Lost (spoilers)

[edison]

This season is turning out to be amazing. Loved everything about this episode. That payload time thing was nutz. Wonder who this war in the future is against? Darma vs ?

[Raikus]

I think the war in the future is Dharma vs. the Oceanic 6. The 6 that left did so because they needed to come back to protect the others on the island. That's what Sayid is doing; eliminating the hierarchy of the Dharma initiative to stop them from finding the island again, harnessing its power and protecting the people that stayed behind.

I also have a theory about the time distortion the island is in. If the theory posted before is correct (and... wow, it seems pretty spot on in most cases) and the time machine element was incorporated into the island's magnetic field, then instead of a time "bubble" it could have created a time distortion that conformed to the magnetic field. Instead of a bubble, the island could be trapped in a type of Van Allen belt.

So instead of a circle, think of a figure eight or infinity symbol that protects the island. Except depending on certain approaches to the island, the time distortion is minimal or even not at all existing. That's the path the helicopter took in to come back in time to the island. That's the path they can go back and escape from as well. The rocket took a slightly different path, but was still pretty much towards the center of the figure eight distortion to it showed a time shift between travel and perception.

Also, Ben is not one of the Oceanic 6.

[Sleepless]

Best episode of the season so far. I really like Sayid, yet I thought there was no way he would get off the island, and if he did he would be really boring back in the real world. So I think what they've decided to do with him was a great choice. And they did job of disguising Ben's voice until they cut to him. Awesome episode. And I'm not even bothering with all the theories, I'm just enjoying the ride 

[Gamblour.]

There seems to be a fundamental problem with the time loop theory. It's his assertion (axiom if you will) that there would be two plane crashes somehow. Because if Ana Lucia's partner is asking about her, then obviously the plane definitely crashed in 2001 (or whatever year it is according to his timeline). And also how can the Oceanic 6 even be called the Oceanic 6 if they are reliving the past 3-4 years of their life (before the flight ever even takes off, mind you). That also doesn't make any sense. I'm just going off what I remember, so if someone can refute this, please do. I'd like to eradicate this theory, as good as it is.

[ElPandaRoyal]

Awesome episode. And I'm not even bothering with all the theories, I'm just enjoying the ride 

That's pretty much all I have to say about it.

Today was a great day. CMBB in the afternoon and a great Lost episode to end it. There IS a god.

[picolas]

i wish i could ignore the time theory (which was an awesome read, thanks polk) and watch without thinking i know anything i'm not supposed to know but i can't help but piece stuff together. especially with the crazy helicopter landings and "stay on that bearing no matter what (or you'll be effed by father time)" hopefully i'll kinda forget it. it's amazing how much we know now that we didn't at the start of the season.

[polkablues]

I came this close to posting a spoiler warning on the time loop theory, but I talked myself out of it.  Now I'm starting to think it would be a good idea...  At the very least, anyone who doesn't want to run the risk of being spoiled, DON'T READ IT.  Because damn... the payload thing in last night's episode....  Fuck it, I'm going back and putting a spoiler warning next to that link.

Gamblour, read the questions and answers section on the website.  You've definitely pointed out the apparent weak point in the theory, but he does a good job of addressing the question, even though I still have a tough time wrapping my head around it.  Honestly, having read it, nothing would make me happier than finding out new information that makes the whole thing fall apart (although it's becoming clear that, at the very least, SOME aspects of the theory will prove accurate).

[Gamblour.]

Yeah, this season has been just giving heaps of information away. The time loop does make a lot of sense, but i think we're caving to its tenets too easily. Let's reconsider them:

-You can travel back in time. HOWEVER, you will remain the same age for some reason, your physical ailments will disappear (which are defined as what exactly? not a kidney transplant or Ben's illness?)

-There were two plane crashes, one in 2004 and a fake one in 2001 set up by Dharma. But how could there be a fake one if a plane didn't crash to begin with? Did they set up and crash another Flight 815?? If so, why does Ana Lucia's partner ask Hurley about her? Speaking of, what about the Oceanic 6?  That is the deal breaker, that piece doesn't fit.

The notions on which everything is built are poorly designed and are probably some sort of logical fallacy, because they are built backwards, given the facts and constructed to fit the facts. The fact that elements of the show do fit the logic is used as evidence for it, when really the tenets are flawed from the start.

The time travel detailed is both cheap and stupid. It's not like any time travel, accounts for too many of the events, and is really lazy writing. Unless the writers had it in their mind this entire time, and even if they did, it would be a huge cop out. Time travel? Ugh, and with all these rules.

The funny thing about the theory is the guy describes it as having a lot to do with fate/destiny when it really doesn't, because you can avoid it all together in a fucking time loop. The characters' decision dealing with fate/destiny have everything to do with their histories, hence why the flashbacks are a vital component of the show! It's about how they change as people and being locked into thinking one's path in life so far was their destiny. For people like Locke with radical change happening, they can change their course (ah, this sounds better, doesn't it? Fits in with Desmond's thematic time travel better).

Some of the rules with the time travel are avoiding the obvious. People don't have disease on the island because they went back a few years. I bet Rose's cancer is older than 4 years if she's dying from it, and then wouldn't they just start to develop it again after enough time passed? The island has curative abilities, OBVIOUSLY, and this is in direct relation to the guy in the outback that Rose and Bernard visit. Mikhail's ears and people's gunshot wounds aren't going back in time and thus healing.

