I rewatched it last week (and I've now seen it a total of two times). I was telling a friend how much I admired it as hyper-creative sci/fi-adventure. But he found it to be "full of holes," and pointed out the question as to why the rebel characters had to make it to certain points in the Matrix (phones, usually) in order to "beam back" into their real selves onboard the Nebuchadnezzar (in similar fashion, btw, to the way the thieves in Time Bandits get around in time). Was that a logical flaw for you?
Are there other potentially huge logisitical problems with The Matrix? What are they?
I want it to be a good, sensible alternate world...but I feel like it must be illogical in certain ways....help?
Quote from: MeshBut he found it to be "full of holes," and pointed out the question as to why the rebel characters had to make it to certain points in the Matrix (phones, usually) in order to "beam back" into their real selves onboard the Nebuchadnezzar (in similar fashion, btw, to the way the thieves in Time Bandits get around in time). Was that a logical flaw for you?
They have to make it to phone 'hardlines' in order to get out. Which is why they can't use their cell phones. In the opening Trinity says "They cut the hardline. I can't get out." Those secure phone lines act as their portals.
i get how they can call each other on their special cell phones, but when neo steals the dudes phone while he's running, how can an ordinary cell phone in the matrix make a call to the real world? heh. dont make no sens-*click
I don't think it has to do with "special cell phones" at all. They were just cell phones.
Quote from: Lesteri get how they can call each other on their special cell phones, but when neo steals the dudes phone while he's running, how can an ordinary cell phone in the matrix make a call to the real world? heh. dont make no sens-*click
What makes you think their phones are special? After he steals the phone, Neo dials in a number. The number would be special to them, not the phones.
but if its some number that you could call on any old phone at any old time, then the agents could easily know how to hack into the nebucanezzer.
Try suspension of disbelief....
I thought it was suspension of belief
no cuz suspension of belief would be disbelief
Quote from: Lesterbut if its some number that you could call on any old phone at any old time, then the agents could easily know how to hack into the nebucanezzer.
I'm sure they changed the number after it was traced in the opening of the film. But I think it has more to do with receiving a signal than what the actual phone number is. Anyway, the ship is sending out a pirate signal and constantly moving, so the Agents can't find them. Which is why at the end they finally are able to locate them when Cypher takes the ship over and the Agents have Morpheus captured. They trace them that way.
Quote from: MacGuffin
They have to make it to phone 'hardlines' in order to get out. Which is why they can't use their cell phones. In the opening Trinity says "They cut the hardline. I can't get out." Those secure phone lines act as their portals.
I understand how the phones are used as plot devices. What I'm asking, though, is "Does it makes sense that Morpheus's rebels would need to get to such portals, seeing that they're all trained to some extent in defying the rules of the Matrix?"
Also, I wanted to know if any of you find other plot elements logically problematic, i.e. does the film The Matrix play fairly by its own rules?
Ghostboy: "suspension of disbelief" is a weak-ass copout, far as this thread's concerned. Try again.
edit: I made this thread because I want to think The Matrix is a solid piece of sci/fi that will hold under rigorous logical inquiry....I want you film nerds to try and shoot holes in the film's logic while others play defense....and I'll contribute where possible...
But you're suspending your beliefs as in you are going to put them on the side for the 2 hours that you sit down to watch the movie and accept certain things in it
Quote from: MeshI understand how the phones are used as plot devices. What I'm asking, though, is "Does it makes sense that Morpheus's rebels would need to get to such portals, seeing that they're all trained to some extent in defying the rules of the Matrix?"
Yes. Those 'defying the rules' are used
inside the Matrix. The portals are used to send the team in and out of the Matrix, using the spikes in the back of their heads. "The mind makes it real" and they need to jack into the mind to enter the Matrix and exit back to reality.
Quote from: tremoloslothBut you're suspending your beliefs as in you are going to put them on the side for the 2 hours that you sit down to watch the movie and accept certain things in it
But that's utterly beside the point of this thread. My personal opinion is that outstanding sci-fi does not require its viewers to suspend disbelief, i.e. the rules the film lays down are followed by its characters and the plot makes sense with respect to said rules.
But then you wouldn't have asked in the first place. The Matrix makes sense to me.
And about the whole suspension thing, I want to know how to use the lingo correctly.
Quote from: MacGuffinQuote from: MeshI understand how the phones are used as plot devices. What I'm asking, though, is "Does it makes sense that Morpheus's rebels would need to get to such portals, seeing that they're all trained to some extent in defying the rules of the Matrix?"
Yes. Those 'defying the rules' are used inside the Matrix. The portals are used to send the team in and out of the Matrix, using the spikes in the back of their heads. "The mind makes it real" and they need to jack into the mind to enter the Matrix and exit back to reality.
OK, but see the film says that the Matrix is a construct that exists only in minds. It is not a place and therefore the concept of locations (like, say, telephone booths) isn't consistent. The phones don't exist; how could they function as technological portals? If those chairs on the Nebuchadnezzar can send people into the Matrix at any given place, why can't they pull them back out from any given place?
(Remember, I've seen this film only twice; I could be missing something.)
Quote from: tremoloslothBut then you wouldn't have asked in the first place. The Matrix makes sense to me.
