Licorice Pizza - Speculation & General Reactions

WorldForgot · January 17, 2020, 10:49:40 AM

Quote from: Drill on January 17, 2020, 05:56:08 AM
Another sausagefest, huh? Lol, he's going to get so much shit if this is another white boy/male genius story.

This is just as presumptuous as those outrage takes would be. PTA writes with nuance in a way that even the attempted takedowns of Reynolds Woodcock felt part of Phantom Thread's thematic fabric.

Drenk · January 17, 2020, 11:15:59 AM

I've noticed a lot of love online for Phantom Thread coming from female viewers, and that's probably one of the reasons why the outrage takes didn't, well, take at the time—especially when they're coming from men seeking street cred with low efforts.

He's been living for years with a black woman, he has black kids, and his fictional world is still very white, so he seems still focused on his roots/past, White Boy From the Valley. And he's making a movie about the White Boy From the Valley. I wouldn't be surprised if that would mark the end of a certain era.

Drill · January 17, 2020, 11:42:10 AM

I didn't say he should care. But compared to his peers, he's sort of escaped a lot of that criticism. He's never even really been questioned about it. Probably because he's very likable and charming. If he ever fucks up in an interview, the knives would be out.

Like Drenk basically said, I think it's fair to question why his worldview, at least in his writing, seems to be so white, male, and narrow when that's not even his life anymore.

Of course, we don't know for sure if the lead is another white male. That suggests it probably is though. It's not a crime but when even Nolan, Joel Coen, and Sofia Coppola (and possibly Wes) are making an effort, it's a bit conspicuous.

kingfan011 · January 17, 2020, 12:16:19 PM

Quote from: Drill on January 17, 2020, 11:42:10 AM
I didn't say he should care. But compared to his peers, he's sort of escaped a lot of that criticism. He's never even really been questioned about it. Probably because he's very likable and charming. If he ever fucks up in an interview, the knives would be out.

Like Drenk basically said, I think it's fair to question why his worldview, at least in his writing, seems to be so white, male, and narrow when that's not even his life anymore.

Of course, we don't know for sure if the lead is another white male. That suggests it probably is though. It's not a crime but when even Nolan, Joel Coen, and Sofia Coppola (and possibly Wes) are making an effort, it's a bit conspicuous.

I agree with this but I also don't mind especially when there are so many diverse voices out there in cinema. Actually maybe even too many voices. I feel like I still haven't finished all my Oscar or what was Oscar potential films there is so many. I mean if this is what his world view is then I guess thats that.

Aside from not getting called on it is because while he may be continuing to operate through a specific world view its filtered thorough strange and left field films that at least don't typically feel like "here another old white guy problems" movie. He is also charming in interviews

Drenk · January 17, 2020, 12:46:19 PM

The thing is that he hasn't been narrow in focus on white males, and his black characters in Magnolia are quite embarrassing (I'm sure he has matured since). I've also linked to articles about queer reading of some of his movies which go beyond: "Is Freddy Quell gay?" His angle isn't typical.

Diversity isn't a case to check, the real issue has always been the access to power*. An egalitarian industry would produce diverse movies, but directors don't have to make an effort to be "inclusive". PTA isn't writing movies about race in America, so having mostly white people isn't an issue.

*Disney is patting themselves on the back for their "inclusiveness" while being a white, male, patriarchal clusterfuck.

kingfan011 · January 17, 2020, 01:00:00 PM

Quote from: Drenk on January 17, 2020, 12:46:19 PM
The thing is that he hasn't been narrow in focus on white males, and his black characters in Magnolia are quite embarrassing (I'm sure he has matured since). I've also linked to articles about queer reading of some of his movies which go beyond: "Is Freddy Quell gay?" His angle isn't typical.

Diversity isn't a case to check, the real issue has always been the access to power*. An egalitarian industry would produce diverse movies, but directors don't have to make an effort to be "inclusive". PTA isn't writing movies about race in America, so having mostly white people isn't an issue.

*Disney is patting themselves on the back for their "inclusiveness" while being a white, male, patriarchal clusterfuck.

I adore Magnolia but wow the basically two black characters in there are a bit cringey which is weird since Buck Swope is such a fully realized character

Pringle · January 17, 2020, 01:17:33 PM

If you're making a period-accurate film about the entertainment world in the 70s, and the lead is a successful teenage kid, you're casting a white kid. It's harsh, but true. It would be a lie to pretend that people of color had the same opportunities as white people did in that world.

