Manderlay - LVT's S

Started by Finn, August 09, 2004, 05:35:19 PM

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Jeremy Blackman

#90
January 28, 2006, 11:24:48 PM
Mindblowing. Probably better than Dogville. And probably the best film of the year.

MILD SPOILERS

I can't imagine Nicole Kidman filling Bryce Dallas Howard's shoes in this role. Howard has a stronger sense of idealism, a more believeable sense of purpose, and an authentic sense of weakness—intellectually, emotionally, and morally. I might almost say it was a mistake not to have used Howard in Dogville. Kidman in comparison has an almost farcical aura, which I suppose worked for that movie, but would not have for this one.

MODERATE SPOILERS

Dogville was mindblowing in more of a narrative and visual sense. This film, having lost that novelty, is mindblowing almost exclusively in a moral sense. In that way, it's a bit different, and perhaps better. It's just as agonizing, but ultimately more challenging. Which is quite a devastating thrill.

EXTREME SPOILERS

This has the same sort of story arc. The same sort of exponentially increasing power. And while at first (like Dogville) it seems mild, it certainly does not disappoint.

MacGuffin

#91
January 29, 2006, 05:52:55 PM
Quote from: pozer on January 26, 2006, 12:10:14 PM
When does my Orange County ass get to see it?

Friday.
"Don't think about making art, just get it done. Let everyone else decide if it's good or bad, whether they love it or hate it. While they are deciding, make even more art." - Andy Warhol


Skeleton FilmWorks

Pozer

#92
January 29, 2006, 06:45:44 PM
Thanks, Mac.  Friday it is.

Pubrick

#93
January 31, 2006, 09:33:29 PM
i keep thinking mac is mod. also i keep thinking JB is black.
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on January 28, 2006, 11:24:48 PM
MILD SPOILERS
MODERATE SPOILERS
EXTREME SPOILERS
there were no spoilers in your review at all. can't wait to see this so you can talk about what the movie meant, instead of just technical stuff about the structure and reactions to the acting or whatever.
under the paving stones.

Jeremy Blackman

#94
February 03, 2006, 02:36:13 AM
I consider them spoilers. I wouldn't want to know those things before seeing the movie.

I don't want to say much until there's more here to respond to, but I will say (as far as meaning goes... umm, SPOILER....) that the film is a warning against unnaturally imposing one's ideas on others.

Also, BIG SPOILER, after reading around a bit, it amazes me how many people have completely misinterpreted the sex scene, especially when its meaning is made clear by the narration and Howard's amazing performance. That, for many reasons, is one of the greatest scenes. (Note: Misinterpretations of that scene often reveal a lot about the misinterpreter.)

Wow. I just saw the trailer. That is really horrible, I hope nobody saw it... it even has the formulaic rapid-fire sex/violence climax and ferociously out-of-context voiceover editing...

godardian

#95
February 03, 2006, 11:12:32 AM
Wow, I am SO stoked to see this film after reading you guys' raves. I think Dogville was my favorite of all von Trier's wonderful films, and the fact that this seems to be another "installment" of Dogville makes me even more eager for it. I think it's coming to Seattle within the next month. . .
""Money doesn't come into it. It never has. I do what I do because it's all that I am." - Morrissey

"Lacan stressed more and more in his work the power and organizing principle of the symbolic, understood as the networks, social, cultural, and linguistic, into which a child is born. These precede the birth of a child, which is why Lacan can say that language is there from before the actual moment of birth. It is there in the social structures which are at play in the family and, of course, in the ideals, goals, and histories of the parents. This world of language can hardly be grasped by the newborn and yet it will act on the whole of the child's existence."

Stay informed on protecting your freedom of speech and civil rights.

Pubrick

#96
February 03, 2006, 11:31:22 AM
Quote from: godardian on February 03, 2006, 11:12:32 AM
and the fact that this seems to be another "installment" of Dogville
what do you mean by installment? the whole trilogy aims to explore variations on the same idea, character, and technique. you sound surprised is all..
under the paving stones.

godardian

#97
February 03, 2006, 12:02:28 PM
Quote from: Pubrick on February 03, 2006, 11:31:22 AM
Quote from: godardian on February 03, 2006, 11:12:32 AM
and the fact that this seems to be another "installment" of Dogville
what do you mean by installment? the whole trilogy aims to explore variations on the same idea, character, and technique. you sound surprised is all..

Well, I guess I didn't realize until recently that it was actually going to have (some of) the same characters and everything. So often, when something is posited as a "trilogy," its connections are in theme/spirit tone (I'm thinking of Bergman's and Antonioni's famed trilogies) rather than actually returning to the same characters.

I didn't word it very well, either. I meant that it will be another installment of the trilogy that Dogville started off, not another installment of Dogville. It sounds to me like these three films will be three episodes in the experience of Grace, and will use those experiences to make some astute observations about the nature of power and hypocrisy (esp. in America and American attitudes?).
""Money doesn't come into it. It never has. I do what I do because it's all that I am." - Morrissey

"Lacan stressed more and more in his work the power and organizing principle of the symbolic, understood as the networks, social, cultural, and linguistic, into which a child is born. These precede the birth of a child, which is why Lacan can say that language is there from before the actual moment of birth. It is there in the social structures which are at play in the family and, of course, in the ideals, goals, and histories of the parents. This world of language can hardly be grasped by the newborn and yet it will act on the whole of the child's existence."

