain in a movie, and you don't feel for it, then the character was drawn too one-dimensional (ie. to be a "bad guy"), and that doesn't sit well with me. Tommy was a rounded character, maybe a violent prick, yes, but still with good points, as we all are. Good and bad, all at the same time. Essentially, human.
that says it all. i think this debate is now ended.
Quote from: thedogQuote from: mutinycoIn fact, I think the only reason we're talking about it is because it stands out. It stands out because it doesn't fit.
Nah the only reason we're talking about it is because you think it doesn't fit, and we are all trying to tell you why it does fit, and you aren't listening to us. The points you are making are valid, but they lose all credibility when we realize you wouldn't like the movie anyway.
Besides, it would be really dumb if the last shot was just him picking up the paper and walking back inside. In fact, that would be such a terrible anticlimatic ending. It would also be pretty dumb if there were Great Train Robbery references throughout the film
QuoteAnd I've never met anybody who feels so strongly about Tommy's death. He was the biggest piece of shit of all of them
Um, I think you missed the point of what I wrote, but while we are on the subject, I think it's quite an accomplishment when a filmmaker can make the audience feel very sad about the death of such a terrible "piece of shit."
QuoteYou see, unlike a lot of people, I've never had any interest in gansters or ganster movies.
Oh. Well... Nevermind then. You are obviously better than everyone else.
QuoteThey're inherently about stupid people doing stupid things and usually in a violent way.
Yeah but watching people doing smart things all the time is so boring.
Hey, mutinyco has interviewed celebrities...he's obviously right about everything! How dare you have an opinion that differs from him.
Seriously though, gangsters are just fascinating to watch. Watching an accountant do really smart things with numbers isn't half as exciting as watching Tommy get into a ridiculously dumb argument with his compatriots over a plate of fucking Rigatoni. Sorry, but that's just my take on this.
That's funny that you liked DeNiro's reaction. I always thought it was one of the worst examples of fake crying on film I've ever seen.
"Stuck in the Middle with You" - Resevoir Dogs.
obvious choice for me but its all i can think of :
Can We Still be Friends - to the murder scene in Vanilla Sky
Ballad Of the Easy Rider - Easy Rider
and moving on........
Imagine Goodfellas without Joe Pesci.
That's why it's sad when he dies.
but anyway...
There's so many examples but off the top of my head, Fight The Power (Public Enemy) in Do The Right Thing.
Quote from: Vile5"What a Wonderful World" - Bowling for Columbine
I'm suprised Moore did what he did with that song...I expected more of him. It's too ironic...the plane crashing ->
what a wonderful world.
We get it!
Actually I wasn't expecting for that final "ooooh, -crash- yeah..."
fucking amal- "i wanna know what love is" by foreigner during the make-out scene.
vanilla sky- good vibrations. (hated the movie but i love that part).
Best ironic use of music in a movie - maybe "There's something about Mary" and anything by the the Coens. These come first in my mind.
Quote from: pookiethecat(hated the movie but i love that part).
me too, but I did like the original.
I dunno if it's been said, but I always got a kick out of this (http://netheaduniversity.com/sounds/UArkansasFayettevillewilliamtell.mp3) in Clockwork Orange.
I always imagined a horse race up until this seeing this movie for the first time.
"Happiness", especially, the part where the dad walks into the park with the machine gun and it's playing that sweet, corny music and then he shoots everyone.
I'll second Blue Velvet's use of In Dreams by Roy Orbison and Love Letters. I also liked Wild At Heart's inclusion of Wicked Game by Chris Isaak.
In Blue Velvet, Frank whispers something to "So Fucking Suave" Ben about the Candy Covered Clown. I think he makes a request for Ben to sing it, which is In Dreams.
I am obviously a Lynch-ian and his pairing with composer Angelo Badalamenti is a match made in cinematic heaven.
Of course, The End by the Doors in Apocolypse Now has to be the most fitting. And most anything in Spinal Tap was ironically hilarious.
Quote from: aclockworkjjQuote from: pookiethecat(hated the movie but i love that part).
me too, but I did like the original.
Am I the only one who thinks Vanilla Sky is an improvement to an already great movie?
I don't know what it's called, but that one old song played in House of 1,000 Corpses when it goes slow motion.
Quote from: RoyalTenenbaumQuote from: aclockworkjjQuote from: pookiethecat(hated the movie but i love that part).
me too, but I did like the original.
Am I the only one who thinks Vanilla Sky is an improvement to an already great movie?
I think that way too, but im pretty biased, im a huge Cameron Crowe fan. (as evidenced by my signature, etc) *
* although my Crowe fandom came to be AFTER Vanilla Sky :?