Licorice Pizza - Speculation & General Reactions

Started by Fuzzy Dunlop, August 30, 2017, 12:58:10 PM

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jzakko

I think this discussion is worth having, I've seen it twice and I wanna weigh in.

But we're still pre-release and we can't discuss the details yet and the people with the biggest issue with it haven't seen the film. 
Spoiler: ShowHide
Personally I think PTA handles it beautifully but I still need to reflect on the final few minutes as that's the only place where I might take issue with the depiction. I want to have discussions about those details, not vague generalities about what might be in the film.


Let's just wait till enough have seen it that we can discuss this openly, because it's not a productive debate until we can.


HACKANUT

Maybe I'm alone in this, but I'm excited that the age gap stuff invites a level of weirdness into an otherwise tame sounding story. Reality is always more complicated than fiction. I'm sure this sort of relationship has happened many times in real life and going on that complicated journey is interesting.

I'll reserve judgement until I've seen it, but If PTA can do anything, it's catalog the oddness and nuance of humanity.

Drenk

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on November 21, 2021, 01:28:06 PM
Drenk, you and I, having not seen the movie, don’t really know to what extent the relationship is described as innocent. The weirdness (and maybe wrongness?) of it seems central to the story.

But I also understand that your position is that any extent is too much. And that seems like a valid point of view.

My best guess is that the relationship is meant to come off as innocently weird, without any predatory undertones, with a diegetic understanding that the age gap forces it to be a friendship. I’m just guessing though.


I'm quoting the words of Reilly and PTA in two different interviews: they described the relationship as "innocent". Maybe this is only PR, but trying to make this story innocent is like juggling on a very thin line, and I'm definitely curious to see how the movie deals with it. Gary being a pushy teen and Alana being embarrassed by his behavior despite developing a strong bond with the kid isn't a narrative issue. But the innocence disappears instantly once Alana has romantic feelings for a teenager, being TEN years older in the diegesis of Pizza and looking like it.

The trailer strongly implies that Alana will be jealous, jealous in a childish way (sticking her tongue...), and this is my issue: a twenty-five years old woman is simply not jealous of a fifteen years old kid without being...creepy...To avoid creepiness, then, you make the adult act like a kid, a silly narrative loophole.

The Instagram picture where they look like a couple is marketing, but...It seems to want to be an innocent romance between a fifteen years old and a woman in her mid-twenties and it can't be without twisting the characters, especially the character of Alana and, I guess, her family.

A friendship between a fifteen years old and a twenty-five years old woman is weird and complex enough.

Six weeks before January 5th. (Also, yeah: apologies to those who have seen the movie, but not too many apologies since, you know, you have seen the movie.  :yabbse-grin: )
Ascension.


wilberfan

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on November 21, 2021, 01:28:06 PM
My best guess is that the relationship is meant to come off as innocently weird, without any predatory undertones, with a diegetic understanding that the age gap forces it to be a friendship. I'm just guessing though.

JB, for someone that hasn't seen the film, this is a very good read.  And, Drenk, maybe I'm missing your larger point, but your use of the word "grooming" just doesn't feel anywhere close to being applicable to the dynamics of the relationship between A&G in this movie.   
"When something doesn't resonate, it quickly becomes a tedious endurance test."

pynchonikon

I guess a big point of the discourse is that the whole "the relationship is meant to come off as innocently weird, without any predatory undertones, with a diegetic understanding that the age gap forces it to be a friendship" looks (and apparently according to many, is) superficial and not realistic.

WorldForgot

Which would be quite silly as a criticism considering the film iz rife with a predatory sort of air (and thematic angle) that the two protagonists feel and recognize.

wilberfan

I'm falling behind, here...

But,

Definition of predatory

1a : of, relating to, or practicing plunder, pillage, or rapine
b : inclined or intended to injure or exploit others for personal gain or profit


At some point--maybe after more of us have seen it?--gently take me by the hand and walk me thru the use of this word as it applies to this discussion.  Or, if you don't want to wait that long, over in the spoiler thread....   I'm not feeling any predatory impulses from either of them...
"When something doesn't resonate, it quickly becomes a tedious endurance test."

Drenk

Quote from: pynchonikon on November 22, 2021, 10:46:41 AM
I guess a big point of the discourse is that the whole "the relationship is meant to come off as innocently weird, without any predatory undertones, with a diegetic understanding that the age gap forces it to be a friendship" looks (and apparently according to many, is) superficial and not realistic.

This is it. So wilber: yes, what appears on the film is maybe innocent, and that's my issue. It would be outlandish to portray something innocent: no adult who isn't grooming a teenager would get that involved that deeply with one. Avoiding that is being ignorant and/or dishonest.

And WorldForgot: apparently wilber missed these vibes entirely!

So yeah: I can't wait to actually discuss the movie.
Ascension.

WorldForgot

Quote from: Drenk on November 22, 2021, 11:03:30 AM
Quote from: pynchonikon on November 22, 2021, 10:46:41 AM
I guess a big point of the discourse is that the whole "the relationship is meant to come off as innocently weird, without any predatory undertones, with a diegetic understanding that the age gap forces it to be a friendship" looks (and apparently according to many, is) superficial and not realistic.

This is it. So wilber: yes, what appears on the film is maybe innocent, and that's my issue. It would be outlandish to portray something innocent: no adult who isn't grooming a teenager would get that involved that deeply with one. Avoiding that is being ignorant and/or dishonest.

And WorldForgot: apparently wilber missed these vibes entirely!

So yeah: I can't wait to actually discuss the movie.

What's extra funny iz (first scene spoilers)
Spoiler: ShowHide
Alana iz literally grooming teenagers as a job when we meet her.
Paul may be a tricky jokester but he aint shy lol

Drenk

I know the ending, but I really like discovering first scenes so I won't click.  :yabbse-grin:
Ascension.

WorldForgot

Hehe ^+^

Excited for everyone to experience the film for further discussion. It certainly does feel like a logical next-step to PTA's formal and thematic questions.


edited my message cuz if Yes reads the first name thing they're gonna cringe :P

PaulElroy35

Quote from: Drenk on November 22, 2021, 11:03:30 AM
Quote from: pynchonikon on November 22, 2021, 10:46:41 AM
I guess a big point of the discourse is that the whole "the relationship is meant to come off as innocently weird, without any predatory undertones, with a diegetic understanding that the age gap forces it to be a friendship" looks (and apparently according to many, is) superficial and not realistic.

This is it. So wilber: yes, what appears on the film is maybe innocent, and that's my issue. It would be outlandish to portray something innocent: no adult who isn't grooming a teenager would get that involved that deeply with one. Avoiding that is being ignorant and/or dishonest.

And WorldForgot: apparently wilber missed these vibes entirely!

So yeah: I can't wait to actually discuss the movie.

Seems like you have made your mind up already though so wont be mucch of a discussion

WorldForgot

Matt, a bad-faith reading of anyone's posts won't be of use to any discussion or insights. Let's all please be respectful to differing perspectives and not lump our assumptions-of-stubbornness onto other users unless they're rousing up troll posts and not just interpreting works.

If you peruse Drenk's post history you won't find them to be the type to want to dislike a film and especially not one of PTA'z