Xixax Film Forum

Film Discussion => The Small Screen => Topic started by: PinkTeeth on August 09, 2021, 04:49:22 PM

Title: The White Lotus
Post by: PinkTeeth on August 09, 2021, 04:49:22 PM


WOW! This is great!
I think the last episode is this weekend... really hoping they stick the landing, but so far I think this has been phenomenal.
Kudos to Mike White and the whole cast, can't say enough good about it!
Title: Re: The White Lotus
Post by: WorldForgot on August 09, 2021, 05:01:01 PM
I'm hoping this can develop into an anthology style where every season we meet new guests
Spoiler: ShowHide
(and staff?)


Something I admire about Mike White's work is its sincerity. This show iz in line with Enlightened (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlightened_(TV_series)) in that the characters - though heightened - have reached boiling points that don't feel contrived. When they spill over onto the flame it breaks your heart as much as it may nudge you toward laughing. This isn't quite pity - it's wholeness of vice and insecurity.
Title: Re: The White Lotus
Post by: wilberfan on August 09, 2021, 05:08:42 PM
Probably my favorite Sunday Night viewing at the moment. Well cast (particularly Jennifer Coolidge).  Scoring is superb. 
Title: Re: The White Lotus
Post by: WorldForgot on August 09, 2021, 05:58:27 PM
For me, Fred Hechinger has seized the center of The Woman in the Window, Fear Street 1994, & The White Lotus. He gets at an anxiety that feels true to those years when your life is not your own.
Title: Re: The White Lotus
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 10, 2021, 01:48:28 AM
Just watched the first ep, and it was predictably great. Alexandra Daddario is surprisingly effective as the audience surrogate. I didn't even recognize her for a while. She just always has this look like she's accurately judging everything around her.

And yes, Fred Hechinger is perfect in this.
Title: Re: The White Lotus
Post by: Reel on August 10, 2021, 06:53:47 AM
Yeah, I couldn't place where I knew Daddario from in the first few eps ( she was Woody Harrelson's mistress in True Detective ) she has a really subtle performance in this. I find her eyes haunting
Title: Re: The White Lotus
Post by: Drenk on August 10, 2021, 07:15:28 AM
I like Enlightened.

I couldn't stand the first episode of this.

I swear I like things.  :yabbse-grin:
Title: Re: The White Lotus
Post by: Reel on August 10, 2021, 07:49:17 AM
I wasn't completely in after the first ep, it took me a couple weeks to follow up on it. There's a lot of setup for a story it seems like we've seen a billion times littered with rich, unlikable characters. You gotta settle in to it a bit, like Enlightened
Title: Re: The White Lotus
Post by: Drenk on August 10, 2021, 07:55:53 AM
I mostly couldn't stand the way it felt like a filmed outline. The scenes didn't feel like scenes. It was plot delivery upon plot delivery, setting up characters in the most heavy handed way possible. It barely cared to film the hotel. No sense of space.

A perfectly crafted series to watch braindead after work.

I'm sure it gets better. And I've been waiting for a new Mike White show. So I'll keep watching.
Title: Re: The White Lotus
Post by: WorldForgot on August 10, 2021, 09:22:09 AM
Quote from: Drenk on August 10, 2021, 07:55:53 AM
It was plot delivery upon plot delivery, setting up characters in the most heavy handed way possible.

A perfectly crafted series to watch braindead after work.

My impression of its script iz that there's a dynamic something like the combination of this -- maybe after ep 1 you'll find this more to be the case, but I think there's less "plot" and more "bits." Like character work and dialogue usurps "events." Although plenty of stuff happens it's nested in moments that the characters aren't lucid enough to not take for granted. This creates a situation where like Paula is a developed character that actually doesn't have to have her own scene articulating the silence for you to understand her internal crisis.

