Do any of you ever find yourselves bound by the confines of having to tell a story. I see so much and feel so much that I want to convey to an audiance, but to do it I have to have an interesting and entertaining story. It's like story is a necessary evil. I need a story so that I can have an audiance, and then I can say what I really want to say, and this may or may not have anything to do with the story I'm trying to tell. I want to make films about pure emotions, moments that jump off the screen and connect, but to do this you MUST have a good story. I ALWAYS have images and dialoge in my head, but never in the context of a story. Do any of you feel the same way?
direct televison commercials and music videos -- pure visual emotion -- no story.
or make abstract films.
You don't need a story before you make a movie, but I think all movies will inevitably make their own stories.
I know exactly what you're talking about Blackman. I usually tend to think in themes when I start thinking about my scripts and then I get so frustrated trying to come up with a story that will be good for the theme. But then, another problem I have is I want to convey so many different ideas when I get started that I start thinking about writing another one, and nothing ever gets done!
I'm working on one right now, that I've forcing myself to finish. No matter how badly it sucks. I just wanna get it done.
Blackman: Do you have any tricks for generating premises?
Quote from: EL__SCORCHOBlackman: Do you have any tricks for generating premises?
I like to think of something that's really funny and try to make it serious, or think of something that's absurd and try to make it sincere.
Quote from: EL__SCORCHOI usually tend to think in themes when I start thinking about my scripts and then I get so frustrated trying to come up with a story that will be good for the theme. But then, another problem I have is I want to convey so many different ideas when I get started that I start thinking about writing another one, and nothing ever gets done!
Same here. I guess I need to just write something and then find a way to use the vague storyline as a jumping off point to what I want to convey.
Quote from: EL__SCORCHOI know exactly what you're talking about Blackman. I usually tend to think in themes when I start thinking about my scripts and then I get so frustrated trying to come up with a story that will be good for the theme. But then, another problem I have is I want to convey so many different ideas when I get started that I start thinking about writing another one, and nothing ever gets done!
I'm working on one right now, that I've forcing myself to finish. No matter how badly it sucks. I just wanna get it done.
Blackman: Do you have any tricks for generating premises?
i know just how you feel, i've never finished a script.
Quote from: cowboykurtisdirect televison commercials and music videos -- pure visual emotion -- no story.
:yabbse-sad:
:arrow:
Quote from: Jeremy BlackmanYou don't need a story before you make a movie, but I think all movies will inevitably make their own stories.
:yabbse-smiley:
Quote from: TeddyDo any of you ever find yourselves bound by the confines of having to tell a story. I see so much and feel so much that I want to convey to an audiance, but to do it I have to have an interesting and entertaining story. It's like story is a necessary evil. I need a story so that I can have an audiance, and then I can say what I really want to say, and this may or may not have anything to do with the story I'm trying to tell. I want to make films about pure emotions, moments that jump off the screen and connect, but to do this you MUST have a good story. I ALWAYS have images and dialoge in my head, but never in the context of a story. Do any of you feel the same way?
EXACTLY the same situation here :cry: you should try to take a different approach to the outcome of your film then. abstract always helps. just write whatever you're thinking and don't consider the audience's reaction. :twisted:
if you dont take an audience into consideration, it will bill a self concious, muddled peice of garbage. if you're not thinking of an audience when writng it -- why dont you just project it in your basement and YOU can be the audience. itll never have to go any further.
Quote from: cowboykurtisif you dont take an audience into consideration, it will bill a self concious, muddled peice of garbage. if you're not thinking of an audience when writng it -- why dont you just project it in your basement and YOU can be the audience. itll never have to go any further.
I kind of agree with what you're saying. There has to a story in there, thats why they call directors storytellers. However I don't think you have to keep an audience in mind when writing. If you're writing a good solid story, there will always be an audience for it no matter what. It's style that fucks a lot of writers up. I think a lot of people try to write "really cool dialogue" or try to incorporate crazy structure just to make it "unique" and then the story suffers. Then they complain that nobody gets them, or their work. That's just a bad excuse for not having paid enough attention to the story.
Quote from: EL__SCORCHOQuote from: cowboykurtisif you dont take an audience into consideration, it will bill a self concious, muddled peice of garbage. if you're not thinking of an audience when writng it -- why dont you just project it in your basement and YOU can be the audience. itll never have to go any further.