Pringle · January 17, 2020, 01:19:35 PM

And I don't think we should rule out the possibility that this could be the project that PTA was talking about working on with his daughter. If that's the case, he will be the wokest guy in film for the entire Oscar season.

trytotell · January 17, 2020, 01:35:46 PM

I really don't think he's working on anything with his daughter. He was just being cute.

jenkins · January 17, 2020, 01:41:20 PM

the concept of being woke is not a socially progressive concept itself. it's just a term meant to motivate the backwards types

there's no right way to do things, you're just a good person or you're not

Pringle · January 17, 2020, 02:51:03 PM

Quote from: jenkins on January 17, 2020, 01:41:20 PM
the concept of being woke is not a socially progressive concept itself. it's just a term meant to motivate the backwards types

there's no right way to do things, you're just a good person or you're not

This is absolutely true, but it has become something that is used a definitive standard for judging artists and their art, especially in the film industry and in film media. It's always gonna get brought up and discussed, especially with the kind of throwback alpha auteur that PTA is. That's his brand and that's the niche he occupies. That's why we love him. But it's something inescapable these days. It happened with Tarantino, it happened with Scorsese, it happened with Wes Anderson, and it even somehow happened with Greta Gerwig.

I mean, this is as PTA-friendly as any place on the internet, and we're already discussing it within that framework.

WorldForgot · January 17, 2020, 03:12:43 PM

Quote from: Pringle on January 17, 2020, 02:51:03 PM
Quote from: jenkins on January 17, 2020, 01:41:20 PM
the concept of being woke is not a socially progressive concept itself. it’s just a term meant to motivate the backwards types

there’s no right way to do things, you’re just a good person or you’re not

This is absolutely true, but it has become something that is used a definitive standard for judging artists and their art, especially in the film industry and in film media. It’s always gonna get brought up and discussed, especially with the kind of throwback alpha auteur that PTA is. That’s his brand and that’s the niche he occupies. That’s why we love him. But it’s something inescapable these days. It happened with Tarantino, it happened with Scorsese, it happened with Wes Anderson, and it even somehow happened with Greta Gerwig.

I mean, this is as PTA-friendly as any place on the internet, and we’re already discussing it within that framework.

It's not a definitive standard, though, it's just a form of critique or op-ed that receives clicks because it's sensational, and a form that's existed for directors/writers before him, too. De Palma was derided as a misogynist because it was easier to write the outrage piece than a nuanced Pauline Kael consideration. It holds no basis in regards to judging PTA, and as far as I can tell doesn't affect public opinion toward Wes Anderson or Greta Gerwig at all. Because as Drenk mentioned, they aren't writing about race.

Tyler Perry gets as much criticism as Tarantino or Scorsese for his race and gender roles, but really, these articles or critiques don't affect any of them because (under our neolib status quo) their market is secured.

Drill · January 17, 2020, 05:30:38 PM

Writing about race doesn't and shouldn't be the only reason to think to include more POC. Their race doesn't have to even ever be mentioned. There was no reason for every main character in Magnolia to be white. And while I don't think this, the constant period pieces could be construed as a convenient excuse to have only white leads.

It's not being "woke" to point it out and question it. It's more a larger point about his apparently limited worldview. Having 3 1/4 black daughters hasn't really inspired him at all? Tarantino is by no means my favorite, but he certainly puts PTA and most of their peers to shame in that department (and with female characters, but I went through that in the Magnolia thread).

It's a pretty major blind spot on his career, which has been great but could be significantly greater. He's mastered tackling masculinity, at this point more would feel like he's playing it safe. It feels like as much as he's done, he could do so much more, so it would be disappointing if he chooses to stick with what he knows.

jenkins · January 17, 2020, 05:42:07 PM

Quote from: Drill on January 17, 2020, 05:30:38 PM
Writing about race doesn't and shouldn't be the only reason to think to include more POC. Their race doesn't have to even ever be mentioned. There was no reason for every main character in Magnolia to be white. And while I don't think this, the constant period pieces could be construed as a convenient excuse to have only white leads.

It's not being "woke" to point it out and question it. It's more a larger point about his apparently limited worldview. Having 3 1/4 black daughters hasn't really inspired him at all? Tarantino is by no means my favorite, but he certainly puts PTA and most of their peers to shame in that department (and with female characters, but I went through that in the Magnolia thread).

It's a pretty major blind spot on his career, which has been great but could be significantly greater. He's mastered tackling masculinity, at this point more would feel like he's playing it safe. It feels like as much as he's done, he could do so much more, so it would be disappointing if he chooses to stick with what he knows.

i got really into that

WorldForgot · January 17, 2020, 05:45:13 PM

Quote from: Drill on January 17, 2020, 05:30:38 PM
Having 3 1/4 black daughters hasn't really inspired him at all?

This is why I feel it's baseless and sensationalized. Reductive identity politic, especially when you frame it like this. Race and artist as commodity, rather than as people creating art.

(Anyway, there's no reason to expect there won't be more "POC" as you put it in his next film. We're only speaking about this framework because you positioned it as a white-male-boy's story, which iz speculation until we've seen the cast/film.)