Game of Thrones (spoilers)

Started by diggler, June 06, 2011, 02:39:04 PM

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.


Like you guys I think Cersei is done, it's just a matter of when that will happen, but, wouldn't be great if she somehow escaped and hide somewhere else? or even if she loses and dies she somehow takes a big chunk of Dany's army? I know the former it's not likely to happen but as a twist maybe it could work, it's a big maybe.

I don't think the Cersei vs Jaime will happen, not so long ago Jaime told Brienne how much he loved Cersei and she just confessed to the Septa the same thing, they may have a fight or two but I don't think Jaime will abandon her or turn against her.

Jeremy Blackman

Quote from: Fernando on June 28, 2016, 08:34:44 PMAs for Tyrion, remember they go together to Castle Black, Tyrion says his great phrase "All dwarfs are bastards at their fathers eye" first time they meet and on their trip they bond, even at Castle Black he defends Jon from his brothers when he beat them while training.

Wow, I completely forgot about that. I guess it's been a while. Looks like Tyrion being a decent guy is going to pay off in the end.

Quote from: Fernando on June 28, 2016, 11:24:45 PM
Like you guys I think Cersei is done, it's just a matter of when that will happen, but, wouldn't be great if she somehow escaped and hide somewhere else? or even if she loses and dies she somehow takes a big chunk of Dany's army? I know the former it's not likely to happen but as a twist maybe it could work, it's a big maybe.

I don't think the Cersei vs Jaime will happen, not so long ago Jaime told Brienne how much he loved Cersei and she just confessed to the Septa the same thing, they may have a fight or two but I don't think Jaime will abandon her or turn against her.

It would be a fun twist if Cersei escapes. But I think at this point, she is one to make a last stand, even if she takes the entire Lannister army with her. On the other hand, the show will be very reluctant to kill anyone from the principal cast (Dany, Tyrion, Jon, Jaime, Cersei) too soon.

I have no idea what Jaime will do about Cersei right now. In a way, he kind of missed his chance to stop her, because the damage has already been done. That was a super disillusioned look he gave her, though. He's not on board.

Quote from: Lottery on June 28, 2016, 10:39:20 PM
2 seasons left. I think that the joined forces of Daenerys and Jon is likely if a bit predictable. I'm wondering if they're gonna be at odds until some significant moment where the WWs appear and mess things up real bad and take a couple of important characters with them.
I think there needs to be another significant force of evil- Cersei doesn't count because it seems that Daenerys will be able to wipe her out with ease, also literally no one likes Cersei anymore except Qyburn and Zombie Clegane. Honestly, it wouldn't make sense for her to survive very long, she only has enemies now. Jamie is the biggest threat because he's the closest to her and was having 'Nam flashbacks to the Mad King in their last scene.

Euron maybe as the next big threat? He's been a bit of a joke so far but apparently in the books, he's shaping up to be a horrifically evil and powerful character. This season was a housekeeping season for the most part and they've tied up a lot of loose ends.

It would be pretty crazy if the WWs weren't the final bad guys and Euron or Mad Queen Daenerys end up as the final villains (kind of Breaking Badish that way).

This is also my conundrum. On the surface, I don't see how there is enough plot left for 13+ episodes. But as you say, we do have some potentially major human villains. I think we'll get at least 2-3 more episodes out of Cersei. In terms of other villains, I would absolutely rule out Daenerys, and add Littlefinger. If he's not getting what he wants, he'll go into chaos mode again, which is the only way to change the game. So Cersei, Euron, and Littlefinger.

Maybe Daenerys easily conquers King's Landing, but conquering the whole of Westeros proves more complex. Winning the throne is just the beginning. The previous aspiring rulers like Stannis or Renly had no plans to re-unite the seven kingdoms, as far as I know. Daenerys's plans are a lot more ambitious. Maybe breaking the wheel is a seriously difficult process. Her story has been about slow and hard-won victories, so that probably continues. Some people are guessing that she tries to bring democracy to Westeros. She literally just did that with Mereen as part of her exit plan, and it was barely commented upon.

When she arrives in Westeros, there are no slaves to free, so what is the equivalent leap in progress? How about a parliamentary monarchy of some kind? (This podcast has been predicting that for a while.)

We might also have enough time to go fully down the rabbit hole with Bran. *crosses fingers*

Side note, won't it be weird when we're not cutting between locations as much because 3/4 of the characters are in the same place?

Quote from: Fernando on June 28, 2016, 08:34:44 PMAgree, that sounds like the logical move to make, I just wonder how they will get to that point, because by that time she has to be Queen, and while Dany does that, what will be happening at Winterfell?

Not sure. Maybe Daenerys would quickly send someone to make contact with Winterfell, or send a raven straight away and summon them.

But yes. The timing of everything is a big open question for me right now.

Okay, this is kind of dumb, but I'm going to do it anyway. We've been wondering about the travel time between Essos and Westeros. So I put a few things together. Let's say the ships are traveling at a constant 17 knots (roughly going by
from r/sailing
). That's 19.56 miles per hour. The distance from the Wall to Dorne is said to be 3,000 miles. Let's inflate that to 3,700 miles for it not being a straight path at sea.