I kind of agree with what you're saying. There has to a story in there, thats why they call directors storytellers. However I don't think you have to keep an audience in mind when writing. If you're writing a good solid story, there will always be an audience for it no matter what. It's style that fucks a lot of writers up. I think a lot of people try to write "really cool dialogue" or try to incorporate crazy structure just to make it "unique" and then the story suffers. Then they complain that nobody gets them, or their work. That's just a bad excuse for not having paid enough attention to the story.
agreed
Quote from: cowboykurtisQuote from: EL__SCORCHOQuote from: cowboykurtisif you dont take an audience into consideration, it will bill a self concious, muddled peice of garbage. if you're not thinking of an audience when writng it -- why dont you just project it in your basement and YOU can be the audience. itll never have to go any further.
I kind of agree with what you're saying. There has to a story in there, thats why they call directors storytellers. However I don't think you have to keep an audience in mind when writing. If you're writing a good solid story, there will always be an audience for it no matter what. It's style that fucks a lot of writers up. I think a lot of people try to write "really cool dialogue" or try to incorporate crazy structure just to make it "unique" and then the story suffers. Then they complain that nobody gets them, or their work. That's just a bad excuse for not having paid enough attention to the story.
agreed
I agree with all of that too. This is the same problem I face when trying to think of a story. I'll get something in my head that revolves around images and feelings, mostly inspired by my everyday life, and then I'll try to think of a story to build around it. The problem is, all I come up with visually does not have a match for anything I come up with narratively.
For example, I came up with a great idea for a story a couple of weeks ago. This was the most excited I had been in weeks, so I wrote pages of ideas for the film and what I wanted to do story-wise. After I read my notes a couple of days later, I realized this could be the start of a great film, but I did not connect with it at all. It was something great narratively, but the visual style that would be best to shoot the movie in was something that I was totally against. So I scrapped the idea.
See, if I don't get it visually, then I loose all interest. That is why I need a loose story that can let me run wild with the visuals while still keeping an audiance.
Quote from: TeddyQuote from: cowboykurtisQuote from: EL__SCORCHOQuote from: cowboykurtisif you dont take an audience into consideration, it will bill a self concious, muddled peice of garbage. if you're not thinking of an audience when writng it -- why dont you just project it in your basement and YOU can be the audience. itll never have to go any further.
I kind of agree with what you're saying. There has to a story in there, thats why they call directors storytellers. However I don't think you have to keep an audience in mind when writing. If you're writing a good solid story, there will always be an audience for it no matter what. It's style that fucks a lot of writers up. I think a lot of people try to write "really cool dialogue" or try to incorporate crazy structure just to make it "unique" and then the story suffers. Then they complain that nobody gets them, or their work. That's just a bad excuse for not having paid enough attention to the story.
agreed
I agree with all of that too. This is the same problem I face when trying to think of a story. I'll get something in my head that revolves around images and feelings, mostly inspired by my everyday life, and then I'll try to think of a story to build around it. The problem is, all I come up with visually does not have a match for anything I come up with narratively.
For example, I came up with a great idea for a story a couple of weeks ago. This was the most excited I had been in weeks, so I wrote pages of ideas for the film and what I wanted to do story-wise. After I read my notes a couple of days later, I realized this could be the start of a great film, but I did not connect with it at all. It was something great narratively, but the visual style that would be best to shoot the movie in was something that I was totally against. So I scrapped the idea.
See, if I don't get it visually, then I loose all interest. That is why I need a loose story that can let me run wild with the visuals while still keeping an audiance.
i used to have that problem as well. i would get very attached to the visual element -- this is a very bad thing in my opinion. you have to learn to seperate the roles: do not think as a director when writing. the story has to exist on the page. dont worry abot visuals. let the characters breath life. if you're screenplay is brilliant from a story standpoint, the adding of a strong visual approach to the story will make it twice as strong. however if you get caught up with visuals when writing, teh story will suffer. be a responsible writer first -- after its written, then put on the director hat.
A well-developed structure is key to a good story. Sorry for the beginning scriptwriting cliches, but any writing teacher will tell u they are essential and can really help.
First off, the best thing to do when u are having trouble with writing is to put it away for a day or two. Staying up late every night constantly rewriting can lead to mixed results. U know when u stay up really late writing something u are sure is a masterpiece only to wake up the next day to find endless pages of mindless drivel? Yeah, well sometimes u need to take a break to get a fresh look at ur stuff. Once you've done that ask yourself these 4 questions-
1. Who's story is it?
2. What do they want?
3. Who/what is stopping them?
4. Why should we care?
If you can answer those four questions well, then u should be on the right track structure wise.