But I'm not sure it does. Apparently you disagree. Fine. Thanks for your two cents.
May I please add more, or have you severed my line of opinion
Well here I go anyway (and is this really opinion anyway?
)
Quote from: MeshIf those chairs on the Nebuchadnezzar can send people into the Matrix at any given place, why can't they pull them back out from any given place?
(Remember, I've seen this film only twice; I could be missing something.)
They don't send them to any given place. Remember when they were going to see the Oracle(I think it was when they were going to see the oracle, it's when all of them went along) they appeared around a phone.
Quote from: MeshOK, but see the film says that the Matrix is a construct that exists only in minds. It is not a place and therefore the concept of locations (like, say, telephone booths) isn't consistent. The phones don't exist; how could they function as technological portals? If those chairs on the Nebuchadnezzar can send people into the Matrix at any given place, why can't they pull them back out from any given place?
It exists in the minds of those enslaved as batteries. So everything is real to them. Think of it this way, the phone lines are like the phone lines used with your modem to let you get online, and you have to find the right service number to be able get online.
Quote from: MacGuffin
It exists in the minds of those enslaved as batteries. So everything is real to them. Think of it this way, the phone lines are like the phone lines used with your modem to let you get online, and you have to find the right service number to be able get online.
Dude, I don't think you're getting my point.
1. I understand what the plot tells us the phone lines are for.
2. Morpheus's rebels are no longer enslaved as batteries. The Matrix no longer "exists" for them; they recognize it as a construct and use that recognition as a weapon against those in control of the Matrix (they are, in effect, enlightened and exhibit supernatural ability because of it).
3. The phone lines don't exist (see my point #2). Morpheus's rebels should know that they don't exist, yet the plot tells us that they use those non-existent phones as a way to transport in and out of the Matrix. Does that make sense?
I'll think about this more tonight and get back to you guys later. Gotta go to my "No-Internet" job now....
Meanwhile, argue amongst yourselves and, hey, somebody take up my "The Matrix may not make much sense" position...
See the phone booths aren't there but the portals are. The phone booths are just numbers represented visually by the phones. They're just interface, like icons on your desktop.
While Morpheus and his gang understand that they're not really phones, Neo is really the only ONE that can see everything for what it actually is, which gives him more control. Look at what happens in that last battle, he sees the walls and ceiling as ones and zeros, that's what it is... he sees beyond the interface, he can see the code and can therefore defy it better.
So, we can't see beyond one yet... Ghostboy has, but most of us haven't... maybe Neo can now move back and forth without the phones because of his new abilities.
I have a friend, we'll call him ASSFACE, who always claims that THE MATRIX is really good but full of plot holes. When i ask him what plotholes he only can come up with this. ASSFACE-"If neo knows that its all just ones and zereos then he is unstoppable. What is the point of another movie? He knows the truth and cant be stopped so he is invincable." I always come back with "Yeah he knows its all just code. But so does Morpheus and Trinity. Neo is just better at breaking the rules of the code than anyone else. Yeah i agree that he cannot be killed in the matrix but dont you think he could be contained?" I think that is a valid answer to his question. Anyone else agree or care to elaborate so we can shut down people like ASSFACE who throw slander at a movie just because it is to complex for them to understand?
http://xixax.com/viewtopic.php?t=1598
just 'acause Neo can break the rules doesn't mean he can just forget most of all of mankind, enslaved in pods they can't even see...how's he going to save everyone? and Neo ain't immortal in the real world. remember the sentinels...
The "what is the point?" is actually a valid question for the matrix, especially "Reloaded," or so I read. All the kung fu stuff, all the glitz...while entertaining, ultimately does not bear much importance if Neo can see the code and do...pretty much whatever the hell he wants in the matrix. So one would start to question why he remains so constrained in it.
I don't know, the whole thing is kind of stolen from Star Trek...
Sure Neo can see the code, but look at the trailer for "Reloaded". The Agents say "He is still only human." And the computers quest was not to find or get Neo, it is to find Zion and kill all the freed humans. They were only persuring Neo to get to Morpheus because Morpheus has the codes to the city. That is until Cypher made a deal with Agent Smith.
*nerd.......overload........bzzzzzzkt........*
Quote from: RegularKarateSee the phone booths aren't there but the portals are. The phone booths are just numbers represented visually by the phones. They're just interface, like icons on your desktop.
While Morpheus and his gang understand that they're not really phones, Neo is really the only ONE that can see everything for what it actually is, which gives him more control. Look at what happens in that last battle, he sees the walls and ceiling as ones and zeros, that's what it is... he sees beyond the interface, he can see the code and can therefore defy it better.
So, we can't see beyond one yet... Ghostboy has, but most of us haven't... maybe Neo can now move back and forth without the phones because of his new abilities.
Mesh, he nailed it.
Quote from: RegularKarateSee the phone booths aren't there but the portals are. The phone booths are just numbers represented visually by the phones. They're just interface, like icons on your desktop.
While Morpheus and his gang understand that they're not really phones, Neo is really the only ONE that can see everything for what it actually is, which gives him more control. Look at what happens in that last battle, he sees the walls and ceiling as ones and zeros, that's what it is... he sees beyond the interface, he can see the code and can therefore defy it better.