Stay informed on protecting your freedom of speech and civil rights.

Jeremy Blackman

#98
February 03, 2006, 12:37:16 PM
Quote from: godardian on February 03, 2006, 12:02:28 PMIt sounds to me like these three films will be three episodes in the experience of Grace, and will use those experiences to make some astute observations about the nature of power and hypocrisy (esp. in America and American attitudes?).

That seems to be right. One of the differences in Manderlay, though, is that the Thomas Edison character has been combined with the Grace character, and in that way it's more Grace-focused. Grace is not a victim in Manderlay in the same way Thomas Edison was not a victim in Dogville.

Gold Trumpet

#99
February 04, 2006, 06:27:23 AM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on February 03, 2006, 12:37:16 PM
Quote from: godardian on February 03, 2006, 12:02:28 PMIt sounds to me like these three films will be three episodes in the experience of Grace, and will use those experiences to make some astute observations about the nature of power and hypocrisy (esp. in America and American attitudes?).

That seems to be right. One of the differences in Manderlay, though, is that the Thomas Edison character has been combined with the Grace character, and in that way it's more Grace-focused. Grace is not a victim in Manderlay in the same way Thomas Edison was not a victim in Dogville.

I also know another reason to welcome Godardian back: He's a co-conspirator with Jeremy Blackman on taste that is usually the opposite of mine.

I forgot how similar their tastes were. If Godardian is here championing his films then he's more likely to draw JB into the fray with a comment and I'm more likely to get an argument out of him.

modage

#100
February 04, 2006, 10:34:12 AM
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on January 28, 2006, 11:24:48 PM
And probably the best film of the year.
it's only february!  whats it's competition? 

Quote from: godardian on February 03, 2006, 11:12:32 AM
Wow, I am SO stoked to see this film after reading you guys' raves.
well, i HATED it.  it's really just a tedious exercise with none of the life that von trier's other films have had. and it's 49% on rotten tomatoes (only 27% of the critics who matter), so better go in with more reasonable expections.
Christopher Nolan's directive was clear to everyone in the cast and crew: Use CGI only as a last resort.

godardian

#101
February 04, 2006, 12:09:56 PM
Ah. . . the divisiveness of LVT lives on! I saw that Manderlay got an "F" from Owen Glieberman (who I often share my taste with), and modage and Gold Trumpet seem set to flunk it, too. . . . It seems that all of his films get this kind of sharply divided reaction, though (with some critics going so far as to call von Trier "misogynist"), so I'm really looking forward to gauging it for myself.
""Money doesn't come into it. It never has. I do what I do because it's all that I am." - Morrissey

"Lacan stressed more and more in his work the power and organizing principle of the symbolic, understood as the networks, social, cultural, and linguistic, into which a child is born. These precede the birth of a child, which is why Lacan can say that language is there from before the actual moment of birth. It is there in the social structures which are at play in the family and, of course, in the ideals, goals, and histories of the parents. This world of language can hardly be grasped by the newborn and yet it will act on the whole of the child's existence."

Stay informed on protecting your freedom of speech and civil rights.

The Red Vine

#102
February 04, 2006, 05:07:26 PM
I saw this a couple of months ago. I wouldn't say it's bad, but nowhere near as good as "Dogville". I agree with pretty much everything that's been said here, but the ending did go down a road I wasn't expecting (in a good way). Howard was fine, but not as convincing as Kidman. Maybe LVT's style has worn off a bit here. Part of what made "Dogville" so interesting was that we were seeing this new style for the first time. Here it's just more tiresome and a bit stale. But it did leave me looking forward to the third chapter of this trilogy. Although he's gonna have to redeem himself in some ways.
"No, really. Just do it. You have some kind of weird reasons that are okay.">

cron

#103
February 04, 2006, 10:36:37 PM
nah, no spoilers.

here i was complaining that i hadn't been motherfucked in the head by a recent film and i see manderlay today. mysteriously, it reminded me of the time i saw dogville, where my sister and i were left in the kind of shock that, to paraphrase a painter,  makes you think  that the purpose of art really is to make our lives a bit more complicated. sorry for the cheese but i like that phrase.

like jb said, it lacks the novelty of dogville's 'minimalism', which really doesn't matter if you're a sucker for huge zenithal shots like me. anywho, i see manderlay as a much more story focused film . dogville was a film in love with its tricks while respecting the story. it had the balance between style and substance that lotsa people try to find in lotsa films. manderlay is a  more direct and stripped (yes) version of the first part, with a brand new thesis!. less balanced, more well-composed.  at the moment i can't think of any other current director more relevant and sincere than lars. and the art in it...pfff, this film glows.
context, context, context.

Gold Trumpet

#104
February 05, 2006, 02:50:51 AM
Quote from: godardian on February 04, 2006, 12:09:56 PM
Ah. . . the divisiveness of LVT lives on! I saw that Manderlay got an "F" from Owen Glieberman (who I often share my taste with), and modage and Gold Trumpet seem set to flunk it, too. . . . It seems that all of his films get this kind of sharply divided reaction, though (with some critics going so far as to call von Trier "misogynist"), so I'm really looking forward to gauging it for myself.

I'm not about to flunk this film, but having having not liked any Lars Von Trier film I've seen, I'm just playing odds. I actually anticipate his every new film. The ambition of his films keep me coming back with hopeful feelings.
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