All That Jazz came out on DVD yesterday. This is required viewing. Not only do I challenge everybody at this site, but I don't believe there's a working filmmaker today who's capable of making a film like this.
How to do 'the jazz hands'
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I'm gonna blind buy this.
Lenny is one of my favorite movies, so I trust Fosse.
A few friends and myself watched it last night. It is one of my personal favorites and all though there is a lot to say about it, I think the editing is top notch and great. Possibly an overlooked aspect of it, but it is unique to some degree. Great movie!
8 1/2 remade. Goes through the artistic and heart crisis of Fosse and naturally, given its influences, repeats many of the same themes of 8 1/2. Its a noble movie, but cannot live up to or surpass the genius of 8 1/2 and soon enough, it gets repititive a little on saying the same things and trying to make up with it on inspired filmmaking. 8 1/2 is inspired filmmaking at its best and All That Jazz loses its battle because it doesn't push its story deeper instead.
~rougerum
Quote from: The Gold Trumpet8 1/2 remade.
maybe an american 8 1/2?
anyway i liked it
As usual, we disagree. Yes, it has an 8 1/2 element to it, but it goes a lot deeper than Fellini ever did. I always thought the conclusion of 8 1/2 -- and I'm saying this feeling it's probably one of the 3 best I've ever seen -- was pretty weak. Watching All That Jazz again on DVD last night dispelled any reservations I ever had. The thing is a masterpiece and stands on its own. It was 20 years ahead of its time. It's influenced everything from David Fincher's videos to the movie of Chicago. It also holds its own against 2 other masterpieces from 1979 -- Apocalypse Now and Manhattan.
How'd you think the ending was weak? In my mind, the intention was to be weak, but a cop out ending like Adaptation that only spoke for author not being able to actually write a purposeful ending because of his own confusion. The ending to All That Jazz, a 10 minute or so variety program of song and dance celebrating the man's death was just a repeat of "Yea, he's going to die" being the repeated message in the lyrics and symbolism of the dance. A musical moment (dated in its 70s bonanza of fashion) that ended, punctually enough, with him going to the great beyond and dying. 8 1/2 was of pure ambiguilty in giving thought to how the artist's fate would turn out even as life was crumbling; All That Jazz was just a glitzy farewell to his life.
~rougerum
I didn't like Adaptation, so I won't bother with it. I thought the finale of All That Jazz was jaw-droppingly brilliant. Yeah, a song and dance celebrating his death. Rock on! That's so far beyond comprehension -- so far beyond bad taste that it defies anything you could throw at it. Having Ben Vereen singing the Everley Brothers and changing the lyrics to reflect Gideon's (Fosse's) situation is flat out brilliant. Fosse was creating a song and dance out of his own death! 8 1/2 ended with Guido rediscovering his inspiration. It had a whimsical ending. The only connection the 2 films have is that they're both about male artists dealing with their sexuality and art in a time of crisis. They don't look alike or feel alike. A more reasonable juxtaposition might be Woody Allen's Stardust Memories which even imitated the basic look of 8 1/2. Jazz is the real deal.
I wasn't asking if you liked Adaptation or not, but Adaptation and 8 1/2 had similiar endings. You may have seen a whimsical ending of Guido rediscovering his own inspiration, but I saw an ending purely on ambiguilty of Guido trying to hide from all his real life pressures and creating something out of fantasy and out of the fantastic that was maybe soothing for him in thought at that given moment of distress, but wasn't going to solve any problems. The question brought up in the movie, during when all his problems seemed to hit him hard, that was he going to change and was his airy promises and sorrow for his wife true? Or were they as hollow and stylistic as the misconceived stories he was harboring though out the movie that essentially was crap.
Your assessment of the ending for All That Jazz is just a hyped of way of saying "I love it!" without really explaining why.
~rougerum
That was Guido's solution to everything: escape into imagination. Only there could he make things right. Only there could his wife forgive and accept him for who he was -- though in real life she must have because he and Messina stayed together. But ultimately, for all its style and structure 8 1/2 is really pretty shallow. It deals with Fellini's life, but offers little or no conclusions regarding the episodes. It's about a big time director undergoing a crisis, not much more.