Sort of agree about the "sense of space," but the show feels unconcerned with that. There's the spa, the shore and its sea, the rooms and its chambered hormones, a liminal lobby, Armond's office. A poolside bar, etc, but I don't need to know the geography because I understand the function. In this way it hits me the way a stageplay might, without sacrificing the vistas of its location or the kinetic potential of parallel action.
Title: Re: The White Lotus
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 10, 2021, 11:32:14 AM
Couldn't help myself and binged a few more episodes. I know a lot of this show seems super heightened and on the nose, but I think it's actually doing a lot of subtle work. Linda Holmes had a good insight about this. Most characters have an internal story where they're sympathetic and an external story where their effect on others is kind of monstrous. Daddario's character and the masseuse are pretty close to purely sympathetic, but they're still sort of complicit.

Shane and Olivia are on the other end for me – nothing redeeming about them so far. I'm prepared to be surprised though.

I don't know. You just rarely see something that's such a complex stew of empathy. You root for Paula in one scene, then she's being deeply cruel to her friend's brother in the next scene. (And the fact that she's friends with Olivia at all is an indictment in itself.) Armond's introduction makes him look pretty awful, but by the end of the first ep he has enormous sympathy for the pregnant employee. Even characters who are outrageously mean have flashes of good-heartedness as their humanity forces its way to the surface, if only for a moment.
Title: Re: The White Lotus
Post by: wilberfan on August 10, 2021, 04:44:53 PM
HBO just ordered Season 2 (https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/tv/story/2021-08-10/the-white-lotus-season-2-hbo)
Title: Re: The White Lotus
Post by: WorldForgot on August 10, 2021, 05:08:24 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgLvyFcRqPc

Hell to the yeah
Title: Re: The White Lotus
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 10, 2021, 06:40:34 PM
I forgot to talk about the music! Amazing stuff. Gets you in the right mindset. The less melodic, more percussive scoring is reminiscent of Punch-Drunk Love, fittingly.
Title: Re: The White Lotus
Post by: WorldForgot on August 10, 2021, 07:11:07 PM
This dude's a great composer. He was instrumental to the entire atmosphere for Utopia.  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZd2XGjnhjo) You'll notice similar motifs linked here to the White Lotus score.
Title: Re: The White Lotus
Post by: Reel on August 10, 2021, 08:40:04 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on August 10, 2021, 06:40:34 PMThe less melodic, more percussive scoring is reminiscent of Punch-Drunk Love, fittingly.

Ep. 4 had a sequence that brought PDL to mind ( no spoilers )

Title: Re: The White Lotus
Post by: wilberfan on August 10, 2021, 08:56:43 PM
If you meant Ep. 5 (which aired 2 days ago), I had the same thought.  Even described it in those exact terms to a friend of mine.
Title: Re: The White Lotus
Post by: Reel on August 10, 2021, 09:08:16 PM
No, it's in the 2nd half of Ep. 4
Title: Re: The White Lotus
Post by: wilberfan on August 10, 2021, 09:42:25 PM
I'm referring to the scene briefly quoted beginning at 1:38 (Spoiler, obviously):

https://www.hbo.com/video/the-white-lotus/seasons/season-1/episodes/5-the-lotus-eaters/videos/ep-5-inside-the-episode
Title: Re: The White Lotus
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 10, 2021, 11:04:13 PM
I'm caught up now.

Spoiler: ShowHide
That very bad decision somehow made Paula more sympathetic, right? Especially with the final shot. Like, at least she's feeling something. Olivia still comes off like a complete psychopath. I bet she's going to relish tormenting Paula with suspicion, just as Shane has started tormenting Armond. They're kindred spirits for sure.

Meanwhile, Belinda was misreading the room so badly all episode, pushing her business proposal while Tanya was clearly not in a place to process all of that. (Yes I have imdb open to remember these names.) In fact it seems a bit unrealistic that someone with Belinda's customer service experience was suddenly so misperceptive. She seems excited more than opportunistic, but still, not great.

So Rachel continues to hold a strong lead for most sympathetic. It's heartbreaking to watch someone in the middle of a full-blown existential crisis. I think she'll come out of it with a stronger sense of identiy though.

