Manderlay is the second installment in the USA trilogy for Lars Von Trier. Dogville was U, Manderlay is S and his next film will be A. Apparently Bryce Dallas Howard (Ron Howard's daughter from The Village) will play Grace in this movie instead of Nicole Kidman (although she agreed to do it in press conference interviews).
More info...
http://imdb.com/title/tt0342735/maindetails
Release Dates...
TBA
So far...
Russia 24 June 2005
Denmark 2005
LVT's one of my favorite directors. I loved Dogville the most out of all his movies. Can't wait for this one!
I can't wait for this one either.
I'm excited to see whether or not Bryce Dallas Howard can hang with a director that is hard on his actors.
There are rumours that this time, the floor is the negative of dogville, that is: white floor with black lines.....
My eyes are hurting already.
Jean-Marc Barr on Manderlay:
"In this trilogy, i play the gansters... Now we are shooting the second part, Manderlay, in the same way we shoot Dogville, without scenery. This time, the theme is slavery. The idea is that the white people became themselves slaves of their desire of control. There will be more humour than in the first part, and there will be also some interesting visual effects..."
Director cuts dead donkey scenes
Danish director Lars Von Trier has cut scenes of a butchered donkey from his forthcoming movie, bowing to pressure from animal rights campaigners. Von Trier said that while his conscience was clear over the death of the donkey in Manderlay, he did not want the row to overshadow the film. Actor John C Reilly quit the project early on because of his concerns about animal welfare. Manderlay is the second film in a trilogy, following on from Dogville. Von Trier assured animal lovers the donkey had been put down "as compassionately as possible", using an injection. In a statement, he said he had taken the "unusual" step of cutting all the scenes showing the dead donkey after a barrage of letters. He said: "In my view the political and social content of the film is so important that it would be sad if it could be rejected or ignored merely by referring to the 'donkey problem', as it was called in the papers. "You might say that this renders the death of the donkey in conjunction with the making of the film meaningless; however, you may still rejoice in the fact that it escaped slaughter."
Kidman replaced
The production crew had originally sought to use a dummy donkey, but when that did not work they sought one that was to be slaughtered. Manderlay is set in the 1930s against a backdrop of slavery in the American South. Nicole Kidman played the character of Grace in Dogville, the first in the trilogy, but has been replaced by The Village star Dallas Bryce Howard for the second film because her heavy workload would have held up the production. Dogville was shot entirely in a studio using the minimum of props, to give it a feeling of a stage play.
That's unlike Von Trier to bow to pressure like that. I guess he feels he's making the best decision.
von trier is totally unpredictable, if you ain't surprised by his reaction then he's not lars.
It makes sense, though. I agree with his reasoning. I'd hate for my film to be overshadowed by such an issue.
So basically, John C. quit for what turned out to be a moot point. :(
A bit more info:
Von Trier Cuts Donkey Butchery Scene from 'Manderlay'
Maverick Danish filmmaker Lars von Trier will cut scenes of a donkey being butchered from his film about slavery in the U.S. South after protests from animal rights activists who said he killed the animal for entertainment.
Von Trier's experimental style and affection for dark and disturbing themes have made him a hero to some moviegoers and a menace in the eyes of others. He is notoriously secretive about projects in production.
In an open letter to "animal lovers" released on Thursday, the award-winning eccentric thanked the activists for the large number of letters and said the donkey had been put down as compassionately as possible.
"The meat from the donkey was passed on to take its place in the food chain the way donkey meat happens to do in our part of the world," he said in the unusual public comment.
"I cut all the scenes showing the dead donkey out of the film," the 48-year-old director said in the letter.
Von Trier denied the donkey was killed for entertainment. He said the political and social content of the film, "Manderlay," was so important that it would be unfortunate if it was rejected or ignored because of the donkey.
"My personal feeling is that I acted conscientiously, and I don't suppose we'll ever agree on that."
"Manderlay," the second film in a trilogy called "USA - Land of Opportunities." It is a story of slavery set in the 1930s American South starring Bryce Dallas Howard, Willem Dafoe and Danny Glover. Release is expected this year.
Quote from: Small Town LonerThat's unlike Von Trier to bow to pressure like that. I guess he feels he's making the best decision.