Additionally, the idea of "half-dead" individuals he details and people traveling through time erases the idea of spiritual communion with the island, the kind that Ben has when he sees his mother or that Locke has on his spirit quest. Making everything more literal in its construction wipes out any aura or larger-than-life (maybe religious?) aspects of the island and makes it a flat out lame, overused sci-fi convention. Time travel isn't lame (as Futurama has showed us) but this version of it is. That this guy has formulated logic around the show in which the pieces fit doesn't mean the logic is correct.

Case closed (for me at least).

polka, I just saw your post. I think the payload may have a simpler explanation having to do with temporal distortion, because even that piece doesn't fit. So it was off by 31 minutes? How do that work in the rules this guy has constructed? He will probably just say it has something to do with the time loop bubble still being around even though it was eradicated with the fail safe key. The payload makes me concede that temporal distortions are part of the islands powers, but that makes more sense and is more interesting than a machine Dharma invents.

As a side note, his explanation of Locke's dad places too much importance on his role in this, linking him to Dharma, when it makes more sense that the island is mystical and capable of such events to further one on their course in life.

[polkablues]

I think you've poked a lot of good holes there.  It's true, with this type of synthetic a priori reasoning, that once a theory has been established, it can be molded to cram almost any new information into it.  Actually, your points, while I feel like you're too quick to reject certain things (the physical ailments issue, especially), are going a long way towards helping me get past this theory.

I do, however, disagree with your notion that literal explanations would devalue the story in some way.  The show is fundamentally a mystery built on the notion that there will be an answer for every question raised.  If those answers are to include ghosts and mystical healing forces, that's fine, but in order to make that satisfying, they still have to develop the story world in such a way that those devices are literal functions of the universe in which the show takes place.  In no way, shape, or form can they ever fall back on, "Oh, it's a spiritual thing; there's no explanation for it," without it being a slap in the face to the audience.  If anything, I think the "half-dead person" theory, by taking what seems to the characters to be a spiritual connection to the island and turning that on its head, adds a layer of complexity and meaning to the story, not takes one away.

[Gamblour.]

What about the physical ailments issue are your referring to? I still think the island can heal, but not in the way the "theorist" states with time travel.

You have a good point in regards to literal explanations -- they of course have to happen. But some of his rationalizations do take away from a lot of things on the show right now. When their explanations come, I do think there will be an element of mystery still there. They can't say that people can see ghosts because of the island, for example, with any rationale that would not incorporate a mystical, spiritual element. But if there is a relationship regarding half-dead people and the island, and I think there may be one given the way the show treats them, I don't think it will be because of some machine created by Dharma. It will still be a foundation of the island and that won't be so easily explained away.

[polkablues]

I just think that of all the areas where the time loop theory seems iffy, the issue of people being healed isn't one of them.  There does seem to be a logical consistency to the notion that when the characters are sent back in time, their physiology reverts to its earlier state and catches up from there.  Or, at the very least, it's one aspect of the theory that can't yet be summarily dismissed from study of the text.

For example: Locke had been swindled out of his kidney prior to the time loop period, but was paralyzed within the time loop period.  Therefore, when he arrives at the island, he has reverted to the physical state he was in at the start of that period, with working legs but without a kidney.  There's no reason to suspect that Rose's cancer is more than four years old (the rate at which different cancers metastisize is widely variable), so it's perfectly reasonable that she would find it completely remissed at the beginning of the time loop.  And then, theoretically, when they reach the correct point in the timeline, Rose's cancer will return, and something will happen that causes Locke to be paralyzed again -- the "course correction" referred to in the theory.

[Kal]

Good review of the episode and some ideas of what the hell is happening...

http://blog.zap2it.com/ithappenedlastnight/2008/02/lost-the-man-be.html

[pumba]

Do you think that in future seasons the climate of the island will change to winter?

That could explain Hurley's Igloo drawing and Sayid picking up the snow.

[Gamblour.]

I just think that of all the areas where the time loop theory seems iffy, the issue of people being healed isn't one of them.  There does seem to be a logical consistency to the notion that when the characters are sent back in time, their physiology reverts to its earlier state and catches up from there.  Or, at the very least, it's one aspect of the theory that can't yet be summarily dismissed from study of the text.

For example: Locke had been swindled out of his kidney prior to the time loop period, but was paralyzed within the time loop period.  Therefore, when he arrives at the island, he has reverted to the physical state he was in at the start of that period, with working legs but without a kidney.  There's no reason to suspect that Rose's cancer is more than four years old (the rate at which different cancers metastisize is widely variable), so it's perfectly reasonable that she would find it completely remissed at the beginning of the time loop.  And then, theoretically, when they reach the correct point in the timeline, Rose's cancer will return, and something will happen that causes Locke to be paralyzed again -- the "course correction" referred to in the theory.

I understand that those two cases work within the context of the theory, but Jin, for example, his sperm count goes back to normal when he gets on the island, he gets Sun pregnant. Shooting blanks isn't something that he could "go back" to because being sterile seems to be a permanent condition. And remember, Juliet says that men's sperm counts are extremely high on the island. That could have nothing to do with the time loop.

And let's just consider what feels more likely: the island is healing Rose's cancer and John's paralysis (I don't imagine it could grow a kidney back) or an arbitrary rule of time travel is reverting them back?

[abuck1220]

Do you think that in future seasons the climate of the island will change to winter?

That could explain Hurley's Igloo drawing and Sayid picking up the snow.

i've always thought that would be a cool way to start an episode...one of the characters walks out of their tent one morning and it's snowing.


that theory is interesting, but it's stupid how every time he comes across something he can't explain, he just says "oh, [libby, locke's dad, hurley's imaginary friend] was originally part of dharma." that's pretty weak.