All the Molly Shannon stuff, especially in ep 5, is deliciously chilling. The way she says "be happy, Rachel" as a stone cold threat.

This Jennifer Coolidge performance is really something. There's just nothing else like it. Usually she's cast as some sort of grotesque oddity. But she and Mike White put so much humanity in this role.

Any predictions for who dies? I actually haven't thought about it since episode one. Surely not Rachel. Could be Roger Linus with his persistent cough, but that's probably a red herring. My prediction: Olivia drowns Paula in the ocean. I know, dark. But I wouldn't be surprised.

My real prediction: Mark's redemption arc concludes with him dying in a scuba accident. His story has all the right ingredients.
Title: Re: The White Lotus
Post by: Reel on August 11, 2021, 09:16:49 AM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on August 10, 2021, 11:04:13 PM
Spoiler: ShowHide

My real prediction: Mark's redemption arc concludes with him dying in a scuba accident. His story has all the right ingredients.
Quote


Spoiler: ShowHide
 Good catch! Watching the last ep, I did find it unusual that he went canoeing with those guys on a whim, without really having any prep. You'd assume they'd at least have a life preserver for him but he hasn't learned how to steer a boat at any point in the show, has he?

Tanya seems to be the most on the brink of death in her demeanor but I think that'd be too predictable.
Title: Re: The White Lotus
Post by: wilberfan on August 11, 2021, 04:27:19 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on August 10, 2021, 11:04:13 PM
Spoiler: ShowHide
 Any predictions for who dies? I actually haven't thought about it since episode one.


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 Wasn't it established in the first few minutes of Episode 1 that it was Rachel??  Shane is sitting in the airport with a thousand yard stare, and the old lady across from him is politely asking about his trip.  Doesn't he say "My wife died"?
Title: Re: The White Lotus
Post by: WorldForgot on August 11, 2021, 04:36:47 PM
Spoiler: ShowHide

He doesn't outright say so. He asks the couple to stfu when they ask how his Honeymoon went - which creates the ominous red herring of, The Body Is Being Loaded Onto His Flight + his Honeymoon went sour.

And at first my prediction was Mark, for the irony of him escaping cancer only to drown, or something like that, but I like how Paula would fit thematically with Olivia's "wokeness" revealed as performative as well as the themes of colonization.
Title: Re: The White Lotus
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 11, 2021, 04:42:04 PM
Spoiler: ShowHide
My post didn't get saved with the transfer, but I'll re-state that Paula is also my current prediction. We're getting heavy investment in that character in the back end, so her death would be the maximum tragedy I think. Mark is probably a red herring, despite how common scuba accidents are.
Title: Re: The White Lotus
Post by: PinkTeeth on August 11, 2021, 04:51:09 PM
Quote from: wilberfan on August 11, 2021, 04:27:19 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on August 10, 2021, 11:04:13 PM
Spoiler: ShowHide
 Any predictions for who dies? I actually haven't thought about it since episode one.


Spoiler: ShowHide
 Wasn't it established in the first few minutes of Episode 1 that it was Rachel??  Shane is sitting in the airport with a thousand yard stare, and the old lady across from him is politely asking about his trip.  Doesn't he say "My wife died"?


Feels like that's just a setup though... my money's on next week's ep starting with this scene...
And I think the murder will take place in Armond's office, as the baby was born in there...
And maybe it'll be Nicole, cuz how could you not want to write about the death of a CEO right now...

My only dislikes have been everything about the bong... Who's forgets they brought a bong, and who puts a bong in a purse in the first place... and "water-bong"? C'mon... Pipe would have worked fine... maybe the bong will be the murder weapon? ...Stupid.
Title: Re: The White Lotus
Post by: WorldForgot on August 11, 2021, 05:13:26 PM
And it like had water in it when it was stowed?? They hit it right away. It's technically a bubbler and their characters would know that + to stow it without the bowl in.