Well, he did cut some scenes out of breking the waves after test screenings, I know it's not the same thing but it goes to show that he's not completely unreasonable.
I wonder if he'll remove the donkey completely from the script.
two pics from the manderlay set:
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bryce dallas howard
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lars von trier & bryce dallas howard
looks like it's true about the white floor
News from Zentropa.
Fans of uncompromising art and donkey-haters are advised to be on the lookout for special features on the dvd-version of Manderlay
Also
My personal feeling is that I acted conscientiously, and I don't suppose we'll ever agree on that. However, the charge made in many of the letters of killing a donkey "for entertainment" is one that I refute on the grounds that such charges can only originate from ignorance of my films...particularly entertaining is something surely nobody would call them.
Animal welfare is important, but in my view human welfare is more so...and the latter includes freedom of speech and the right to political debate (also expressed through art) conducted in observance of personal ethics. The danger of a unilateral fight for animal rights (however important it might be) is, of course, possibly a form of insidious escapism from the injustice and horrors of the human worl. With the hop that my readers will avoid this trap, allow me to extend my good wishes to their heart felt projects.
Copenhagen, December 8, 2004. Lars von Trier
And also...
Bryce looks so fucking naive in those pictures...she's annoying. Hope Lars tortures her Bjork-style.
Quote from: LarsAnimal welfare is important, but in my view human welfare is more so...and the latter includes freedom of speech and the right to political debate (also expressed through art) conducted in observance of personal ethics. The danger of a unilateral fight for animal rights (however important it might be) is, of course, possibly a form of insidious escapism from the injustice and horrors of the human worl.[/i]
This is not very convincing...
why not?
He's making artificial (and convenient) separations. The "injustice and horrors of the human world" are absolutely part of the animal world... they're completely affected by it. They live in it.
I don't think humans causing suffering to animals is very different from humans causing suffering to humans. Especially if it's the causation that's important.
I think he's really trying to make an "art justifies animal sacrifice" argument but he's doing it really indirectly with his "what about the human world?" argument. Isn't he saying it's perfectly ethical to cause suffering to the animal world to represent the suffering of the human world? (And that's if we're separating the two worlds.)
I think what he did was wrong on its own terms. I haven't seen the film so I don't know if it was "worth it"... and even if it was on some theoretical level, that's a bizarre trade to make.
Quote from: Jeremy BlackmanI think what he did was wrong on its own terms. I haven't seen the film so I don't know if it was "worth it"... and even if it was on some theoretical level, that's a bizarre trade to make.
You think he was wrong killing a donkey on-camera or is it his statement you don't like?
I have no problem with the donkey business. If it was, as Lars and Zentropa says, an old donkey who was put to sleep off camera by a veterinarian and then slaughtered on camera...a donkey who was going to be put to sleep anyways. Then I have no problem with it. I think it's more justifiable to kill an animal for a cause than say hunting which is only for pure pleasure. Nobody hunts because they need to today. It's fun!!
But I agree with the rest of your post. The argument he's making is not very convincing.
Quote from: kotteI have no problem with the donkey business. If it was, as Lars and Zentropa says, an old donkey who was put to sleep off camera by a veterinarian and then slaughtered on camera...a donkey who was going to be put to sleep anyways. Then I have no problem with it.
I agree with you on that, then, if it's true (I didn't know about the "putting to sleep first" part).
So maybe it is his argument that I find offensive, because if he didn't cause animal suffering for his movie, he sure tried to justify it.
Quote from: kotteI think it's more justifiable to kill an animal for a cause than say hunting which is only for pure pleasure. Nobody hunts because they need to today. It's fun!!
I kind of disagree... I think killing an animal for food is justifiable (if it's done in a very respectful and useful way... which hunting rarely is, and farming almost never is).
And the idea of this trade between art and animal life still confuses me... I'm trying to find a concrete way that one might justify it but nothing comes to mind...
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman
And the idea of this trade between art and animal life still confuses me... I'm trying to find a concrete way that one might justify it but nothing comes to mind...
There isn't any.
This is another one of those movies that I know is gonna be brilliant but I don't have a clue of how the director's gonna pull it off. Such was the case with Kill Bill Volume 2, it was a continuing part of a first movie and it turned out great. I know Von Trier will do something beautiful with this second film but I'm not sure what it is yet.
