Licorice Pizza - SPOILERS!

[itwasgood]

Yes! And I went back to Vineland a lot when I watched the film. There's something underneath so Pynchonian about all these running young kids, the kind of lilt, the relaxation and the freedom, reminded me of Vineland so much.

[Drenk]

Once again: the only unhealthy aspect of their relationship as depicted in the movie is that Alana refuses to fuck him because he's a teenager. Hence the resolution of the movie when she accepts her love for Gary as a beautiful, unorthodox thing, which is as far as possible as a genuine exploration of how fucked up the real relationships of adult with teenagers are. Quite the contrary. That's borderline apologia in this movie where, purposefully, age is a mental construct and everything is possible. Every narrative decision in the movie leads toward Alana making that choice; wilder mentioned that he thought « wait, what? » at the end, and I understand the confusion—but the movie's infatuation with these actors is so strong that it actually thinks that Alana getting away from Gary when she starts working for Wachs is a mistake, that nobody has their life together therefore looking for direction has no sense, so run, girl, run! Get that boy.

A co-dependent friendship where they would both, in this sordid yet cartoonish LA, discover the perils of growing up or not growing up, would have been interesting, but no: 75% of the scenes in this movie are about their magical thirst for each other. Maybe if they'd fucked earlier, their dynamic would have been more profound than the same jealousy loop. Because PTA thinks that's beautiful, actually. Well. Go for it. Write it. Explore it.

tl;dr

https://twitter.com/sbodrojan/status/1471146912187404290

[Achpi]

i don't really get what's wrong about a fantasy movie.

he obviously wanted to do something new, spontaneous, something light. he didn't want to explore through his writing the darkness of things of how fucked up things are. he wanted to explore the fun and joy of things, including complicated or negative ones. in that sense, the movie is nostalgic, if nostalgia is a way of looking back and seeing all things from the past with a positive outlook.

i do get the complain about the jealousy loop, (even though it didn't bother me at all on the first viewing). it's his first movie since magnolia that feels like this is 90% first draft, and from what i read it was probably the first time he changed dialogues as much on set. i do remember him explaining the harassing process of writing PT and working with DDL, and he said he stopped writing a very long and dark screenplay to do LP. It does come with a price, the jealousy loop and things unexplored or some easy ways out, but it's his first movie with as much life and spontaneity in it, both in individual scenes and in the whole movie's soul.

i do feel like this is his first reinvention since TWBB (and i admire artists being able to do that, especially at his age and at this point in his career), and we can mourn on the things we lost, but i can't help but celebrate the things we gained. 

[PaulElroy35]

i don't really get what's wrong about a fantasy movie.

he obviously wanted to do something new, spontaneous, something light. he didn't want to explore through his writing the darkness of things of how fucked up things are. he wanted to explore the fun and joy of things, including complicated or negative ones. in that sense, the movie is nostalgic, if nostalgia is a way of looking back and seeing all things from the past with a positive outlook.

i do get the complain about the jealousy loop, (even though it didn't bother me at all on the first viewing). it's his first movie since magnolia that feels like this is 90% first draft, and from what i read it was probably the first time he changed dialogues as much on set. i do remember him explaining the harassing process of writing PT and working with DDL, and he said he stopped writing a very long and dark screenplay to do LP. It does come with a price, the jealousy loop and things unexplored or some easy ways out, but it's his first movie with as much life and spontaneity in it, both in individual scenes and in the whole movie's soul.

i do feel like this is his first reinvention since TWBB (and i admire artists being able to do that, especially at his age and at this point in his career), and we can mourn on the things we lost, but i can't help but celebrate the things we gained.

"and we can mourn on the things we lost"

What do you mean by this if i can ask?

[Achpi]

well, some of the positive reviews here in france say that PTA lost them with his cerebral, dark, uptight movies, and that they now love the new-found life and energy. i'm guessing people feel the exact opposite.

i think drenk would have loved if LP explored alana and gary's relationship with as much depth, personal and thematic complexity that we had in the master. but pta doesn't want try, he doesn't want to, and i get it can be frustrating since he could have and there was a lot of things to say and explore, but that's just not the movie he wanted to do this time around.

[PaulElroy35]

well, some of the positive reviews here in france say that PTA lost them with his cerebral, dark, uptight movies, and that they now love the new-found life and energy. i'm guessing people feel the exact opposite.

i think drenk would have loved if LP explored alana and gary's relationship with as much depth, personal and thematic complexity that we had in the master. but pta doesn't want try, he doesn't want to, and i get it can be frustrating since he could have and there was a lot of things to say and explore, but that's just not the movie he wanted to do this time around.