Looking at this map, I'll guess that Mereen to Dorne is about the same distance — a one-way trip would take less than 8 days. If Daenerys is going straight for the throne, Mereen to King's Landing (5,000 miles at the most?) would take less than 11 days.

Jeremy Blackman

Jeremy Blackman

Aiden Gillen talked about that look exchanged between Littlefinger and Sansa after Jon was declared King of the North. While they apparently kept the meaning ambiguous on set (and probably in the script), these are his thoughts:

There's a certain amount of, "I told you so. Is this what you want? Can you trust him?" And all of that has been said anyway, in the previous scene. But there's also a degree of excitement, because the lords are pledging their allegiance to Jon Snow, and we didn't necessarily know it would go that way. Speaking for Littlefinger, it was one of those moments where you go, "Fuck! Maybe this is a bigger thing than I thought it would be. How are we going to deal with this?" Given that he enjoys chaos and uncertainty and the thrill of all of that, it was a big moment for him.


I also can't see right now that they have much story for 13 episodes, mainly for Winterfell.

Let's see what could happen:

A conflict between LF is a given; I used to think Jon would go to Castle Black but now that he is KoN don't know how his brothers would receive them, although, he could get a raven that Bran arrived there so he makes the trip to pick him up and Ghost too while He's at it, still, right now I don't think he has much enemies in the north so that trip should be safe and easy.
Speaking of Bran, since his uncle said he can't cross the wall because He's death, wouldn't the white walkers have the same problem? Or they can because he touched Bran and the spell will be broken? Also, death people have crossed, remember that bold zombie Jon killed in the old Bear's room back in season 1? So we have to assume WW will cross the wall.

A clash at sea with Euron will definitely happen, It's just a matter of the timing, before she lands in Dorne or after she sails, and in that battle someone should fall from Danny's camp, not Tyrion but maybe one of the Greyjoys or one of his dragons???

She would probably meet either Brienne (not good for her) or Thoros and company, but she can't join them on their trip to the north since Jon would hang her, so I hope she joins Danny's camp at some point, I just hope we see more of her, I love that character.

Oh well, I hate the first Throne-less Sunday...

Jeremy Blackman

Good stuff. I'm on the same page. They need to think of ways to complicate inevitable things. Although (vague future spoilers?), this EW interview with D&D is very insightful:

Quote"Once she gets on those ships and crosses West, that's when the clock on the end game starts ticking," Weiss says. "The question has been: When is she going to get back across the Narrow Sea? When is she going to take back her homeland? It's been a long time for her, and it's been something that's such an imperative for people watching. You know she's not going to go there for a beach vacation."

Quips Benioff: "Beach vacations are way better in Essos."

"She summers in Essos," concedes Weiss. "But when she gets back to Westeros, it's on. Her return is the first domino."

In terms of big open questions, Euron was my first, but this is definitely #2:

I've heard a fair amount of speculation that Bran will bring the wall down by going through it. The wall contains protective magic (like the tree), and Bran is marked, which means his crossing the wall may allow the Night King to get through or even destroy the wall.

I fear that's what's going to happen. Could they pull it off without making us hate Bran for his incompetence?

So when they approached the wall in this episode, and Benjen was all like "go ahead, don't want to make you late, good luck," I got very suspicious. When Benjen says goodbye, he says "I wish you both good fortune" (weirdly emotionless). At this point, the camera lingers on his expression for several seconds — he literally shifts his eyes back and forth a bit, settling on a creepy subtle smirk (cropped screenshot below), as if to say "lol you guys have no idea what hell you're about to unleash."

Is it possible that Benjen is an agent for the white walkers?


So my brother-in-law and I were consoling each other at 4th July about the first GOT-less Sunday and our mother-in-law overheard us saying something along the lines of a "10 month wait" and immediately got excited that one of her daughters was pregnant. My mother-in-law, ladies and gents.
He held on. The dolphin and all the rest of its pod turned and swam out to sea, and still he held on. This is it, he thought. Then he remembered that they were air-breathers too. It was going to be all right.

Jeremy Blackman

It's going to be rough. I think I might do a rewatch of the whole series. Partially because this podcast is doing one. I'll probably read the books once the series is over.


You haven't read the books? I thought you did...anyway, if you read book reviews you'll see as I did that for some A feast for crows is the lesser book of all, without spoiling anything, those guys are wrong, the chapters of Cersei alone are worth the whole book.

ok, just a vague spoiler about the theme of the first chapters of Cersei in AFFC: the aftermath of Tywin's murder is a thing of beauty that didn't make it to the show.

You guys probably have seen the beautiful death posters that Robert M. Ball does for every episode, here's the latest, if you haven't check the link below.

Jeremy Blackman

Those posters are amazing!

I did read the first few chapters of the first book, but I decided to experience the show first.

In other news, I got my email read on the podcast!

audio clip

It's based on our conversation here. I'm a little disappointed, though. He cut out a big chunk and jumbled some words. (I guess it was long. And I don't always write in a radio-friendly style.) Their reaction was basically, "hmm yeah that seems right." I was hoping they'd go on a speculative tangent. I should include a clear question next time.