Quote from: Jeremy BlackmanQuote from: kotteI think it's more justifiable to kill an animal for a cause than say hunting which is only for pure pleasure. Nobody hunts because they need to today. It's fun!!
I kind of disagree... I think killing an animal for food is justifiable (if it's done in a very respectful and useful way... which hunting rarely is, and farming almost never is).
But nobody hunts for food today. Sure, people hunt and have a good steak for dinner but they don't
have to hunt, they can get a fine steak from the supermarket.
I still think it's more justifiable to kill an animal for a cause than hunting.
pictures of the set I found in some dude's blog:
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Bryce drinks Coke.
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13 pics from the set:
http://www.movis.cc/manderlay.html#
Se trailer (http://www.play.dk/manderlay)
I haven't actually gotten it to work yet, so anybody care to comment?
(Loner, here's lookin' at you, kid.)
it is very nice and i am looking forward to seeing the film. i think there will be an alternate us trailer.
Quote from: MeatballEven if it's film from a still camera.
he is in the trailer.
Quote from: 03i think there will be an alternate us trailer.
haha yep.
and i'll just say right now, the predictable "von trier doesn't know what he's talking about" comments are all to be classified as bullshit, total utter meaningless crap.
download that trailer directly here: http://qt.play.dk/nordisk/manderlay_large.mov
The trailer is beautiful.
I agree with P. Lars knows his shit.
Fucking brilliant!
And the music is equally fucking brilliant!!
Quote from: Pubrick
download that trailer directly here: http://qt.play.dk/nordisk/manderlay_large.mov
Thank you.
This does look quite excitable.
No Stellan Skarsgård...I just noticed. No Stellan... :(
Finally we get the trailer! It really looks terrific, really high hopes. It's very much in the spirit of Dogville with the music and narration. You can see Von Trier being really snide again with calling each black person a nigger throughout the trailer.
So, does anyone else think that LVT will get another actress to play Grace in the third installment?
Since it's 3 interpretations of America, it could also be 3 interpretations of Grace.
That would be keen, yeah?
yeah that would be interesting
He's already said he's going to do that.
Quote from: GhostboyHe's already said he's going to do that.
HA!
Is it too late to delete my idea? :oops:
i like that grace now looks like a final fantasy character
thisll rule our arses
This movie (hell, the whole trilogy) is going to be very, very good.
I agree...
and what I'm hoping for is a documentary as good as Dogville's.
Quote from: Small Town LonerYou can see Von Trier being really snide again with calling each black person a nigger throughout the trailer.
um i think that's just reflecting the basic psychological hierarchy upon which the other divisions are imposed.
if there's any contempt it's towards the ones saying the word.
ha ha you sound like the narrator himself
Quote from: Small Town Lonerha ha you sound like the narrator himself
yeah i stole sum of his words, as it was clear from the trailer that ur comment had no basis whatsoever.
actually it did but I'm not gonna explain it to a pubrick such as yourself
Quote from: PubrickQuote from: Small Town Lonerha ha you sound like the narrator himself
yeah i stole sum of his words, as it was clear from the trailer that ur comment had no basis whatsoever.
Quote from: Small town Loneractually it did but I'm not gonna explain it to a pubrick such as yourself
will you explain it to me? because i originally thought you were joking in your comment regarding the language used in the trailer.
pressbook:
http://www.trust-film.dk/download/Manderlay_Pressbook_UK_72dpi.pdf
awesome preesbook, this movie's gonna be great
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So next one will be a comedy set in Washington with a cast of seven, including Hurt.
...he also said Manderlay would be a comedy about slaves. Who knows...
if these pictures are any indication it will be hilarious!
You can see Von Trier being really snide again by showing everyone wearing black in that last picture.
www.manderlaythefilm.com
The site is just like the Dogville site. Enjoyed the interviews.
You can see Von Trier being really snide again by giving the site a black background.
wooow he's trying so hard
I know i'm a few years late, but damn Dancer in the Dark is a great movie
Von Trier's 'Manderlay' Tackles Racism
Lars von Trier still has not visited the United States, yet he examines slavery and racism in "Manderlay," Part 2 of his caustic fantasy trilogy about life in America.