I mean the film isnt as "heavy" as say the master but its still deep and complex as it.

[pynchonikon]

i don't really get what's wrong about a fantasy movie.

Well, actually something even better than a fantasy movie, is a Pynchonian movie.

[achordion]

Once again: the only unhealthy aspect of their relationship as depicted in the movie is that Alana refuses to fuck him because he’s a teenager. Hence the resolution of the movie when she accepts her love for Gary as a beautiful, unorthodox thing, which is as far as possible as a genuine exploration of how fucked up the real relationships of adult with teenagers are. Quite the contrary. That’s borderline apologia in this movie where, purposefully, age is a mental construct and everything is possible. Every narrative decision in the movie leads toward Alana making that choice; wilder mentioned that he thought « wait, what? » at the end, and I understand the confusion—but the movie’s infatuation with these actors is so strong that it actually thinks that Alana getting away from Gary when she starts working for Wachs is a mistake, that nobody has their life together therefore looking for direction has no sense, so run, girl, run! Get that boy.

A co-dependent friendship where they would both, in this sordid yet cartoonish LA, discover the perils of growing up or not growing up, would have been interesting, but no: 75% of the scenes in this movie are about their magical thirst for each other. Maybe if they’d fucked earlier, their dynamic would have been more profound than the same jealousy loop. Because PTA thinks that’s beautiful, actually. Well. Go for it. Write it. Explore it.

tl;dr

https://twitter.com/sbodrojan/status/1471146912187404290

I think the script is PTA's least polished which, for some, may be part of its charm. So in a sense, I don't disagree with your analysis, but I also don't agree.

You are fixated on the age-gap. It's equally valid though to look at the film in the way which PTA has expressed it. The age-gap is merely a screwball conceit. The reason why Alana runs back to Gary after Wachs tries to use her as his beard, is because Wachs is choosing his career over the most passionate relationship in his life. Alana realizes she's doing the same, and gets over her self-consciousness about whether she's acting grown-up enough by following the thing that gives her passion (her no-labels relationship with Gary). The only thing that complicates that interpretation is the final line of the film which didn't land for me. "I love you Gary" just feels like typical uncomplicated romcom fluff. Felt like PTA just wanted to end it on a positive and commercial note despite the impact it would have on the thematics and character dynamics that were explored in the film.

[Drenk]

The movie spends ten minutes with Alana working for Wachs, she's not sacrificing Gary for her career (there's no career there anyway). The ending is clearly about repressing a desire that is deemed « unorthodox » by society. Alana doesn't want to repress her romantic love/desire for Gary anymore. Like I said, after the police arrest the movie spends twenty minutes showing them talking about sex without doing it because Alana feels bad about it. Then Gary « respects » her choice by not groping her in her sleep. It's the only narrative thread of the last half of the movie. PTA desperately wants them to be together for reasons that you won't find in the movie, so the problem is dealt with at the end by comparing her situation with homosexuals in the seventies.

[PaulElroy35]

The movie spends ten minutes with Alana working for Wachs, she's not sacrificing Gary for her career (there's no career there anyway). The ending is clearly about repressing a desire that is deemed « unorthodox » by society. Alana doesn't want to repress her romantic love/desire for Gary anymore. Like I said, after the police arrest the movie spends twenty minutes showing them talking about sex without doing it because Alana feels bad about it. Then Gary « respects » her choice by not groping her in her sleep. It's the only narrative thread of the last half of the movie. PTA desperately wants them to be together for reasons that you won't find in the movie, so the problem is dealt with at the end by comparing her situation with homosexuals in the seventies.

How do you know what PTA wants them together?

[achordion]

The movie spends ten minutes with Alana working for Wachs, she’s not sacrificing Gary for her career (there’s no career there anyway). The ending is clearly about repressing a desire that is deemed « unorthodox » by society. Alana doesn’t want to repress her romantic love/desire for Gary anymore. Like I said, after the police arrest the movie spends twenty minutes showing them talking about sex without doing it because Alana feels bad about it. Then Gary « respects » her choice by not groping her in her sleep. It’s the only narrative thread of the last half of the movie. PTA desperately wants them to be together for reasons that you won’t find in the movie, so the problem is dealt with at the end by comparing her situation with homosexuals in the seventies.

