Breaking Bad

Started by squints, February 25, 2009, 07:23:38 PM

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Jeremy Blackman

Quote from: ©brad on August 10, 2011, 04:34:34 PMI read an interview with the guy who plays Mike and he said he spends a lot of time with Jesse this season.

Oh, interesting... maybe some unconventional rehab?

squints

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on August 10, 2011, 05:16:26 PM
Quote from: ©brad on August 10, 2011, 04:34:34 PMI read an interview with the guy who plays Mike and he said he spends a lot of time with Jesse this season.

Oh, interesting... maybe some unconventional rehab?

maybe mike turns jesse into a killing machine...
"The myth by no means finds its adequate objectification in the spoken word. The structure of the scenes and the visible imagery reveal a deeper wisdom than the poet himself is able to put into words and concepts" – Friedrich Nietzsche

Fernando

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on August 10, 2011, 02:12:42 PM
- During the bullet-point conversation, when Walter says "I'm truly sorry for all I put this family through" (paraphrasing) with real emotion... There's the illusion that it's part of their planned theatre, but we know it's real.

you're talking about the rehearsal right? because I interpreted the opposite of you (part of it), here's what Walt says:

Walt: I don't want Jr thinking less of me.
Skyler: At least you won it gambling, I'm just the bitch mom who couldn't cut you any slack.
*pause*
Walt: I'm sorry, I'm sorry that i put you through all of this
Skyler: *drops her jaw* *looks moved by it*
Walt: how's that sound?...hmm?


yes it was delivered with emotion but Walt was acting, Skyler's reaction is real I think, she thought that Walt was being sincere, that he was actually apologizing to her for everything, that's until he says ''how's that sound'', then she just stays speechless.

Walt is too proud, before the above he even justifies again for the nth time that he was/is providing for his family, he's proud of being the provider he never was, if it's with meth the hell with it, he's doing it.

Jeremy Blackman

I see your perspective, but I still have the opposite interpretation.

Whenever we've seen Walt get emotional in this series, it's been sincere. I don't think there's any basis for believing he was acting in that moment. I interpreted it as him communicating a real apology, without the pressure of certainty that he was sincere. It was a loophole that allowed him to do it. Because he wanted to. And he is sorry for what he's put his family through. (He's not sorry for providing for them. He's sorry about how it played out.)

socketlevel

I agree with Fernando because it's all about the emotion you leave the scene with. if it was directed/edited to be a rehearsal and then you're left with a serious look from Walt, then you would know he really meant it. however the scene does two emotional flips. first it's a rehearsal, then you think oh shit he means that, then you're left with him asking for the pen to change the dialog into something better, something that sounds more genuine. because his mind is thinking of the best thing to say, we know it's not genuine. Even though i know it's a grey area and it's a bit of both, the crucial sentiment in a scene is how it closes; it is what leaves us with hope or doom.

it was a fucking great scene. this was, in my opinion, the best episode of the season. every season has two or three episodes that are this well written and acted. "fly" and the episode from the first season with Walt's conversation with the guy bike locked in the basement come to mind.
the one last hit that spent you...

Jeremy Blackman

Wow, really? I think you're both completely wrong.

Quote from: socketlevel on August 11, 2011, 10:38:51 AMI agree with Fernando because it's all about the emotion you leave the scene with.

In this case, it may be about the misinterpretation you left the scene with.

It's about the emotion in that moment, and Walter's emotion was real. As I've said, he does not fake emotion like that... he never has at any point in the series. His lies with Skylar were always about practical things (nothing this deep), and he would deliver them in his jolly/hapless/nervous way. He does not fake that strained, angsty, regretful face. Ever.

Just because he breaks it, it must have been this inexplicably lifelike and completely random fakery? No... he breaks it because the intensity of it is too much for him, and he's too proud to go all the way (yet).

Quote from: socketlevel on August 11, 2011, 10:38:51 AMif it was directed/edited to be a rehearsal and then you're left with a serious look from Walt, then you would know he really meant it. however the scene does two emotional flips.

That doesn't mean we need to interpret the scene 100% straightforwardly based on the last thing that happened, disregarding the intense moment (of sincere emotion) that came just a few seconds earlier, just because there was an emotional flip. Breaking Bad has always had emotional complexity like this, and more than three seasons in, it's still an open question, and we still can't appreciate it?