Premiering Monday at the Cannes Film Festival, "Manderlay" picks up where "Dogville" left off, with the character originated by Nicole Kidman now played by Bryce Dallas Howard stumbling onto a plantation that time forgot, where slavery still operates in the 1930s.
As with "Dogville," a Depression-era tale of a gangster's daughter who exacts vicious vengeance on a town that debased her, "Manderlay" could be about his own Denmark or any other country, von Trier said. He chose to set his trilogy in the United States because its culture is so dominant, he said.
"America is kind of sitting on the world. There's no question about it. It's sitting on the world, and therefore, I'm making films that have to do with America, because America fills about 60 percent of my brain," von Trier said at a Cannes news conference. "And I'm not very happy about that. ...
"Sixty percent of my life is America, so in fact, I am an American. But I can't go there to vote. I can't change anything because I'm from a small country, and we sit there and be American. So I am American, and that is why I make films about America. I don't see this as so strange," said von Trier, whose films include "Breaking the Waves" and "Dancer in the Dark," which won top honors at Cannes in 2000.
"Manderlay" begins soon after the massacre that ends "Dogville." Howard's Grace is traveling with her father (Willem Dafoe, taking over the role from James Caan in "Dogville") and his convoy of hoods as they drive south in search of new fortunes.
Making a pit stop outside the Manderlay plantation in Alabama, they discover that the residents still live as though slavery had not been abolished 70 years earlier. Blacks are chattel, tending cotton fields for their white masters.
Outraged, Grace intervenes, using her father's henchmen to free the slaves and enforce democracy at the point of a gun, an oblique commentary about President Bush imposing American ideology overseas.
"We are a nation under the influence, and I think under the very bad influence, from America I would say right now; also because I think Mr. Bush is ... doing a lot of completely idiotic things," von Trier said.
The former slaves are made proprietors of Manderlay, the whites subjugated as a lesson, forced in one scene to put on minstrel black face and serve food to their new masters.
The new community suffers famine, illness and other hardship, yet Grace guides Manderlay to utopian prosperity for a time. Happy endings are not in von Trier's playbook, and "Manderlay" winds up an indictment of a nation that tried to do the right thing by its former slaves, but with only half a heart.
Danny Glover, who plays a quietly sagacious patriarch among the ex-slaves, said "Manderlay" is set at a time when little progress had been made in improving conditions for blacks, whose lives remained much as they had been before emancipation.
"This did happen. It's not as if we invented it," Glover said. "It happened. So how do we address what happened? How do we address ways in which we can talk about it? And that's what I thought the film provided us. A context to do that."
The film follows the spartan design of "Dogville," shot on a soundstage with sparse sets, lending it a live-theater quality reminiscent of such minimalist productions as Thornton Wilder's "Our Town."
"Manderlay" features several returning cast members from "Dogville," some in different roles, among them Lauren Bacall, Jeremy Davies and Chloe Sevigny. John Hurt also is back as the narrator.
Von Trier had hoped to shoot the entire trilogy with Kidman, who bowed out after Part 1, citing scheduling conflicts. He said he plans to take a break from the trilogy before making the closing installment, "Wasington," while Howard was uncertain if she would be back as Grace in that film.
"I would amputate my toes to work with Lars again, and that's not really an exaggeration, honestly," said Howard, daughter of director Ron Howard. "If he does `Wasington' and there's a place for me in that film, then I would love to do that. But he needs to do what's right for that movie, of course."
wooow he's sniding so hard
take it down a notch, lars.
Quote from: MacGuffin"America is kind of sitting on the world. There's no question about it. It's sitting on the world, and therefore, I'm making films that have to do with America, because America fills about 60 percent of my brain," von Trier said at a Cannes news conference. "And I'm not very happy about that.
This is the best defense of his America obsession that I've read.