So, we can't see beyond one yet... Ghostboy has, but most of us haven't... maybe Neo can now move back and forth without the phones because of his new abilities.
That's pretty much the answer I've been looking for in this thread. That's the one I gave my friend when he mentioned the phone-portals as logical flaws....
Now lemme go read the rest of the thread...
Quote from: RegularKarateSee the phone booths aren't there but the portals are. The phone booths are just numbers represented visually by the phones. They're just interface, like icons on your desktop.
Shit, I thought about it for a minute, and it's starting to not make sense anymore.
OK, so the Nebuchadnezzar can "hack into" the Matrix, right? Now, it's a pretty safe assumption that the Matrix is a virtual world, basically analogous to, say, the Internet. Once you have access to the Internet, you can "be" anywhere on it; shouldn't that hold for the Matrix? Is there some reason it shouldn't?
If the phone booths are just numbers, why do they have to portal near them?
I dunno, I'm probably overthinking this (what else is new?). If it is a true logical plot hole, it's not a big one. And if the rebels could've ported into and out of any area of the Matrix instantly, it would've been harder to convince the audience of it being a dangerous place, I suppose....
Shit.
Can anyone quote for me what Morpheus says about the "rules of the Matrix"? He has some lines right near the Morpheus/Neo kung-fu battle about "gravity" and other physical laws that still hold in the Matrix....Does he say anything about locations?
Quote from: MeshCan anyone quote for me what Morpheus says about the "rules of the Matrix"? He has some lines right near the Morpheus/Neo kung-fu battle about "gravity" and other physical laws that still hold in the Matrix....Does he say anything about locations?
Morpheus: This is a sparring program. Similiar to the programmed reality of The Matrix. It has the same basic rules; rules like gravity. What you must learn is that these rules are no different than a computer system. Some of them can be bent, others can be broken.
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Also:
Morpheus: I've seen an agent punch through a concrete wall. Men have emptied entire clips at them and hit nothing but air, yet their strength and their speed are still based in a world that is built on rules. Because of that, they will never be as strong or as fast as you can be.
Quote from: MacGuffin
Morpheus: This is a sparring program. Similiar to the programmed reality of The Matrix. It has the same basic rules; rules like gravity. What you must learn is that these rules are no different than a computer system. Some of them can be bent, others can be broken.
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Also:
Morpheus: I've seen an agent punch through a concrete wall. Men have emptied entire clips at them and hit nothing but air, yet their strength and their speed are still based in a world that is built on rules. Because of that, they will never be as strong or as fast as you can be.
Excellent work, MacG. Thanks. Too bad those lines don't do what I'd hoped they might. Goes nowhere as to explaining why virtual phones within the Matrix are such special entry/exit points, yet, if he wants to, Morpheus can make words appear on Neo's computer screen.
Why is this concept so hard to get?
The crew of the Nebuchadnezzar get into the virtual reality program the same way you hack into a system. They find a back door (or the hardline) and insert themselves into the program. It just so happens that the programs recognizes these entry points as telephones. Not all telephones are entry points to the Matrix program, but all entry points are telephones. They can't exit their consciousness from the program unless they find another exit/entry point. The cell phones are just communication devices between the Operator (crew still on the ship) and those who's consciousness have been inserted into the Matrix (think Star Trek communicators). The number they can call on the cell phones in the Matrix represents a frequency that exists in the real world--hence they are merely using them as radios to the contact on the ship.
The reason that they can't exists "anywhere" while in the Matrix is because it exists with rules based on the real world. The program is set up so you can't just access another piece except by the hardline insertion. Obviously Neo breaks this principle as much as possible in Revolutions when he flies to get to Morpheus and Trinity. But that's all he can do. He can't beam directly to another place because, even though he realizes it's a program, he can't break these rules.
Quote from: Raikus
The crew of the Nebuchadnezzar get into the virtual reality program the same way you hack into a system. They find a back door (or the hardline) and insert themselves into the program. It just so happens that the programs recognizes these entry points as telephones. Not all telephones are entry points to the Matrix program, but all entry points are telephones. They can't exit their consciousness from the program unless they find another exit/entry point.
OK, so let me take your "hack in" theorem through logical inquiry. Let's assume hacking into the Matrix is like our real world's hackers hacking in to, say, Microsoft. Real world hackers don't have to "hack out," do they? You'd just switch off the device you used to hack in and you'd be gone, right? Why can't Nebuchadnezzar's Operator do the same, i.e. why do non-physical beings inside a program have to go to these non-physical "things" (the phones) in order to "get out" of the Matrix, which is non-physical itself?
You say: "They can't exit their consciousness from the program unless they find another exit/entry point." But the question is Why? and Does that fact make any sense at all?
Quote from: Meshif he wants to, Morpheus can make words appear on Neo's computer screen.
You think there are no hackers in that world? Neo is one himself.
Quote from: MeshQuote from: Raikus
The crew of the Nebuchadnezzar get into the virtual reality program the same way you hack into a system. They find a back door (or the hardline) and insert themselves into the program. It just so happens that the programs recognizes these entry points as telephones. Not all telephones are entry points to the Matrix program, but all entry points are telephones. They can't exit their consciousness from the program unless they find another exit/entry point.