Seriously... rewatch the scene!

I must know cbrad's thoughts on this controversy.

Quote from: Fernando on August 10, 2011, 05:22:05 PMWalt is too proud, before the above he even justifies again for the nth time that he was/is providing for his family, he's proud of being the provider he never was, if it's with meth the hell with it, he's doing it.

And I don't think this is an accurate characterization of Walter's motives. He is certainly proud of what he's done for his family, but he's not entirely proud of how he's done it, and definitely not happy with what he's done to his family. The writers have said as much through the actual dialogue many times. Walter is anything but a black-and-white "I cook meth and provide for my family, so deal with it" character. It's complex, as this show tends to be.

©brad

Yeah I'm on team Jeremy here. Look we know Walt doesn't really want to buy this car wash or attend gambling support groups. His feigning interest in both is an attempt to placate Skyler. He's pissed off. He's stressed as shit. And the last thing he wants to do is walk through Skyler's ridiculously over-thought outline. Dude has bigger things on his mind. He makes this very clear in his meeting with Sal. He's being an impatient, sarcastic ass, but he can be that and also express sincere remorse at the same time.

Maybe it was Walter's pride that led him to add that sarcastic bit at the very end. Maybe he saw Skyler was tearing up and about to get very emotional, and wasn't in the mood to let it all out right then. I just don't see how this final moment of him amending the script negates the apology. Hell he better be sorry, otherwise I'm not sure why we're still rooting for him.




socketlevel

When Walt asks for the pen to change the line, the audience is with Skylar at that moment; the disappointment that it wasn't real. We see her pain and the attempt to hide it because even though Walt isn't apologizing, he is in fact approaching what she originally wanted from the scene; proactive engagement rather than dismissal of the script she proposed. It's bitter sweet for her. It is her emotional expectation, not his. Therefore it ends up being her scene and not his. In Walt's performance there was no hesitation to cover up his bad feelings toward what he has done. if there was a slight hesitation (something Brian cranston is really good at doing) then clearly it would have been genuine. He takes the pen, makes the changes and is unaware of any potential discomfort from what he said.

just like editing, the emotions and dialog of moments are only relevant when looking at the surrounding emotions and intent. The entire pay off of that scene and emotional exchange comes from reversals. If all we ever did was look at emotions of "that moment" then we remove irony, satire, grief, disappointment and so many other dramatic devices from our palette.

He breaks it in a way that he has no self reflection on the moment. Skylar is the one reflecting, and therefore she (and hopefully the audience) is disappointed in his inability to take accountability.
the one last hit that spent you...

Jeremy Blackman

Quote from: socketlevel on August 11, 2011, 01:09:14 PM
When Walt asks for the pen to change the line, the audience is with Skylar at that moment; the disappointment that it wasn't real.

I know what you're getting at, but I think her reaction was more like this: "Wow, what was that?" It wasn't really acted well enough to give us more information than that. She probably has a few things going through her mind... probably something like "did he just do that?" combined with "well that's a little disappointing, I thought he was going to see that through."

We don't have nearly enough information to assume (as you are) that Skylar believed it was 100% fake, and we definitely don't have enough information to go beyond that and assume that it was indeed fake. The strongest evidence we have is Walter's emotion in that moment, which as I've described, and which is supported by the entire history and context of the show since its inception, was very likely a moment of real emotional clarity.

The conclusions you're drawing are loosely related to what actually appeared on screen... moreover they contradict the entire history and current trajectory of the characters and the story.

(BB debating is fun!)

socketlevel

it is indeed  :)

The main reason i say this is because we're clearly in her head at the end of the scene, which makes it "her" scene. This is a staple of visual story telling. Another example of this can be seen when Walt is talking to Hank the tank. The scene Hank fills Walt in on the case he's been asked to look at. In that entire scene, we the audience, are with Walter's every thought. Is he going to get caught? how will he outwit Hank? Will Hank figure it out? etc... information is being held from Hank at that moment. Information that we the audience have.

I'm not saying every scene has only one person's perspective, there can be more than one, or reversals, or in some cases there can be none. Robert Altman is famous for making movies that don't utilize this subjective technique.