Also, remember that dialogue does not make a movie. This is something I had trouble with when I first started writing. The cool Tarantino dialogue may be okay for character and its okay to have, but it won't drive a story all by itself. Dialogue is just the icing on a cake. Try writing little short scenes of no more than 7 or 8 pages with little to no dialogue, concentrating more on visuals and telling a story with pictures, which is what a movie is.
Quote from: budgieQuote from: cowboykurtisdirect televison commercials and music videos -- pure visual emotion -- no story.
:yabbse-sad:
:arrow:
Quote from: Jeremy BlackmanYou don't need a story before you make a movie, but I think all movies will inevitably make their own stories.
:yabbse-smiley:
I will miss you when you leave.
Quote from: Newtron
I will miss you when you leave.
(https://xixax.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vcl.ru%2Fhtml%2Flcc%2Fsampl%2Fkill_me.jpg&hash=03fbb8d9678c5c1ef9ef2d2161e1b8ea2d547011)
:kiss: :lying: :fadein:
Quote from: cbrad4d
Once you've done that ask yourself these 4 questions-
1. Who's story is it?
2. What do they want?
3. Who/what is stopping them?
4. Why should we care?
I think you can sum up those 4 points by simply saying : conflict. Every single scene has to have conflict. Like you said- what do they want , their a goal, who is stopping them from getting their goal. Pure and simple, conflict.
If you write a script where the protagonist is consistenly conflicted by believable antagonists (doesnt have to be a person) and takes believable steps to get his goal , I think for the most part the reader will care.
QuoteAlso, remember that dialogue does not make a movie.
Also remember that dialogue may not make a movie but can KILL a movie.
The worst part of EVERY script I have read has ALWAYS without a doubt been the dialogue. I think this is where most writers have trouble and this is where great writers and good writers part ways.
Go to Project Greenlight or Triggerstreet or other script sites, read some scripts, I have read soooooooooooooo many with what promises to be a good story and the dialogue grates on me so badly it aches, because there are some great stories out there being ruined by grade schooler dialogue.
Those who can write great dialogue, hence strong characters, have a hand up at a good film, because "story" can be as simple (and often is) as boy meets girl, girl can't stand boy, series of mishaps, boy and girl fall in love. Name that movie - it's every other film ever made, and yet it's Annie Hall, it's Sleepless in Seattle, it's Punch Drunk Love it's so many others where the story is driven by the characters and what they say and MORE IMPORTANTLY what they DON't SAY! I hate reading scripts where charcaters become villains from James Bond stories and have to tell the audience what is going on - WE'RE WATCHING THE MOVIE FOR GOD'S SAKE WE CAN SEE WHAT'S GOING ON - dialogue should emote feelings, hide truths and spin lies, it should be what we say, and what we mean, what we want to say, what we stammer out, what we wished we'd said and mutter to ourselves minutes afterward, what we scream in anger, what we whisper in moments of passion, all the things that are soft and subtle, all the hateful things we don't mean. Dialogue is POWER. As much as visuals and more. A single line spoken during a tense moment uttered out of nervousness, that "eep" as the killer is behind the stairs. Dialogue in it's entirity, whether it be monologues, or whether it be to words spoken after an hour of silence, they better be the right two words.
So endeth the soap box rant.
Quote from: michael alessandroQuoteAlso, remember that dialogue does not make a movie.
Also remember that dialogue may not make a movie but can KILL a movie.
The worst part of EVERY script I have read has ALWAYS without a doubt been the dialogue. I think this is where most writers have trouble and this is where great writers and good writers part ways.
Go to Project Greenlight or Triggerstreet or other script sites, read some scripts, I have read soooooooooooooo many with what promises to be a good story and the dialogue grates on me so badly it aches, because there are some great stories out there being ruined by grade schooler dialogue.