OK, so let me take your "hack in" theorem through logical inquiry. Let's assume hacking into the Matrix is like our real world's hackers hacking in to, say, Microsoft. Real world hackers don't have to "hack out," do they? You'd just switch off the device you used to hack in and you'd be gone, right? Why can't Nebuchadnezzar's Operator do the same, i.e. why do non-physical beings inside a program have to go to these non-physical "things" (the phones) in order to "get out" of the Matrix, which is non-physical itself?
You say: "They can't exit their consciousness from the program unless they find another exit/entry point." But the question is Why? and Does that fact make any sense at all?
Okay, this will be the last time I explain this, because frankly you passed annoying twenty posts back.
You're comparing of the process that happens in the Matrix with real world hacking is apples and oranges. I merely used it as an example about having to find a way into a system. Real hackers don't insert their consciousness into a program. They also don't have cerebral interfaces in the back of their skulls (most anyway). It's obvious that the Matrix is designed to keep people's consciousnesses trapped in a program that they believe is real life to use their energy to power the robots. So of course the operator can't just hang up their cell phone, terminate connection and their consciousness will return to their body, otherwise every time another person in the Matrix went to sleep or got knocked out they would wake up in a pod.
I realize your trolling for ammo with your friend, but I think you have enough. Every angle is covered showing there are no obvious plot holes. Continuing to reiterate the same questions long after they've been answered is annoying.
If you want a beef with the Matrix, you should really concentrate on the "prophecy" aspects of it. That is, if the Oracle is all-knowing that trustworthy, why did she say Neo wasn't the One?
Quote from: MeshLet's assume hacking into the Matrix is like our real world's hackers hacking in to, say, Microsoft. Real world hackers don't have to "hack out," do they? You'd just switch off the device you used to hack in and you'd be gone, right? Why can't Nebuchadnezzar's Operator do the same, i.e. why do non-physical beings inside a program have to go to these non-physical "things" (the phones) in order to "get out" of the Matrix, which is non-physical itself?
You know how a computer it's not best to just unplug it, but to go through the whole shut down process? Poor example, but same idea. For an Operator to just unplug the spike from the back of their head would fuck with the brain. Remember, the mind makes things real. So to just disappear from the Matrix back to the real world would cause serious damage to their brains.
Quote from: MeshYou say: "They can't exit their consciousness from the program unless they find another exit/entry point." But the question is Why? and Does that fact make any sense at all?
Like I said, they are like a portals. You have to go in and out through those specific hardlines. You compared it to "Time Bandits" (a film set more in fantasy) why can you accept it in that film, but not "The Matrix" (a film that has more concrete rules)?
Quote from: MacGuffinQuote from: Meshif he wants to, Morpheus can make words appear on Neo's computer screen.
You think there are no hackers in that world? Neo is one himself.
Yeah, so while he's messing around in the Matrix he has time to hack in to people's computers (recall that he's Agent Smith's #1 Most Wanted Man)? I guess he must find the time somehow.....
Quote from: Raikus
Okay, this will be the last time I explain this, because frankly you passed annoying twenty posts back.
Relax, bro. Aren't we supposed to be discussing movies here? I'm just tough on sci-fi, is all.
Quote from: Raikus
It's obvious that the Matrix is designed to keep people's consciousnesses trapped in a program that they believe is real life to use their energy to power the robots. So of course the operator can't just hang up their cell phone, terminate connection and their consciousness will return to their body, otherwise every time another person in the Matrix went to sleep or got knocked out they would wake up in a pod.
But, dude, Morpheus's rebels specifically AREN'T fooled by the Matrix anymore. They're no longer trapped, no longer slaves. They don't believe it's real life, so why would a sudden interruption in it phase them?
Quote from: Raikus
Continuing to reiterate the same questions long after they've been answered is annoying.
If I thought the questions had been answered to my satisfaction, I'd quit examining you guys. You don't want to play, you don't have to.
Quote from: RaikusIf you want a beef with the Matrix, you should really concentrate on the "prophecy" aspects of it. That is, if the Oracle is all-knowing that trustworthy, why did she say Neo wasn't the One?
Now that's more like it. Is she a double agent? Is she affected by a glitch in the Matrix? Excellent question to ask. Let's go to town on it.
Quote from: MacGuffinQuote from: Meshif he wants to, Morpheus can make words appear on Neo's computer screen.
You think there are no hackers in that world? Neo is one himself.
Nerd-Alert!
Quote from: MeshYeah, so while he's messing around in the Matrix he has time to hack in to people's computers (recall that he's Agent Smith's #1 Most Wanted Man)? I guess he must find the time somehow.....
Now I getting frustrated with you. You need to watch it again and pay attention.
He's not messing around in the Matrix. Morpheus had just found Neo at that time. Remember, he was looking for the person he believed to be The One. In the opening, Trinity is at a computer trying to find Neo. The Agents find this out because after the truck crashes into the phone booth, they say "The informant is real." "The name is Neo." They get to Neo, they get to Morpheus, hence planting the "bug" on him.