But back to BB and the scene in question, the audience is clearly in Skylar's head at the end of that scene; which means Walt is unaware of something that Skylar and the audience is not. What makes this scene very affective is the fact that when Walt starts to "apologize" it's establishing it as "his" scene. we think, here is the moment he is addressing his grave mistakes and how much it jeopardized his family. The scene could have ended with Skylar saying "That's a great line, change it." and handed him the pen. This version of the scene (which could have been totally fucking awesome too) would leave Walter (and the audience) disappointed that she couldn't see his cryptic attempt to apologize. we would therefore be sympathizing with Walt at the end. One of the brilliant techniques is that right when it's going to be Walt's scene, it ends up being Skylar's scene; which ends in true BB awesomeness because they don't go for the obvious. Instead they went for the more tragic ending.
the one last hit that spent you...

©brad

Quote from: socketlevel on August 11, 2011, 01:09:14 PMHe breaks it in a way that he has no self reflection on the moment. Skylar is the one reflecting, and therefore she (and hopefully the audience) is disappointed in his inability to take accountability.

Again, I think he is taking accountability, it's just veiled in sarcasm and frustration.

I see him as saying "I am truly sorry for everything, but at this very moment I have more pressing things on my mind than rehearsing this ridiculous story for my jackass in-laws. Things like, is my boss going to slice my throat open tomorrow? Point being, I love you, now fuck off."

socketlevel

I think if you were right brad, Walt would have hesitated or looked shy not being able to look her in the eye (something that character does a lot). instead he happily goes about changing the line on the page.
the one last hit that spent you...

Jeremy Blackman

That's way too much to assume. As cbrad said, he has plenty of things twisting him up inside, and he's pointedly on edge. It makes total sense that a breakthrough of real emotion like that would be brief and would end abruptly. What we're saying is that he's sort of batting it down... he's definitely not ready to fully express his regret.

Fernando

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on August 11, 2011, 12:02:21 PM
Quote from: Fernando on August 10, 2011, 05:22:05 PMWalt is too proud, before the above he even justifies again for the nth time that he was/is providing for his family, he's proud of being the provider he never was, if it's with meth the hell with it, he's doing it.

And I don't think this is an accurate characterization of Walter's motives. He is certainly proud of what he's done for his family, but he's not entirely proud of how he's done it, and definitely not happy with what he's done to his family. The writers have said as much through the actual dialogue many times. Walter is anything but a black-and-white "I cook meth and provide for my family, so deal with it" character. It's complex, as this show tends to be.

no, no, no, my bad. the right word I wanted to use was pride, he has too much pride, i agree on everything you said above specially ''Walter is anything but a black-and-white...''

I reread my post and see why you thought that; I got lost in translation.

unfortunately, ill have to read the rest of the posts later as I have a lot of work now

Jeremy Blackman

Fair enough.

Need to add something. I realized I forgot the strongest part of my argument, but I needed to re-watch this scene to pull out what I was thinking about.

Walter certainly has some resentment going on, and he realizes Skylar is trying to punish him with this whole exercise. I understand how that can be interpreted as likely to evoke a simply hostile response. But it's more complex. Let's review it:

Skylar says, "I'm just the bitch mom that wouldn't cut you any slack." Walter clearly feels bad about this, so he pauses, gets emotional, appears to introspect for a moment, and he says the thing we've been talking about: "I'm sorry... I'm sorry that I put you through all of this..." Look again at the way he nods when he says "I'm sorry," and then his lips actually quiver like he's about to choke up. It's subtle, but it's undeniably there. Then we get a somewhat extended shot of Skylar giving him a clear look like, "Wow, is he really--" And Walter pulls back abruptly with "how's that sound?", which I think is a clear attempt to prevent Skylar from getting a full victory in this moment.

Perhaps even more significant is that Walter comes up with "I'm sorry... I'm sorry that I put you through all of this" from scratch. It's not even a variation on one of Skylar's lines. It's completely his. And there's no way he would create that notion just to be sarcastic about it, because it's too close to home and he knows it's true. (This is not even subtext; he's basically said as much through actual dialogue in previous episodes.)

Also remember that Walter is distressed right now about the danger he's currently putting his family in.