there has been blood (and now QT's review of CMBB)

[Pozer]

Also, what did Daniel do to the father to get him to stop beating her?

he intimidated him to protect mary.  and that was certainly a redeeming quality.

and to continue to overpower him of course.  I got your land, your oil and your mafuckin daughter.  got em all right here

Also, has it been established yet that it's completely obvious that they're twins? I went into knowing there was controversy with the other actor that dropped out, but it's completely obvious they're twins.

it was to me as well but many here as well as ppl i know hav disagreed.

[Stefen]

Do you think Daniel could have been molesting Mary and that would explain his protectiveness over her? He never did a good thing the whole movie except for get Mary's father to stop beating her. It's not out of the question to assume there were other motives at work there.

You could argue he cared for H.W. but I don't think he ever did. I think he thought of H.W. as an accessory. Someone to help him seal the deal when he was trying to buy land. And it worked effectively. Maybe the Daniel/Mary relationship had something to do with H.W's distance from Daniel. Maybe he knew. Maybe Mary told him at a young age.

[diggler]

what about the implications that daniel is impotent? i didn't get a sense that he was being sexual at all. that scene with mary seemed to strictly be a power play. if he had not been in plain view (heh) of the father during that scene, i could believe that there was a sexual nature to it. however, i don't think daniel even understands that what he was doing was sexual at all.

[Stefen]

What power did Daniel need to hold over the Sundays at that point? He had the well and all the land.

I just find it hard to believe that someone as heartless as Daniel who doesn't even care about his own bastard son would care about a father beating his daughter enough to do something about it where he has nothing to gain unless it's to gain the daughters trust. I just think there might have been something there but maybe I'm looking for something that isn't.

[I Love a Magician]

i think he cared about hw (until he lost his hearing) and hw was friends with mary so daniel was doing it for hw. remember when hw told daniel that mary's dad beats her if she doesn't pray.

[ElPandaRoyal]

But, see, I think he cared about his son at that point, while he wasn't already totally corrupted by the oil. That only happened, in my opinion, in that great fire/H.W. accident scene, which - the way I see it at least - marks the most decisive step towards hell and the moment Daniel started losing the rest of his humanity. Maybe I say that because Paul mentions "The Treasure of the Sierra Madre" a lot as inspiration, and that movie is also about that kind of corruption caused by greed. And greed becomes a illness, making you not care about anyone (not even yourself) except that fortune and it comes gradually until it consumes you to the bone.

That said, the scene was kind of unconfortable, at first I saw it as a fucked up sexual scene, but after thinking about it, I'd say Daniel is really not a sexual being at all. He cares about fortune and becoming powerful, and so he took another chance to show her father that he's really powerful, and he does whatever he tells him to do, and also please H.W., the only person he kind of know how to talk to. Then he couldn't talk to him anymore, he didn't know how to deal with him and their distance grew even more, and H.W. grew up, and became another one of those... people.

[Stefen]

But, see, I think he cared about his son at that point, while he wasn't already totally corrupted by the oil. That only happened, in my opinion, in that great fire/H.W. accident scene, which - the way I see it at least - marks the most decisive step towards hell and the moment Daniel started losing the rest of his humanity. Maybe I say that because Paul mentions "The Treasure of the Sierra Madre" a lot as inspiration, and that movie is also about that kind of corruption caused by greed. And greed becomes a illness, making you not care about anyone (not even yourself) except that fortune and it comes gradually until it consumes you to the bone.

That said, the scene was kind of unconfortable, at first I saw it as a fucked up sexual scene, but after thinking about it, I'd say Daniel is really not a sexual being at all. He cares about fortune and becoming powerful, and so he took another chance to show her father that he's really powerful, and he does whatever he tells him to do, and also please H.W., the only person he kind of know how to talk to. Then he couldn't talk to him anymore, he didn't know how to deal with him and their distance grew even more, and H.W. grew up, and became another one of those... people.

That's a great point about Daniel not knowing how to deal with H.W after he loses his hearing. H.W. I honestly don't think Daniel cared about H.W. until AFTER he lost his hearing. Before that he used H.W. to parade around as an accessory to gain sympathy like when he uses the story that his wife died during child birth. All BS to gain sympathy and an easier way to buy land and take advantage of good people.

When H.W. goes deaf it's then that Daniel begins caring, and he can't deal with it so he does the only thing he knows how to do which is send him away so he doesn't have to deal with it.

Daniel only cares about himself. The movie starts out with him prospecting all by himself. Nobody is around. When he breaks his leg he gets himself out of the mine. Nobody helps him. That sets him up perfectly. He's despicable. He only cares about himself.

[The Perineum Falcon]

I thought it clear that Daniel cared for H.W.
Throughout it seemed like he was raising H.W. to take his spot when he goes. It couldn't simply have been to parade around as an accessory or a tool for creeping into the hearts and minds of those he was buying land from. Certainly, that played a part in it, but there was more there, I felt.
The baptism scene seemed the clearest argument for his affections. Though Daniel obviously had ulterior motives, when he was crying out that he'd "abandonned his child" it felt like the most honest, pure and raw moment in all the film. I think it was at that point that Daniel came to terms with what he'd done and realized that his actions were despicable. Of course, it didn't seem to affect him long, but perhaps it was a catharsis, a public confession of what he'd already known. It wasn't until after H.W. came back that he became simply a tool for selling, or a burden at the very least. In my opinion.
Similar to Eli's confession in the end. That was the only moment in the film that I felt Eli was being truly honest, and they were both motivated by the need to get what they wanted, whatever the costs.