Quote from: MacGuffin
Like I said, they are like a portals. You have to go in and out through those specific hardlines. You compared it to "Time Bandits" (a film set more in fantasy) why can you accept it in that film, but not "The Matrix" (a film that has more concrete rules)?
In Time Bandits, the portals are treated as holes in the fabric of God's Creation; they transport you from one time/place to another. That one of those times/places is The Time of Legends (a fantasy setting) is basically irrelevant. God's Creation can have a Time of Legends if He wants it to.
Apples to Oranges, and I wasn't holding one up as more valid than the other.
As far as The Matrix's "concrete rules"—isn't that what were arguing here?
I haven't seen it in a long time... do they answer this?: "If the majority of human bodies are hooked up to the matrix all thier lives, how do they reproduce? What happens when they're out of humans? Are they artificially inseminated? Do the robots deliver the babies? Does being pregnant affect your experience inside the Matrix?"
Quote from: MeshAs far as The Matrix's "concrete rules"—isn't that what were arguing here?
You're the one "arguing". So if God wants to put a portal there, so it be done and you accept that. But if a certain line in the Matrix is specified as a way in and out, you have a problem with that. I don't get what you don't get.
Quote from: MacGuffin
Now I getting frustrated with you. You need to watch it again and pay attention.
He's not messing around in the Matrix. Morpheus had just found Neo at that time. Remember, he was looking for the person he believed to be The One. In the opening, Trinity is at a computer trying to find Neo. The Agents find this out because after the truck crashes into the phone booth, they say "The informant is real." "The name is Neo." They get to Neo, they get to Morpheus, hence planting the "bug" on him.
Like I said, I've seen it only twice (and the first time, I was drunk). Please feel free to correct me with a vengeance when I get something wrong.
Quote from: RegularKarateI haven't seen it in a long time... do they answer this?: "If the majority of human bodies are hooked up to the matrix all thier lives, how do they reproduce? What happens when they're out of humans? Are they artificially inseminated? Do the robots deliver the babies? Does being pregnant affect your experience inside the Matrix?"
"There are fields, endless fields, where humans are no longer born. They are grown."
They liquify the dead to be feed intravenously to the living.
Quote from: RegularKarateI haven't seen it in a long time... do they answer this?: "If the majority of human bodies are hooked up to the matrix all thier lives, how do they reproduce? What happens when they're out of humans? Are they artificially inseminated? Do the robots deliver the babies? Does being pregnant affect your experience inside the Matrix?"
I think the AI rulers of Earth "farm" humans, the way we farm corn. We help along its reproductive cycle, just as they'd facilitate the creation of more humans (and, you'd assume, humans that produce the most heat).
On pregnancy: I took that pink goop Neo was living in to be a sort of artificial amniotic fluid. Human pregnancy as we know it might therefore be a thing of the past in The Matrix's "real world."
Quote from: RaikusIf you want a beef with the Matrix, you should really concentrate on the "prophecy" aspects of it. That is, if the Oracle is all-knowing that trustworthy, why did she say Neo wasn't the One?
She knows at that point that Neo himself doesn't believe it (hell, he can barely understand the concept of "There is no the spoon" in the waiting area at that time), but she knows nonetheless. She wants him to believe and prove it to himself. Not to have someone say to him, "You are The One." And then he goes, "Whoa." She tells him, "Being The One is just like being in love. No one can tell you youire in love, you just know it."
Quote from: MacGuffin
You're the one "arguing". So if God wants to put a portal there, so it be done and you accept that. But if a certain line in the Matrix is specified as a way in and out, you have a problem with that. I don't get what you don't get.
Arguing, discussing, mouthing off, whatever.
"...a certain line in the Matrix is specified as a way in and out..." and that fact may not make much sense within the internal logic of the film world. That's one of our topics here. You take it for granted; I don't, necessarily.
Quote from: MacGuffin
She knows at that point that Neo himself doesn't believe it (hell, he can barely understand the concept of "There is no the spoon" in the waiting area at that time), but she knows nonetheless. She wants him to believe and prove it to himself. Not to have someone say to him, "You are The One." And then he goes, "Whoa."
That's a good theory. She's wise enough to know that the best way to get him to accept that he's The One is to tell him he's not. If he is The One, he's certain to find that out for himself anyway.
They have a good write up about the Matrix (which specifically deals with the question I raised) in this month's Creative Screenwriting (Hugh Jackman cover). It also tells of the evolution the Matrix script took. Very interesting stuff. Look it up if you're interested in Matrix lore.
I think that this is just a bad topic to tread in. It's a fantasy movie, so if someone can bend a story and not explain everything, they can very well bend something else and make up an explanation. You just run around in circles. It also tends to become something of a bitter conversation on both sides.
With that said, anyone have any thoughts on why this movie has such a Christian following?
Quote from: i/oI think that this is just a bad topic to tread in. It's a fantasy movie, so if someone can bend a story and not explain everything, they can very well bend something else and make up an explanation. You just run around in circles. It also tends to become something of a bitter conversation on both sides.