All That Jazz was about a man who treats everybody and everything like shit except his work. The episodes add up to portray a man who is completely unrepentant about his life. Fosse made it nearly a decade before his real death and was straight up saying at the time that he was on the path to destruction and didn't care. He was going to smoke, drink, fuck and work himself into the ground regardless of who he hurt in the process. It's a much more naked and revealing film. It's dealing with a far more interesting subject -- mortality in relation to a man's work. He was right. His work has lived on.
The ending was brilliant because of its audacity. Fosse was interpreting his death through his work in both choreography and film. He was predating himself. He was showing his girlfriend moving on. His wife left with his legacy. His daughter awkwardly growing up with budding sexuality. He was showing catastrophe as celebration. Joe needed the biggest fuck of all -- death. That's what Jessica Lange was. She was the most beautiful, the sexiest bitch he could imagine. The whole film is a flirtation with her beauty. He finally gives in at the end. And the whole thing is done without an ounce of sentimentailty. Gideon, dispite being a brilliant artist and being loved by many, is nothing more than another corpse in a body bag at the end.
The reason I do accept 8 1/2 as shallow but with more depth than All That Jazz is because of the context to how All That Jazz is shown, a context that makes All That Jazz inferior drama. The ending, as cute as the idea may be, is reptitive and long winded when it didn't need to be. The kid and girlfriend coming into their own song and dance only makes things heavier as they spell out his problems and weaknesses. Its gimme drama without much ambiguilty. An idea destroyed by how blunt everything is seen in the career of an artist, a man who is suppose to work with blurring the edges. All That Jazz never achieves a perfection of identifying the problem without spelling out.
Fellini's great success is that he works the film in the superficial because it is the identity of the problem of the filmmaker. He achieves the fantastic in dramatizing the pressure felt by the modern day artist without trying to punctuate much of anything. A film by Fellini later in life, Satyricon, does work with superficiality without much else and feels like a work done by Guido in his daze. 8 1/2, though, speaks about superficiality in great depth.
~rougerum
Your response makes no rational sense. Jazz doesn't work because it's deep, but without ambiguity -- whereas 8 1/8 is great because it's superficial, but ambiguous? That's plain dumb.
I'd say the only person who would disavow this film's accuracy and make comments as you have would be a critic, not an actual artist. Considering that you use a quote from a critic as your signature, not an artist, that makes perfect sense. You just don't get it.
As I said, I'd probably rank 8 1/2 as #3 of my all-time favorites. But I'd damn-well include Jazz in my top 10. Even Kubrick was once quoted as suggesting Jazz might be the best film ever made.
bought it yesterday -- after watching it again i went out and blind bought some knee high leather boots -- my toes are twinking as we speak.
My dad has the soundtrack LP and I've always been intrigued by the pictures on the back. I just requested it from the library, which has the DVD on order.
NYC- when you learn to separate exactly what I said from your own beliefs on All That Jazz, get back to me. I'm questioning All That Jazz's dramatic accomplishment and speaking of 8 1/2 as superficiality in only what the film is dealing with subject wise and saying that the dramatic depth is the film's achievement to dramatize the condition of the artist in modern times.
And also, being a long time reader on Kubrick, tell me where you got that quote. I likely would have come across it one time or another in all my books about him.
~rougerum
Can't recall where I saw the quote. It was made somewhere in the early '80s. Somebody asked him what he thought might be the best film and he replied like: I don't know...All That Jazz. He wasn't saying it like it was some dogmatic statement, but a toss away. I'm certain of it. I'm not going to go digging though everything. But he's also been quoted as saying that about The Godfather. I wouldn't put much stock in it one way or another. It was a way of making a point.
But I think your argument is really about nothing more than semantics. Jazz received 9 Oscar nominations and won the Palme d'Or at Cannes. You can argue all you like, but I don't think you have much on your side except your opinion.
I don't think 8 1/2 had anything to do with "modern times." I don't think it was about the times at all. That was La Dolce Vita. I think 8 1/2 was about him. Pure and simple. Just as All That Jazz was about Fosse, pure and simple. You can try to apply more if you'd like, but it's not inherent to the text.
Quote from: mutinycoYou can argue all you like, but I don't think you have much on your side except your opinion.