The issue with A Feast For Crows is the book as a whole. Because, yes, it contains amazing chapters. I forgot a lot of what happens in Book 4 and 5 and I'll probably read them again this year. It's two different stories, now, the books and the show. I prefer the G.R.R Martin telenovella, but the show had to be the way it is—more focused.

Jeremy Blackman

Game of Thrones leads the Emmy nominations.

I have no clue how Sophie Turner didn't make the cut, though. She put in a stronger performance than anyone who was actually nominated. With the possible exception of Lena Headey. Alright, Lena Headey was better.

Not sure Dinklage or Emilia need to be getting nominations for this season. Swap in Natalie Dormer, Liam Cunningham, and Ian McShane.

Best Drama
Peter Dinklage (Sup Actor)
Kit Harington (Sup Actor)
Emilia Clarke (Sup Actor)
Lena Headey (Sup Actor)
Maisie Williams (Sup Actor)
Max von Sydow (Guest Actor)
Writing - David Benioff and D.B. Weiss for "Battle of the Bastards"
Directing - Miguel Sapochnik for "Battle of the Bastards"
Directing - Jack Bender for "The Door"
Outstanding Production Design
Outstanding Casting For A Drama Series
Outstanding Cinematography For A Single-Camera Series
Outstanding Costumes For A Period/Fantasy Series, Limited Series Or Movie
Outstanding Single-Camera Picture Editing For A Drama Series
Outstanding Hairstyling
Outstanding Interactive Program ("Game Of Thrones Main Titles 360 Experience")
Outstanding Makeup
Outstanding Sound Editing
Outstanding Sound Mixing
Outstanding Prosthetic Makeup
Outstanding Special Visual Effects
Outstanding Stunt Coordination

Jeremy Blackman

Rewatching Season 1. Saw Episode 2 tonight.

At the time, so much was made of Sansa "lying" when asked to describe the scuffle with Joffrey. What she actually did was refuse to testify. "I don't remember, it all happened so fast" — barely qualifies as a lie because no one believes her, and she knows it. She refuses to corroborate Arya's story, but she also refuses to corroborate Joffrey's story. She actually sort of removes legitimacy from the proceeding, which might have been my move also, to be honest. This is not 100% honorable behavior, but she was put on the spot (recently awakened, even). Intensely confused about where her allegiances actually are, and what she should do next.

This strikes me as a failing of Ned Stark. He taught his sons how to be honorable, but (correct me if I'm wrong) didn't think to give his daughters the same level of instruction. Sansa is suddenly in this position of power, but she has clearly not been prepared for it. Furthermore, Ned Stark has put himself and his family in this position where they are forced to make moral compromises. Which in the next scene leads him to slay a dire wolf, the very symbol of his house. Quite on the nose, actually. More than any significant commentary on Sansa, this sequence of events feels strongly symbolic of Ned straying from the North and from his Stark identity.

Anyway... The show is more poetic and more fully engaging in these early episodes than I remember. It's a delight.

Just two complaints, though. Viserys Targaryen is cartoonishly evil, at the same time that Joffrey's evil is unfolding with great subtlety. A bit of a weakness.

Secondly, this problem is actually worse than I remember:

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on May 18, 2015, 01:09:10 AMIn the books, the consummation of Daenerys's marriage (in her POV chapter) was written as a romantic scene, consensual, and even briefly erotic (and to be clear, erotic for her, since it is literally from her point of view), adorned with flowery language, and set near a peaceful forest stream if I remember correctly. (And I think I do remember, because of how awkward it was to hear the stilted British audiobook narrator say "her wetness.") In the TV show, they decided Daenerys should be raped instead, on a dark wind-swept cliff. They decided that instead of starting the love story before the marriage, they should try to have it after she's raped, when she learns to accept things and transform her sexual servitude into pseudo-consent. (Turn that rape upside-down, girl!) I suppose it was supposed to develop her character, except this departure only had ill effects on the storytelling. It ended up scrambling this character (Daenerys) into a sufferer of stockholm syndrome, a woman who against all odds fell in love with her rapist (a truly inspiring tale for wives in arranged marriages, one could argue). Anytime thereafter when she said "my sun and stars," fondly recalling her true love Khal Drogo, we could only be quietly baffled by the disconnect.

The way it plays out in the show reeks of a male sex fantasy superimposed on this otherwise very carefully-observed narrative. They didn't have a female writer until Season 2, and unfortunately that is very obvious.

Jeremy Blackman

Definitely have to revise my argument about the Daenerys & Khal Drogo romance. I hadn't read far enough to realize that it's equally problematic in the book. GRRM actually tries to have it both ways, and the romantic scene that I quoted turns out to be incongruous. So basically, this is still a major plot problem, but it's not really a show invention.


I've only read the first handful of chapters but I assumed the case here was something like she was a scared, young, and overly obedient girl 'dutifully' adapting to a barbaric culture? I mean it's unpleasant but probably makes sense in the context of that world/era/etc.