I'm not bitter, and I've had fun with this thread thusfar. I don't understand your reluctance to talk about fantasy films, in general. Of course you can't resolve every little issue—that's what makes film such a fascinating topic. Everyone sees things a little differently.
Quote from: i/oWith that said, anyone have any thoughts on why this movie has such a Christian following?
It's really, really New Testament.
1. Neo is the Chosen One, the Savior, the Messiah, sent by fate to lead enslaved humanity out of bondage.
2. Neo is called The One (his name's even an anagram of it).
3. Trinity is named after, uh, the Holy Trinity. The Father, the Son, and The Holy Spirit.
4. Now this is Old Testament, but: Nebuchadnezzar (the name of Morpheus's hovercraft) is the name of the man in the OT who lived to be the oldest, some 900 years, if memory serves.
5. Rebirth is a major theme in The Matrix, as it is in Christian theology.
There's gotta be a lot more, too. Anyone?
Quote from: MeshQuote from: MacGuffin
She knows at that point that Neo himself doesn't believe it (hell, he can barely understand the concept of "There is no the spoon" in the waiting area at that time), but she knows nonetheless. She wants him to believe and prove it to himself. Not to have someone say to him, "You are The One." And then he goes, "Whoa."
That's a good theory. She's wise enough to know that the best way to get him to accept that he's The One is to tell him he's not. If he is The One, he's certain to find that out for himself anyway.
It's no theory, it's how it works. As Morpheus says, "She told you exactly what you needed to hear" or something to that effect anyway
Ok. How bout another hole that can be argued about. When Cypher is negotiating with agent smith about being plugged back into the matrix, he has to be in the Matrix right? And if he is in the Matrix, The "operator" or Tank has to be monitoring him to let him in and out of the Matrix and check his vitals. If Tank is watching the whole conversation on his monitors, he should know about Cypher's plan and in turn stop it. Right? I mean SOMEONE had to have seen Cypher talk to Agent Smith. You can't plug into the Matrix without someone helping you...I think.
GALVATRON solves the matrix.
(mega spoilers ahead)
http://www.ngemu.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=38092
ive only seen it once, and havent yet seen reloaded. from what i remember, it contradicts the shit out of itself for the sake of a cool action sequence.
Well if you've only seen the first part once then you obviously understand it completely
Quote from: MeshI rewatched it last week (and I've now seen it a total of two times). I was telling a friend how much I admired it as hyper-creative sci/fi-adventure. But he found it to be "full of holes," and pointed out the question as to why the rebel characters had to make it to certain points in the Matrix (phones, usually) in order to "beam back" into their real selves onboard the Nebuchadnezzar (in similar fashion, btw, to the way the thieves in Time Bandits get around in time). Was that a logical flaw for you?
Are there other potentially huge logisitical problems with The Matrix? What are they?
I want it to be a good, sensible alternate world...but I feel like it must be illogical in certain ways....help?
Yeah. I watched "Back to the Future" the other night as well. I don't get the whole "time travel" part of the movie. Logically, it doesn't seem like it could work.
:roll:
Quote from: halo_on
Yeah. I watched "Back to the Future" the other night as well. I don't get the whole "time travel" part of the movie. Logically, it doesn't seem like it could work.
:roll:
Don't be an ass. Questioning the entire concept of "time travel" in Back to the Future would be like questioning the existence of the matrix in The Matrix. That's not what I was doing at all. I was picking out a detail that didn't seem to jive with the good logical sense made by the rest of the film's details.....
Apples, meet oranges.
8)
go banana.
(https://xixax.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.google.com.au%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtbn%3Ay81Pt-RJcmQC%3Awww.thestudentzone.com%2Farticles%2Fimages%2Fbanana.jpg&hash=20103f3a69e4e2fc38b8b634d51f17ed83c5946a)
P's always on top of things with the most appropriate Wiggum quotes.
Quote from: MeshQuote from: halo_on
Yeah. I watched "Back to the Future" the other night as well. I don't get the whole "time travel" part of the movie. Logically, it doesn't seem like it could work.
:roll:
Don't be an ass. Questioning the entire concept of "time travel" in Back to the Future would be like questioning the existence of the matrix in The Matrix. That's not what I was doing at all. I was picking out a detail that didn't seem to jive with the good logical sense made by the rest of the film's details.....
Apples, meet oranges.
8)
Ok, now I'm good and confused. So, let me paraphrase for you.
You don't like how people "wake up" from the Matrix by using phones? Your complaint is that "how" people get back to the real world isn't consistant with what exactly? I'm not getting how "logic" has anything to do with the general pace or flow of a film.
The Wachowski Brothers had to come up with a way for people to make it back from The Matrix. The idea of people finding exits is a real good way to move the plot along and heighten suspense.
You might also remember, that when Neo was first "awakened", they dialed into the Matrix. Remember that? They were trying to find his signal, or his "pod". There is a shot of a phone hooked into a computer I'm pretty sure. I think it was an old style rotary phone. So, getting people out of the Matrix by using phones makes sense to me. I donno. I never once thought it "didn't fit".
Gotta love allegory though. Thats the best part about The Matrix. Allegory.
Fully software, fully human.
Fully human, fully messiah.