Press conference:
http://www.infocast.dk/bt/mediamaker.php?id=1241&offset=&category=184&q=
http://www.infocast.dk/bt/mediamaker.php?id=1261&offset=&category=184&q=
Trier: 'Black Americans Shunned My Slavery Film'
Lars Von Trier was forced to take his hunt for black actors to Britain, because hordes of African-American stars refused to play slaves. Manderlay - Von Trier's tale of slavery in the cotton fields of southern America in the 1930s - only attracted three US actors, who he discovered are generally terrified of dredging up a past the superpower would rather forget. However, the Danish director was relieved the British attitude to the film was far more open-minded - he managed to find nine of his 12 black slaves in the film in the UK. Von Trier says, "We tried several (Americans) who thought it was a good thing that the films was being made and that it was interesting. But they didn't take part in it because it's explosive stuff in the Usa. It's a shame for the coloured (sic) actors if they're only allowed to play heroes. If they aren't allowed to be human too. The English actors are completely relaxed about it, and they said 'yes massa' to me every morning. They had a laugh." And Lethal Weapon star Danny Glover - one of three black Americans to commit to the project - echoes Von Trier's frustrations, and has urged the US to stop ignoring a period of its history. He adds, "It would be extraordinary for (the American) film culture to unravel (slavery) but it doesn't. People are afraid to deal with it." Manderlay is in contention to win the coveted Palme D'Or at the Cannes Film Festival this weekend.
Howard: 'Manderlay' Sex Scene Challenging
It's hard to imagine Opie Taylor's daughter in an unnerving sex scene. Almost as hard as it was for Bryce Dallas Howard to imagine herself doing it.
The 24-year-old actress whose father, director Ron Howard, played two of TV's most wholesome characters, Opie in "The Andy Griffith Show" and Richie Cunningham on "Happy Days" bares it all in Lars von Trier's Cannes Film Festival entry "Manderlay."
"I'm a bit of a prude," Howard said, describing her reticence over the scene, a strange combination of violent passion and detached lovelessness between her character and a former slave played by Isaach De Bankole.
"I coped with doing it because I trusted and continue to trust what Lars does," Howard said in an interview at the luxurious Hotel du Cap near Cannes. "I felt like it was a really important scene, and this film is bigger than who I am and my own kind of ego and my own prudishness."
The film is the second in von Trier's trilogy about America, with Howard taking over the role originated by Nicole Kidman in "Dogville."
In "Manderlay," Grace, her gangster-father and their entourage discover an Alabama plantation where whites still own black slaves, 70 years after the Civil War. Grace plays emancipator in a well-intentioned though naive attempt to build a democratic community.
In terror over her sex scene, Howard said she went through it in a hypnotic state. After the first take, "I was kind of curled up in a fetal position, and Lars said, `Well, I got Grace's pain in that take,'" Howard said, laughing.
She excused herself and went to the bathroom to collect her thoughts.
"I said, `All right, you have to do this. It's ridiculous for you to have issues with this,'" Howard said. "Just view it as if you're doing a sketch on `Saturday Night Live' and this is funny, because I'll do anything to be funny, and most people will. They'll do ridiculous things that they can't be held accountable for.
"So that's what happened. I just started to look at it as some sort of comedic scene. Just in my head. And interestingly enough, Lars kind of felt that. The scene wasn't written funny at all, but there are some really eccentric and absurd moments in that scene that people tend to chuckle at."
An unknown when von Trier cast her to replace Kidman, whose schedule prohibited her from continuing the trilogy, Howard later shot to leading lady status with M. Night Shyamalan's thriller "The Village."
"She was kind of glowing and very charming," von Trier said of Howard about their first meeting. "She mastered all these different things needed for the role. She could kind of be quite tough and also she had that sentimental side."
Before her film career took off, Howard had focused on stage work after studying acting at New York University.
"Not that I wasn't interested in film," Howard said. "I just didn't have access to it."
How can Ron Howard's daughter not have access to Hollywood?
"In my opinion, there's no room for nepotism, because there are so many talented people. I just didn't have the opportunities," Howard said. "A couple of the film auditions I did go on were for very, very, very small roles, I'm talking like one line, and I was not extraordinary. So why would they have any reason to bring me back for bigger roles?"
Then one night after a performance of Shakespeare's "As You Like It" in New York, in which she played Rosalind, Howard found Shyamalan waiting. He told her how much he enjoyed the performance, and three weeks after the play closed, Shyamalan cast her in "The Village" as Ivy, a spirited blind youth who faces down the monsters of her imagination on a journey from her isolated community to the cruel world outside.
Howard did not even have to audition.
"He's crazy, obviously to do that, but I can get why," Howard said. "Because what he was looking for in Ivy was something I was randomly focusing on for my Rosalind. ... That's what he would have been looking for in an audition, and I guess he felt because I was trying to do that every night, he didn't need me to replicate that again.