What the fuck else should one have? Relying on public opinion explains nothing. It just says what they think and can always be discredited with how obvious "bad" movies were given approval by them.
Quote from: mutinycoI don't think 8 1/2 had anything to do with "modern times." I don't think it was about the times at all.
ever hear of the idea that you can explain something universal when only talking about something in particular? That you can focus on the trials of one situation and it can be understood and felt to relating to a feeling for various other things? When I say 8 1/2 is about modern man, I say that the pressure felt by Guido can be understood by others and applied to their own situations even if mostly different. Social commentary or wide reaching stories don't have to be directly about a situation at all to be felt on that level.
~rougerum
It's still something you're applying to the material. You could say the same thing abour PDL. But PTA is straight up in saying he had absolutely no agenda whatsoever. But if you're going to pursue that argument it could probably be made toward every movie ever made in some way. But if you must, you must -- Jazz is about modern man's path toward self-destruction as an extention of his flirtation with the greatest fuck of all. How he continuously seeks pleasure over enlightenment and how he mistakes doing great work with being great, no matter what it does to those around him.
All That Jazz is not 8 1/2 in the slightest. I've watched it 3 times since I bought the DVD yesterday, and each time I'm more astonished at this film. The only reason I'm even thinking of 8 1/2 is because of you. It's a totally different film about a totally different subject. I think it has more in common with Dr. Strangelove than 8 1/2.
All you have is your opinion. But you've backed it up with nothing. This film is as conceptually and technically influential as anything made in the past quarter century, whether people are aware of it or not. It basically defined what would be done on MTV and was light years ahead of Scorsese in terms of cutting and music. In fact, the very use of cutting in relation to dance IS FOSSE. He was a choreographer onstage, but understood that for film different rules applied. He wasn't Astaire, who refused to cut. He understood that movies are about rhythm.
Your argument seems to be based upon the opinion that you like 8 1/2 better, so this is lousy. I'm saying 8 1/2 is better, but this is a masterpiece of near quality. There are few films that bear an artist's soul as this one does.
Quote from: mutinyco
Your argument seems to be based upon the opinion that you like 8 1/2 better, so this is lousy. I'm saying 8 1/2 is better, but this is a masterpiece of near quality. There are few films that bear an artist's soul as this one does.
....and....all-that-jazz..da-da-da-done!
Even if PTA had no agenda with PDL, who is he to say how other people will interpret his film? It doesn't matter what his intentions are because, really, in the terms of the open work, PDL isn't even his film anymore. It belongs to everyone and can be arranged into different meanings as people identify with the film in different ways. That just doesn't lead it to meaning anything and everything, but given the quality of an argument to it meaning something that will be an extension of the film, it can mean more and definitely does to other people. The quality of the argument in saying how it means more is what is crucial.
And to speak on Fosse for his contributation to dance in cinema. His accomplishment is not as grand standing as you think. Gene Kelly, who pushed the musical further, introduced dance on screen that used editing, moving cameras and a different style of dance that was to be cinematic. It can be seen as a connecting thread between Astaire and Fosse given the traditionism of dance in Kelly even if different from Astaire. But, yes, with his infusion of editing and cutting, Fosse steered the train to the soul less place it is in now with dance half assed and cute editing trying to make up for that half assing. Kelly, who kept dance in place, best understood it.
And why does everyone say my arguments are crap or whatever because I back them up with nothing? If I do this, can't you at least get specific on how before being courteous enough to throw start throwing mud at me?
The relation to 8 1/2 is the simple story of seeing the artist brought down by a life crisis and trying to understand his greater role in what dominates his life, art. Simple details of what they exactly do and what happening to them is different, but the general feeling is similiar in what they represent and what their higher problem is. If All That Jazz is different because it goes into a full musical where only Fellini's camera movements suggest a musical could be made, then it is differences on the technical and structural level. The higher aim though is near similiar.
~rougerum
I like Roy Schreider.
We slam you because you take a holy attitude without offering anything on the table. They're not similar films. When I first saw Jazz years ago I thought there was a passing similarity. Having seen both mulptiple times they're totally different films with different aims. One is about a mid-life crisis the other one is about death.