Quote from: halo_on
You don't like how people "wake up" from the Matrix by using phones? Your complaint is that "how" people get back to the real world isn't consistant with what exactly? I'm not getting how "logic" has anything to do with the general pace or flow of a film.
Sigh. The Matrix isn't a place, it's a digital fabrication. Therefore locations, such as phone terminals, don't exist in it, they're just programs that fool peole into thinking they're phones. So, that's A. right there: I find it silly that people hallucinating the Matrix need to get to non-existent "places" within it so get out. This concept seems beyond most people who've read me type and re-type it. Whatever. I've moved on to how dumb Episode II is.
Now: B. Why would an intelligent computer program a system to have exit portals for its slaves located at various spots that those same slaves use on a daily basis? Why would they allow them in and out anyway? You don't make a prison with front gates that open wide everytime someone flushes a toilet.
And, C. "I'm not getting how 'logic' has anything to do with the general pace or flow of a film." If something's illogical in a film that had been up to that point pretty logical, it makes me pause and think about its illogical nature rather than just sit back and enjoy. For me, the two are often inextricable, depending on what kind of movie we're dealing with. In 8 1/2, OK, no problem, it's illogical and dream-like. But for The Matrix, no: the film sells itself as a study in what AI will eventually do to humanity, the philosophy of that situation, and how to overcome and deal with both. Thus, a movie that tries its hand at philosophy while at once committing errors of logic, to me, has a real problem. And that's that.
Quote from: halo_onThe Wachowski Brothers had to come up with a way for people to make it back from The Matrix. The idea of people finding exits is a real good way to move the plot along and heighten suspense.
Now, taking into account what I did say above, remember that I did not make this thread to quibble about the plot or suspense of The Matrix, both of which I think are pretty much fine. It's an enjoyable film, in general. But, as the thread title asks, "Does it make sense?"
Quote from: halo_onYou might also remember, that when Neo was first "awakened", they dialed into the Matrix. Remember that? They were trying to find his signal, or his "pod". There is a shot of a phone hooked into a computer I'm pretty sure. I think it was an old style rotary phone. So, getting people out of the Matrix by using phones makes sense to me. I donno. I never once thought it "didn't fit".
I did.
Quote from: halo_onGotta love allegory though. Thats the best part about The Matrix. Allegory.
How does this relate?
Quote from: halo_onFully software, fully human.
Fully human, fully messiah.
What?
Can't we lock this thread already? I think it's safe to say no one's ever going to explain Matrix in a way to shut Mesh up.
what I think is that if NEO is the one he doesnt need to fight the agents and do all that crap... he would directly be able to blow everything up...
I dont remember the phrase that Morpheous says, but it was that THE ONE would be able to do whatever he wanted inside the matrix
The fact that he cant means that maybe the one theory is BS
Quote from: andykwhat I think is that if NEO is the one he doesnt need to fight the agents and do all that crap... he would directly be able to blow everything up...
I dont remember the phrase that Morpheous says, but it was that THE ONE would be able to do whatever he wanted inside the matrix
The fact that he cant means that maybe the one theory is BS
You did, y'know,
see the second movie, right?
I just read all the way through this and I also cannot see what you don't get!
but here is my attempt to help!
Quote from: MeshSigh. The Matrix isn't a place, it's a digital fabrication.
This is the first problem, When the matrix people are wandering round the "real world" (Zion) the matrix is not real.
BUT as soon as you plug your head into the matrix, your reality becomes the matrix.
Neo: I thought it wasn't real.
Morpheus: Your mind makes it real.
Neo: If you're killed in the Matrix, you die here?
Morpheus: Your body cannot live without the mind.
No one in the matrix is "hallucinating" its there reality until they find a hard line and can be unplugged
It takes Neo the whole film to adjust to this, remember, "there is no spoon" he couldn't understand the kid didn't bend a spoon, he just altered a program that is a spoon!
(I feel like I’m repeating what 10 other people have said!)
Here is an idea how did the agents get in the matrix? They must have been installed, surely they didn't start in the matrix, they didn’t need them in the beginning.
In the first fight of reloaded.
Neo: "Humm upgrades"
How did the agents get up graded? The agent program must have been reinstalled or at least a patch.
How were they installed? down hardlines? Well there is no evidence to support this but its a possibility. But if the robots can edit/alter the program they need to access it in some way, the hackers then exploit this to get themselves in.
Raikus provides the best slimily
Quote from: RaikusWhy is this concept so hard to get?
The crew of the Nebuchadnezzar get into the virtual reality program the same way you hack into a system. They find a back door (or the hardline) and insert themselves into the program. It just so happens that the programs recognizes these entry points as telephones. Not all telephones are entry points to the Matrix program, but all entry points are telephones. They can't exit their consciousness from the program unless they find another exit/entry point. The cell phones are just communication devices between the Operator (crew still on the ship) and those who's consciousness have been inserted into the Matrix (think Star Trek communicators). The number they can call on the cell phones in the Matrix represents a frequency that exists in the real world--hence they are merely using them as radios to the contact on the ship.