Working for Wachs is Alana taking on an adult world role, and yes, moving her career life forward. This is why there is the element of pride at being noticed for her work by Wachs. Her character motivations for running away from the Wachs situation are many. The thematic link of taboo is there, but to say its equating the two types of taboo is a stretch, plain and simple (and no amount of cataloguing minutes spent on particular topics will make it less of a stretch). Honestly, I think you're too fixated on your one interpretation to see what other undercurrents there are running through the film. Given the plot synopsis of this film, it sounds like you should've know that you would be put off by it going in. Seeing this type of narrative done with this degree of artistic awareness doesn't bother me, but the last shot was a let down, because it leaves things on too much of a romcom note, when the preceding two hours had been anything but typical romcom and we were given every reason to see why a real romance would not work between them.

[Achpi]

"i love you gary" is especially disapointing because it's hard to not compare it to "here we go..." wich was so sweet, so natural, opened the idea that the real challenge - building a relationship - was ahead of them...

"i love you gary" doesn't tell us anything new - we know they love each other, the question was "what kind of love?" and "what to do with it, now and in the future?" and this doesn't give us any kind of clue.

the cute thing, though, is that i never could imagine barry and lena's love affaire lasting very long, but i can imagine alana and gary staying close for many years. they may be "breaking up" soon but yeah, they'll never forget each other, they'll still love each other even if they lose touch, it will always be that special relationship you had in your youth.

and "i love you gary" doesn't really embode all that.

[Jeremy Blackman]

"i love you gary" doesn't tell us anything new - we know they love each other, the question was "what kind of love?"

Oh I don't think there's any doubt that this movie is quite horny. A lot of people (not you, necessarily) have been ignoring Alana's desire, which is sort of everpresent and ends up driving much of the plot.

they'll never forget each other, they'll still love each other even if they lose touch, it will always be that special relationship you had in your youth.

Crucial pronoun switch for the "youth" descriptor.

[Drenk]

The movie spends ten minutes with Alana working for Wachs, she's not sacrificing Gary for her career (there's no career there anyway). The ending is clearly about repressing a desire that is deemed « unorthodox » by society. Alana doesn't want to repress her romantic love/desire for Gary anymore. Like I said, after the police arrest the movie spends twenty minutes showing them talking about sex without doing it because Alana feels bad about it. Then Gary « respects » her choice by not groping her in her sleep. It's the only narrative thread of the last half of the movie. PTA desperately wants them to be together for reasons that you won't find in the movie, so the problem is dealt with at the end by comparing her situation with homosexuals in the seventies.

Working for Wachs is Alana taking on an adult world role, and yes, moving her career life forward. This is why there is the element of pride at being noticed for her work by Wachs. Her character motivations for running away from the Wachs situation are many. The thematic link of taboo is there, but to say its equating the two types of taboo is a stretch, plain and simple (and no amount of cataloguing minutes spent on particular topics will make it less of a stretch). Honestly, I think you're too fixated on your one interpretation to see what other undercurrents there are running through the film. Given the plot synopsis of this film, it sounds like you should've know that you would be put off by it going in. Seeing this type of narrative done with this degree of artistic awareness doesn't bother me, but the last shot was a let down, because it leaves things on too much of a romcom note, when the preceding two hours had been anything but typical romcom and we were given every reason to see why a real romance would not work between them.

She's working with Gary when she's collaborating with Wachs, by the way. I forgot to mention that. They were not separated. I'm not blind to the narrative around adulthood, but I've already mentioned that it builds toward the message that the respectability of adulthood is a myth, that age is a mental construct, in order to make an adult's desire for a teenager as legitimate as any other form of desire. It's done that with almost every adult character in the movie. I also think it is quite stupid. Not the idea that adulthood isn't a myth, but the idea that it can be used as a justification to date teenagers. What's new with the ending is the parallel with repressed desires, which is the main reason why PTA placed it before the romance is fully acknowledged. And the subject matter isn't my issue; its treatment is.

[Achpi]

"i love you gary" doesn't tell us anything new - we know they love each other, the question was "what kind of love?"

Oh I don't think there's any doubt that this movie is quite horny. A lot of people (not you, necessarily) have been ignoring Alana's desire, which is sort of everpresent and ends up driving much of the plot.

i agree, but (and that may be the reason i don't have a problem with the age gap) they still have a good relationship and the desire's not fullfilled nor looks like it will be fullfilled in the forseeable future, and i 100% believe they will remain close when the desire's long gone.

i actually feel like alana loves gary despite her desire for him.