Those who can write great dialogue, hence strong characters, have a hand up at a good film, because "story" can be as simple (and often is) as boy meets girl, girl can't stand boy, series of mishaps, boy and girl fall in love. Name that movie - it's every other film ever made, and yet it's Annie Hall, it's Sleepless in Seattle, it's Punch Drunk Love it's so many others where the story is driven by the characters and what they say and MORE IMPORTANTLY what they DON't SAY! I hate reading scripts where charcaters become villains from James Bond stories and have to tell the audience what is going on - WE'RE WATCHING THE MOVIE FOR GOD'S SAKE WE CAN SEE WHAT'S GOING ON - dialogue should emote feelings, hide truths and spin lies, it should be what we say, and what we mean, what we want to say, what we stammer out, what we wished we'd said and mutter to ourselves minutes afterward, what we scream in anger, what we whisper in moments of passion, all the things that are soft and subtle, all the hateful things we don't mean. Dialogue is POWER. As much as visuals and more. A single line spoken during a tense moment uttered out of nervousness, that "eep" as the killer is behind the stairs. Dialogue in it's entirity, whether it be monologues, or whether it be to words spoken after an hour of silence, they better be the right two words.
So endeth the soap box rant.
That was fucking perfect man. Dialogue has to strike a chord with the audience, make 'em wince or draw their blood...
And personally, I've always liked what P.T. Anderson said in the director's commentary of
Hard Eight: "If you get two characters talking to each other, one will lead the other to where you want to go...."
I might have butchered that quote, but you get the idea--WRITE! Fuck the internal editor. It's only a first draft. Critizise yourself later, but for now WRITE!!!
QuoteThat was fucking perfect man.
May I use that quote everywhere I go from now on? I may have it printed on t-shirts.
Thanks for the props. :roll:
This is some great advise. I just started writing a short film that is more a portrait of myself than anything. Everything that I've expirianced in the past couple of months I'm pouring out on paper, and it's actually shaping up to be something meaningful, and not just to me. I don't know if anyone will actually get what I'm trying to convey, but I am trying. And now, at least for this film, if they don't get it, I don't care. This film is for me.
That was a really nice rant, Michael.
Quote from: TeddyDo any of you ever find yourselves bound by the confines of having to tell a story. I see so much and feel so much that I want to convey to an audiance, but to do it I have to have an interesting and entertaining story. It's like story is a necessary evil. I need a story so that I can have an audiance, and then I can say what I really want to say, and this may or may not have anything to do with the story I'm trying to tell. I want to make films about pure emotions, moments that jump off the screen and connect, but to do this you MUST have a good story. I ALWAYS have images and dialoge in my head, but never in the context of a story. Do any of you feel the same way?
Watch
Un chien andalou (http://us.imdb.com/Title?0020530) and you'll never feel that way again. Heck, watch
Mulholland Drive and you'll realize that sometimes stories can be secondary to emotions that a movie conveys. It's all about what your intent is, and as long as that is strong, and you stick with it, the film should turn out fine.
But sometimes the confines of genre expectations in a really tight story can give the mind a perfect place to let loose as those emotions and ideas in I guess what could be called a subversive way. It's kinda like this goofy analogy: you put an animal in a pen, and it can't run away, but it can do whatever it wants in the confine of it's pen. So that "necessary evil" of story becomes a machine that focuses your work. So many inexperienced writers (and I mean that not in a negative way) have grand ambitions, and wanna do everything in one telling, and the work becomes an unfocused mishmash of all the movies they liked from the last ten years. Now I'm all for ripping stuff off, but we'd all be better off having to use cliches, and forcing ourselves to think of new ways to view them, and make them pleasing not only to ourselves, but to an audience. Then, once we're comfortable with that, continue pushing boundaries from film to film, until you have loosed yourself from the commercial narrative, and people want to go see your films because they are "your style" and that becomes the selling feature. Too many wannabe artists try to be avant garde just for the sake of being it, rather than doing the work to master narrative.
Whew. That was a mouthful. All that being said, I feel your pain. Everytime I write something new, this racks my mind.
Oh, and what Michael said about dialogue, so true. But of equal importance is the casting, because no matter how good your dialogue is, an actor can fuck it up. And then the lighting, because no matter how good your actors are, the visuals are gonna carry the effect of the story. And then of course the editing, and the sound..... aarrgghhh. Isn't it wonderful that to make a good movie script work, everything, absolutely everything must be pitch perfect. And yet it never can be. Fun.
Talk = cheap.
Stop making excuses and make a film.
Quote from: pokkaTalk = cheap.
talk costs alot of money up here in canada. this is why we just write down what wed like to say and give the paper to the person wed like to say it too. its a very slow and painful process, but quite funny when watching people arguing.
you americans always have to flaunt your better economy, dont you?