The reason that they can't exists "anywhere" while in the Matrix is because it exists with rules based on the real world. The program is set up so you can't just access another piece except by the hardline insertion. Obviously Neo breaks this principle as much as possible in Revolutions when he flies to get to Morpheus and Trinity. But that's all he can do. He can't beam directly to another place because, even though he realizes it's a program, he can't break these rules.
All rules can be bent to a degree but none of them can be completely broken (well the flying at the end is a bit suspect, but hey he is bending the rules of gravity)
Quote from: Mesh
I find it silly that people hallucinating the Matrix need to get to non-existent "places" within it so get out
once your inside it all exists the phone is real to the users mind. The hardline is just a back door in and out of the software.
Right I haven’t got time now to move on to B & C now.
My best advice is to watch both films again and think about what people here have said.
Quote from: penfold0101(I feel like I'm repeating what 10 other people have said!)
u are man, and once again it has been explained adequately. the problem is ppl don't pay attention, it's almost like they don't WANT the films to make sense, even when it's explained in different ways. the proper term for this is Cognitive Dissonance. i bet they suck at math.
Quote from: PQuote from: penfold0101(I feel like I'm repeating what 10 other people have said!)
u are man, and once again it has been explained adequately. the problem is ppl don't pay attention, it's almost like they don't WANT the films to make sense, even when it's explained in different ways. the proper term for this is Cognitive Dissonance. i bet they suck at math.
Dude, c'mon. Play fair. I've read and re-read this thread, trying to find an explanation for this issue that satisfies me....and none of them quite do. Why do you find it necessary to accuse me of not listening? We're just not on the same page yet.....calm down, no need for personal attacks.
Now:
Hacking Neo and Trinity and Morpheus and whoever else into The Matrix is a lot like, say, playing an online game in our real world, isn't it? You find a way to connect to the game engine and to the rest of the players, you have your character move around, interact with other players and things, etc., etc. For a while, your consciousness is inside the game, but, like Morpheus and Trinity and Neo, you know the game is not real, it's a simulation.
Now let's say someone starts mouthing off to you and you decide you want out of the game. No don't then have to find your way over to the nearest simulated carrier pigeon in order to quit....You just type "quit" or you turn off the machine that put you into the game in the first place.
That there is why hacking back out of The Matrix is illogical to me. I understand why it had to be written into the script; if The Matrix in the movie were that easy to get into and out of, it wouldn't have been half as much fun or exciting. But that doesn't mean it makes sense.....I still don't think it does. That's why I made this thread and that's why I'm still posting in it. If that pisses someone off enough to close, lock, or delete this thing, then so be it. I'll lose no sleep. We're just talking about movies, ain't we?
Quote from: MeshIf that pisses someone off enough to close, lock, or delete this thing, then so be it. I'll lose no sleep. We're just talking about movies, ain't we?
now who needs to calm down.
i see what ur saying tho, i never thought it made sense in any real technical sense plus the phone thing is a minor point in the grand scheme of what the film is doing, sumone else can finish explaining that stuff tho.. personally i don't care if ppl aren't feeling it. at least we agree on GT.
Quote from: MeshDude, c'mon. Play fair. I've read and re-read this thread, trying to find an explanation for this issue that satisfies me....and none of them quite do. Why do you find it necessary to accuse me of not listening? We're just not on the same page yet.....calm down, no need for personal attacks.
You're like a Matrix succubus, aren't you?
Quote from: Mesh
Hacking Neo and Trinity and Morpheus and whoever else into The Matrix is a lot like, say, playing an online game in our real world, isn't it? You find a way to connect to the game engine and to the rest of the players, you have your character move around, interact with other players and things, etc., etc. For a while, your consciousness is inside the game, but, like Morpheus and Trinity and Neo, you know the game is not real, it's a simulation.
Now let's say someone starts mouthing off to you and you decide you want out of the game. No don't then have to find your way over to the nearest simulated carrier pigeon in order to quit....You just type "quit" or you turn off the machine that put you into the game in the first place.
That there is why hacking back out of The Matrix is illogical to me. I understand why it had to be written into the script; if The Matrix in the movie were that easy to get into and out of, it wouldn't have been half as much fun or exciting. But that doesn't mean it makes sense.....I still don't think it does. That's why I made this thread and that's why I'm still posting in it. If that pisses someone off enough to close, lock, or delete this thing, then so be it. I'll lose no sleep. We're just talking about movies, ain't we?
I'll try this once more and then really give up. Think of the Matrix as a mental beartrap. The purpose of the Matrix is to hold people's consciousness. It's a trap (not to get too Ackbar on you). Even if I step in a beartrap, I can't get out unless I know how to release the spring. Just because I know there's a beartrap on my leg, doesn't mean I can say "Merci" and I'm suddenly free. The same thing applies to the Matrix. 99.9% of the people don't know they're in the trap, but those .01% that do still can't get out of it unless they're provided a way.
And with that, I'm spent. If you have further comments/complaints please refer to your local B&N Re:
Matrix for Dummies.
Jesus. I think further discussion should be reserved until Revolutions is out. At this point, I don't think anybody knows the full extent of the matrix or Neo's powers, or the prophecy, ad naseum...
Personally, I come for the ass-kicking, and stay for the ass-kicking. If it all makes sense in the end, yay for them.