Attachment Theory : The Series

Spoiler: ShowHide
And in the poster we see the characters wearing their outfits from the opening scene; doesn't Nicole's costume resemble a cartoonish prison uniform? Could just be in jest, that decision, and not foreshadowing. Makes me laugh though. Doing a rewatch now.


(https://i.redd.it/hfarqn9jq4f71.png)

Mike White's profile from his stint on Survivor:
Spoiler: ShowHide
Age: 47
Hometown: San Diego
Current residence: Los Angeles
Occupation: Filmmaker
Hobbies: Travel, wine enthusiast, and water sports.
Pet peeves: I'm impatient with bigots.
Three words to describe you:
Curious/funny, dynamic, and imaginative.
What's your personal claim to fame?
I've accomplished a lot in my career and was able to make a lot of movies.
Who or what is your inspiration in life?
I think of George Plimpton, a great writer who also wanted to experience the things he was writing about. He was fearless, inquisitive and enlightened.
If you could have three things on the island what would they be and why?
An eye mask to sleep. A good book; something fat. A SeaBob for the ocean!
Which Survivor contestant are you most like?
Jonathan Penner was a good storyteller and Rob from Amazon had a good read on people.
What's your reason for being on Survivor?
My primary motivation is playing the game. I've always, always wanted to play and see how I would do. Secondary is the absurd challenge of it all.
Why do you think you'll "survive" Survivor?
I have the desire. I know the game. I am a student of human psychology, like what people say and how they behave.
Title: Re: The White Lotus
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 11, 2021, 07:00:55 PM
Mike White is just the best.

That chart is pretty good, probably as close as you can get. The issue is you need more Chaotic Neutral spots.

Side note, anyone else getting strong Solondz vibes from most of these characters?

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I think Paula "pulling out the pharmacy" as WorldForgot put it was mostly played for the absurdity – and the further they leaned into that, the more effective it was. I mean it's immediately followed by fully surreal ASMR scene.
Title: Re: The White Lotus
Post by: Reel on August 11, 2021, 10:35:04 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on August 11, 2021, 07:00:55 PMSide note, anyone else getting strong Solondz vibes from most of these characters?

Yeah, I do from a lot of his characters in the way they always sidestep your assumptions of the kind of person they are and never conveniently fit into the mold of a good or bad person. Solondz is a Mike White fan.
Title: Re: The White Lotus
Post by: wilberfan on August 15, 2021, 10:01:17 PM
Is it just me, or is this title card for Zahn a bit of a wink at us?
Title: Re: The White Lotus
Post by: WorldForgot on August 15, 2021, 10:03:12 PM
Definitely.

My 2nd favorite part of this show was whinging about how White its complaints were. First was how good its script iz.
Title: Re: The White Lotus
Post by: wilberfan on August 15, 2021, 10:59:26 PM
"Totally worth it!"

Spoiler: ShowHide
(https://i.ibb.co/jDQ2Fcg/armond.png)
Title: Re: The White Lotus
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 16, 2021, 03:31:57 AM
Well... that felt just about right.

Spoiler: ShowHide
Armond arguably went out in a blaze of glory (although I wouldn't characterize it that way). The real tragedy is Rachel's story. Just... absolutely soul-crushing. And the thing is, Shane is dumb enough and willingly oblivious enough that he'll never have to worry that he's actually tormenting her.

I did not anticipate the late-breaking redemption of Olivia. And somehow it was convincing enough to move me.

The Tanya/Belinda goodbye was perfectly chilling. Wow.

I have a hot take, though. Belinda gave her card to Rachel and invited her to reach out. Then she agreed to meet Rachel. Then she let Rachel bare her soul only to shut her down and twist the knife. It's not as if Rachel's pain was trivial. And it's not as if Rachel was excessively needy or imposing on her, really. From Rachel's POV, she was being brave and accepting help from someone who offered it. (And remember that she tried reaching her close family members first.) What Belinda offered in response was a betrayal of trust. Monstrous behavior, in my opinion. In customer service you have to "pretend" to a certain extent, but what Belinda does goes beyond the call of duty into outright deception. I know most people see Belinda as the hero of the show somehow, but her motives here (and even with Tanya, as I've touched on) are worth re-evaluating.