I wasn't making an argument as to who was a better filmmaker/choreographer, so much as I was showing which style is more relevant today. Fosse has had more impact on modern cutting and camera placement. Period. I'm not taking anything away from Gene Kelley. He was great at what he did. So was Fosse. In fact, Fosse's work, done in a purely analog manner, pretty much holds its own against modern digital editing.
Once again, I believe your attitude on Jazz, and film in general, is influenced by a critic's POV. I have no reason to believe you're an artist or understand the mindset of an artist and his process. You may be well-read, but your conclusions aren't well established. Your observations are of an outsider looking in, rather than an insider looking outward.
And as for PTA, if you're applying his work to various social issues and observations, then you're doing so outside of the text. Most art is generalized enough that you can juxtapose it to larger ideas. The French are notorious for this. But unless you can find intent within the text of the art or unless it takes on the form of a social symbol based on the times, your ideas are applications. They're not inherent.
Now you are to saying I have a "Holy" attitude towards without offering anything on the table. Not much of a difference between what you said last time and now.
Jazz isn't just about death. It is about a crisis of the artist that results in his death. What happens in the in between can most definitely be brought to similarity with 8 1/2 in that the artist knows his life is going to end and is trying to make ammends with with his loved ones and trying to realize the importance in his own life as his art was cluttering it. With 8 1/2, it can also be seen as an end for Guido's life in ways and trying to make ammends because his marriage is ending, the one relationship dominant through the entire movie and Guido is trying to come to realization of understanding her importance to him in the clutter of his art. He also is trying to make peace with his all friends and comrades before his behavior towards them drives them away from him.
Again, how does the insight of an artist lend further into the quality of a film than a critic's? Why is it so black and white and not judged upon by each individual and their own experience and intelligence? What happens when a person is/was a critic and was/is a filmmaker also? I don't mind being called of coming from the critic's point of view. I have happy foundations there. I do mind general judgements saying who I am and what I can't do and so far.
I agree Punch-Drunk Love seems slim in contending itself to social issues, but this is one film. On the other hand, I think it is a very valuable film in extending itself to other life experiences that, detail wise, may be completely different. Reason why I say this is inherent because the film is a character study of one man, a man other people may identify with and find own personal reasons of love or hate for. That exercises use of the term "an open work" and extending the narrative to points where it is limitless and beyond the creators' own control.
~rougerum
You asked why and I gave you an answer. Instead of stopping to ponder what I said you got defensive and tried to make more points. That's my point. You proved it.
Gideon isn't making ammends with anybody. Anything he means takes place in his fantasies. Even then, taking to Jessica Lange's death, he admits it's mostly bullshit. He's just an unrepentant sleaze.
Jazz is so modern in its concept of filmmaking that it could be released today and be relevant. You seem to think I'm knocking 8 1/2. Read what I've said. I'm simply supporting this masterpiece. It's by an artist about an artist. That's why a critic isn't going to get it the same way an artist would. That can be said of any art -- a movie by blacks about blacks will ultimately have a different resonance with blacks than whites or Asians. And so on. It doesn't mean you can't relate. You're just an outsider looking in.
Quote from: mutinycoAnything he means takes place in his fantasies. Even then, taking to Jessica Lange's death, he admits it's mostly bullshit. He's just an unrepentant sleaze.
Isn't that a pretty good summing up the main themes in 8 1/2? Guido, an artist who is completely unapologetic for his adultery, is pressured into situations that may see him changing but the only change shown is through his fantasies which really could mean nothing at all. I don't think you're knocking 8 1/2 really that much and don't care if you are. I'm just trying to say both films are similiar and All That Jazz is weaker.
And get off your two dollar identification of this situation as critic/artist. I said I liked being called from that because it deals with my foundations. It doesn't say who I am or not. Just deal the situation as "how you see it." and "how I see it." You have no idea what I do now or what I have done. And to disprove your theory anyways, I'm sure out there somewhere there is an artist who actually does see this thing from my point of view.
~rougerum
As Time magazine said about Fosse in its review of "Big Deal," his last Broadway musical, "Fosse is an original."
He won an Oscar, a Tony and an Emmy, all in the same year.