[md]

Saw it for the second time.  There is no doubt that Daniel cares for HW outside of his business, just look at the train scene preluding the flash forward...there is a warmth in his eyes and a tenderness in his heart that shows he will become his father.  We act as if parents, whether biological or surrogate, don't "use" their children...

What interested me is when Henry tells Daniel about his real brother.  He says he died of tuberculosis, and "wasn't hurt or killed"  -- blinks hard -- and then continues in cowardice to be asked to let go.  He is not a good man and deserves to die for killing the real Henry.  Did anyone else pick up on this subtlety? 

Also, the print at my local theatre looked atleast two stops darker than the print screened at the NY screening, making the cinematography much less detailed and darker than I remembered it.  Academy fucked up...how does a movie win best Actor and best Cinematography, and not take home best director...that's like not thanking the head coach of winning baseball team. 

[©brad]

i don't think there was ever a moment when daniel didn't love HW.

[Stefen]

I gotta disagree wholeheartedly. Daniel doesn't care about H.W. except in a way to use him to get what he wants from other people. He even tells him at the end when he should have been at his most vulnerable.

Why would he say "I should have seen it but I couldn't because you don't have any of me in you. Your someone elses. You're an orphan from a basket. I took you in for no other reason except I needed a sweet face to buy land. LOOK AT ME! You're lower than a bastard. You have none of me in you. Just a bastard from a basket." to Which H.W. replies, and this really resonated with me "I thank GOD that I have none of you in me".......That's heartbreaking. The GOD line makes that whole scene.

Daniel used him. When H.W. went deaf, I don't think it was sorrow he felt, but guilt. That's the reason he wants nothing to do with him. He hates him but he has to take care of him because everyone keeps asking about his boy to which Daniel gets upset anytime anyone brings him up. He wants them to forget about him so he can too. In the diner scene towards the end, he openly mocks H.W. to everyone else when he puts his napkin over his face and makes fun of H.W. to everyone else but H.W can't hear nor read his lips. It's heartbreaking.

Daniel cares for nobody but himself. H.W. after losing his hearing becomes a burden.

Daniel is alone and that's the way he wants it. He starts the movie alone fending for himself and he ends the movie alone. He's pushed everyone who might have ever cared for him away because he's a despicable human being who wasted his life chasing money over human emotion.

[©brad]

i honestly don't think it's even a matter of debate. the movie is chock-full of moments that prove daniel truly loves this boy. to name a few: after the oil explosion, when we see an oil-drenched daniel holding HW in his arms on the floor, the way daniel run-walks with such vigor when greeting HW as he returns from school, the scene when daniel threatens to cut the dude's throat after he suggests daniel quit the biz to take care of his son. even during their final scene together, the way daniel dismisses him so cruelly, this alone is proof. he's goddamn pissed that his son is leaving him, and he's drunk and stubborn and sinking and this is his way of dealing with it. if he didn't care about HW he wouldn't care about HW leaving. in fact, if he really didn't care about HW he would've gotten rid of him a long time ago. because honestly, he didn't really need HW after he started making bank. there was no reason from a business perspective to keep him around. what makes daniel such an interesting, multi-dimensional character is that yes he is consumed by greed and competition and disgust for people but at the same time has the capacity to grow to love and care deeply for someone else.

[Stefen]

I don't know, maybe it's all in as you interpret it. H.W. is pleading with Daniel to not leave him but Daniel does. His oil is on fire and tending to that is more important than making sure H.W. is okay.

[md]

What you fail to realize is that those words of hatred...the bastard in a basket line....is his last defense....total seperation.  Ken Kesey talks about a point in a boys life where he must beat his father at something, a rite of passage if you will.  Look at HW -- he's a handsome young man, while Daniel is nothing more than a crippled bitter misanthrope.  If he really didn't care, do you think he would have been able to uproot those feelings?  If he really didn't care he would have simply told him to leave, but instead he let's him have it, makes sure he gets into H.W's head, because the tide has turned and H.W. is not leaving him with a beautiful bride.

[picolas]

i have to go to sleep right away so i just scanned the above posts/sorry if this has already been said.

i agree with cbrad that there is zero debate about whether daniel cared about hw. even ignoring many many things like the gesture on the train or the gesture near the seepage or the flashback at the end that has absolutely nothing to do with using hw as a prop because he already has the oil etc etc and on and on, the absolute proof that daniel truly cares about hw is in the protection of mary. he only does so after hw has brought mary's beatings to his attention. it bothers hw, so he takes care of it. the way he speaks to mary appears creepish at first, but the way it's cut/composed reveals that it was a threat to the sunday father. he spoke loudly and repetitively because he was indirectly speaking to him. that's what makes plainview an interesting, dynamic character. he loves an individual deeply despite his plain view of mankind. without that it's not nearly as great a movie.