Slightly hotter take: Belinda doesn't know how to set boundaries. She willingly crosses them with Tanya, over and over, only because she has something to gain. There isn't any sort of real friendship there. Note Belinda rolling her eyes after she exits every interaction with Tanya. When Belinda meets with Rachel, there is clearly nothing for her to gain. So I guess she can't be bothered to have even a basic level of human empathy for this clearly suffering person, not out of exhaustion, really — more as a moral statement. Are we supposed to cheer? I certainly didn't.

Okay this is kind of a devil's advocate position, but I'm curious what people think.
Title: Re: The White Lotus
Post by: Reel on August 16, 2021, 10:49:29 AM
I like all your Belinda takes, makes me want to watch again and reassess her character. On the surface, she seems very pure at heart.
Title: Re: The White Lotus
Post by: WorldForgot on August 16, 2021, 12:56:31 PM
Alexandra Daddario's performance in this finale was stellar. And I enjoyed how Olivia/Paula/Quinn's arcs all developed. JB, I do think you're onto something. No small coincidence that they represent opposing angles to what a benefactor's influence would mean for their career or "escape" therein.
Title: Re: The White Lotus
Post by: wilberfan on August 17, 2021, 04:52:27 PM
My take on Belinda was a little different, I guess.   My read on her was always that she was a genuinely compassionate person--so compassionate, in fact, that she relaxed boundaries (especially with Tanya) that she shouldn't have.

A friend of mine and myself both read the dead-eyed Rachel/Belinda meeting as Belinda having been devastated from being dumped by Tanya and in that moment having nothing left for Rachel. (Another example of, perhaps, not setting another boundary?   Belinda should have said, 'I'm sorry, I can't meet with you now...could we schedule another time?' )
Title: Re: The White Lotus
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on August 17, 2021, 06:11:07 PM
LIGHT SPOILERS

That's a good objective reading of it. There's just something in the performance that leads me to read things differently. Mostly it's the way Belinda exits most encounters with disdain and resentment after pretending to be your friend.

I think her personality is being actively corrupted by her job. She's the type of person who would probably have a lot of compassion were that well not being constantly depleted throughout her work week. Almost like she's an introvert pretending to be an extrovert. Clearly there's a mismatch that goes even beyond the wealth inequality and the awfulness of the job itself.

So here's my best guess as to what's really going on. I think she does have a compassionate impulse that activates when she sees someone suffering. But then she's immediately over her head and not equipped to deal with any of it. She offers to help Rachel with no ability to do so.

Belinda begins to help Tanya out of genuine compassion, but that relationship is instantly dysfunctional. Belinda is not equipped to befriend a guest or even remotely interested in doing so. She seems to suffer through every conversation with Tanya, with only brief flashes of genuine interest. It's only the promise of a transaction that makes it tolerable for her.
Title: Re: The White Lotus
Post by: wilberfan on August 17, 2021, 06:12:59 PM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on August 17, 2021, 06:11:07 PM
I think she does have a compassionate impulse that activates when she sees someone suffering. But then she's immediately over her head and not equipped to deal with any of it. She offers to help Rachel with no ability to do so.

I like this...
Title: Re: The White Lotus
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on September 12, 2022, 05:12:50 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXPkbRhSwMU
Title: Re: The White Lotus
Post by: Jeremy Blackman on December 11, 2022, 09:51:46 PM
Still prefer S1, but this season does not disappoint. Some bold choices.
Title: Re: The White Lotus
Post by: WorldForgot on December 11, 2022, 11:12:47 PM
In particular I liked that the arcs were, in a twisted way, more like character 'loops.' And there's a nice sense of playfulness in the info that's withheld from us about the Spiller marriage.