He directed five films, three of which were nominated for Best Director and Best Picture. He won Best Director for "Cabaret," beating out Coppola for "The Godfather."
Very few people master two completely different mediums, film and Broadway. Fosse mastered the arts of choreography, stage direction and filmmaking. Think about it. Who else has mastered all of these disciplines, winning the top awards in each field? Only Fosse.
"All That Jazz" certainly influenced MTV, Adrian Lyne and all that. "Cabaret" was hugely influential, too.
Fosse was a genius, but even geniuses have their fonts of inspiration. In his case, it was Fellini. "Sweet Charity" was an Americanization of Fellini's "Nights of Cabiria." "Juliet of the Spirits" and "Spirits of the Dead" influenced Fosse's work, along with "81/2." In fact, Fosse used Fellini's cinematographer, Giuseppe Rotunno, to shoot "All That Jazz."
What's cool about "All That Jazz" is that Fosse doesn't glorify his alter ego, in fact, Joe Gideon comes off as a highly flawed (to put it mildly) protagonist. There is as much self-loathing in the film as there is self-grandeur.
Thank you.
I would just like to point out yet again that Lenny is a brilliant piece of cinema.
I will soon see ATJ.
Quote from: SoNowThenI would just like to point out yet again that Lenny is a brilliant piece of cinema..
fuck ATJ, i havn't seen it so i can say that. i can't see it being better than LENNY. i just saw that like 3 times this week, shit, damn, that's sum great biopic ish. dusty was really riskin it back in the day. now u couldn't tell by lookin at him, but he had sum balls.
All three films: Cabaret, Lenny, and All That Jazz are as good as anything made during the 1970s.
Quote from: PQuote from: SoNowThenI would just like to point out yet again that Lenny is a brilliant piece of cinema..
fuck ATJ, i havn't seen it so i can say that. i can't see it being better than LENNY. i just saw that like 3 times this week, shit, damn, that's sum great biopic ish. dusty was really riskin it back in the day. now u couldn't tell by lookin at him, but he had sum balls.
So true. Great fucking movie.
Sorry to interrupt the ATJ thread (though it's become more like a Fosse thread), but I gotta just say: the climax scene of Lenny, the stand-up routine with the insanely wide-shot and no cutting... SO FUCKING GREAT. SO GREAT. How great? FUCKING GREAT!! I kept thinking "is he holding this... he's gonna cut, no, he's holding it... motherfucking amazing... it's locked off...". I'm perverse like that. That shot, and the one in AutoFocus where Schrader stays on Dafoe in that crazy handheld... I think my favorite two climax shots in films.
Well, in non-xxx films anyway...
Go see All That Jazz already!!!
Quote from: mutinycoAll three films: Cabaret, Lenny, and All That Jazz are as good as anything made during the 1970s.
Haven't seen All that Jazz, but just in the last month I saw Cabaret (I own it now) and Lenny on the big screen (but on DVD)...both fucking amazing, I'm a new Fosse fan...
I foyu tell me this movie is on your top 10, I know it's gonna be interesting...Even if you have this childish "fuck Martin Scorsese" thing going on, we seem to have the same movies on our top of mind: Apocalypse Now, 2001, 8 1/2 .......
Don't get started with MS again...
I watched the film today with no expectations. ATJ is a masterfully unflinching portrait of Joe Gideon. The ending song may have been a tad overlong, but it reflects to some degree Gideon's self-absorption. I don't mean this in the selfish sense, but in the sense that he lives and breathes dancing, right until the end. Instead of having the glitzy musical number fade out, Fosse unexpectedly cuts to the cold reality of his body being zipped up. If he hadn't done that, the honesty about Gideon portrayed in the rest of the film would have been compromised.
all that jizz.
Quote from: Pall that jizz.
The GDIDM Story.
Quote from: RaviThe ending song may have been a tad overlong, but it reflects to some degree Gideon's self-absorption. I don't mean this in the selfish sense, but in the sense that he lives and breathes dancing, right until the end.
rationalization.
~rougerum
Quote from: The Gold TrumpetQuote from: RaviThe ending song may have been a tad overlong, but it reflects to some degree Gideon's self-absorption. I don't mean this in the selfish sense, but in the sense that he lives and breathes dancing, right until the end.
rationalization.
~rougerum
Of what? The length of the number? Yeah, it was a little tiresome, but it didn't ruin the film.
You rationalized an over long number into a mind of thought that was fitting for the film. Me calling it a "rationalization" was saying you were looking for excuses to validify the length. I don't think the film had to produce an extra long finale in order to speak for the man's obcession with the musical and his work. I didn't say just this made the film bad. I hardly ever mention it being just a bad film. I do believe though in what it is trying to be and much to the unhappiness of some here, it is 8 1/2 remade but not as good as 8 1/2. Its admirable without succeeding at its intentions.
~rougerum
I think you're the one who's rationalizing. History and general opinion are not in your favor. The only time I related Jazz to 8 1/2 was the first time I saw it -- and that was superficial based on the general concept. It's a different film that succeeds on its own merits. Knocking Jazz because you like 8 1/2 better (which I don't disagree with) is like knocking Once Upon a Time in America because you like The Godfather. Get over it already.
What do you mean get over it already? My last post was not a continuation of just repeated argument, but handling another argument from someone else. For me to explain my position, I had to repeat a portion of my own opinion and identify people here disagree with it. People like you. Thats fine. I don't mind that but you are keeping on the general arguments of our argument about this movie just because I mentioned something you disagreed about. Something you already knew and was explained to death. You're the one that really needs to get over it. Just consider the argument dead and final between us.
~rougerum
mutinyco wrote:QuoteKnocking Jazz because you like 8 1/2 better (which I don't disagree with) is like knocking Once Upon a Time in America because you like The Godfather. Get over it already.
Well, gosh, not to get off on a tangent here, but, in many ways, I enjoy Once Upon a Time in America far moreso than The Godfather.
I'm not saying Once Upon a Time in America is a better film. Who the hell am I to say that?
But, for me, it's a far more shattering and satisfying cinematic experience, one that so few people have truly gotten to see over the years, due to the butcherings in the editing room.
Quote from: SoNowThenQuote from: PQuote from: SoNowThenI would just like to point out yet again that Lenny is a brilliant piece of cinema..
fuck ATJ, i havn't seen it so i can say that. i can't see it being better than LENNY. i just saw that like 3 times this week, shit, damn, that's sum great biopic ish. dusty was really riskin it back in the day. now u couldn't tell by lookin at him, but he had sum balls.
So true. Great fucking movie.
Sorry to interrupt the ATJ thread (though it's become more like a Fosse thread), but I gotta just say: the climax scene of Lenny, the stand-up routine with the insanely wide-shot and no cutting... SO FUCKING GREAT. SO GREAT. How great? FUCKING GREAT!! I kept thinking "is he holding this... he's gonna cut, no, he's holding it... motherfucking amazing... it's locked off...". I'm perverse like that. That shot, and the one in AutoFocus where Schrader stays on Dafoe in that crazy handheld... I think my favorite two climax shots in films.
Well, in non-xxx films anyway...
well, i saw lenny late last night and i was completely blown away of hoffman's performance. especially the climax scene everybody's talking about.
(https://xixax.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fw1.422.telia.com%2F%7Eu42243560%2Flenny.JPG&hash=110ec4495633fb275fff65f69c11adac111e579f)
it's so tragic and real and you just want it to end. here's what it says at imdb:
"The one take master shot scene of Lenny doing his act in a raincoat near the end of the film came from an actual tape recorded from a show he did that was sent to Dustin Hoffman by a student who saw the show. Lenny's exact words in the scene on stage are word for word from the tape of his show."this is why hoffman is one of the most original actors.
Quote from: mogwaiwell, i saw lenny late last night and i was completely blown away of hoffman's performance. especially the climax scene everybody's talking about... this is why hoffman is one of the most original actors.
One of the most inexcusably forgotten films of the 70s and Hoffman's best performance. If he is to be remembered for a role, it should be this one, despite how good he was in The Graduate or Midnight Cowboy or Rain Man or
All the President's Men or Kramer vs. Kramer or Tootsie or Marathon Man or Papillon or Dick Tracy or basically any other movie that people remember him for.Thanks for reminding me of this. I'm going to grab the DVD today.