"I think he was looking for an innocence and simultaneously someone with a strength and humor. The Rosalind I created, she was very young and very innocent and not easily wounded. Very determined and very strong, but also there was a lightness, a bubbliness to her."
Howard is playing Rosalind again in Kenneth Branagh's film version of "As You Like It," now shooting in London. After that, she reteams with Shyamalan for "Lady in the Water," which she calls a combination fantasy, romantic comedy and thriller, playing a water nymph discovered in a swimming pool by a building super (Paul Giamatti).
For "Wasington," the final part of his U.S. trilogy, von Trier said he is interested in featuring both Kidman and Howard, one as Grace, one as her sister.
"That would be amazing," Howard said. "I'm so glad he's actually been talking about that, because the more the talks about it, the more it might actually happen."
The press conference...
and a scene from the film. It does appear to be very funny.
http://www.festival-cannes.fr/films/fiche_film.php?langue=6002&partie=video&id_film=4271486&cmedia=6462
Quote from: POZERtake it down a notch, lars.
Know who should take it down a notch?
Quote from: Bryce Dallas HowardI would amputate my toes to work with Lars again...
You can see Von Trier being really snide again by casting black ppl in black roles.
Manderlay Poster:
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God! Didn't they have a picture of Bryce not looking like a retard?
Bryce....from above...
QuoteBefore her film career took off, Howard had focused on stage work after studying acting at New York University.
"Not that I wasn't interested in film," Howard said. "I just didn't have access to it."
How can Ron Howard's daughter not have access to Hollywood?
"In my opinion, there's no room for nepotism, because there are so many talented people.
...eh she's probably right. There is no nepotism. Infact, it was probably harder for her to get her role.
IFC picks up 'Manderlay,' 'Wedding'
IFC Films has acquired two films out of Cannes, IFC president of entertainment Jonathan Sehring said Monday. IFC picked up the U.S. distribution rights to Lars von Trier's controversial Festival de Cannes Competition entry "Manderlay" as well as fellow Dane Susanne Bier's still-filming "After the Wedding." (IFC is releasing Bier's Sundance award-winning "Brothers.") IFC began negotiations at Cannes on both projects with seller Trust Films. The two films will be released during the fourth quarter, Sehring said. "Manderlay" is the second installment of von Trier's planned USA trilogy; Lions Gate Releasing acquired the first installment, "Dogville," out of Cannes two years ago for $1 million.
TIFF Report: Manderlay Review (http://www.twitchfilm.net/archives/003444.html)
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Always difficult, always controversial and always about as subtle as a brick to the head Danish maverick Lars Von Trier returns to the festival with Manderlay, the second film in the America trilogy launched with Dogville. While this film suffers some by comparison to Dogville I'm going to disagree strongly with Mathew's review below and say that this is vintage Von Trier: strong, powerful and bitingly satiric. This time out Von Trier turns his gaze on American race relations - or, more accurately he uses race relations as an image to examine power relationships - and, not surprisingly, nobody escapes his scathing criticism.
Manderlay picks up where Dogville left off. Grace is travelling with her father and his roving band of gangsters as they try to find a new territory to set up shop. When they stop for a break in Alabama they stumble across a cotton plantation called Manderlay, a place where slavery is still being practiced seventy years after abolition. Grace steps in determined to change things and is soon forcibly democratizing the entire establishment. To go any further than that in describing the plot would entail dipping into serious spoilers and I will refrain from doing so ...
Manderlay echos the unusual approach of Dogville. While the other Dogme directors have by and large abandoned the movement and returned to conventional film making techniques Von Trier has plowed ahead determined to find other means to reach the same intimate ends targetted by Dogme. In this case it means a film shot on a bare soundstage with utterly minimal sets - the occasional piece of furniture or partial wall and small props - with the action of the entire plantation often in full view. While artifical lighting, guns, and dolly and crane shots - all things banned by Dogme - are allowed here it is, nonetheless, another case of Von Trier limiting his technical palette to force himself to focus on his characters.
But calling them characters at all is something of a misnomer ... while Dogme aimed to create and capture real people in extreme situations these America films don't have an actual person in them. This is high satire. There is no attempt at realism, each of these characters is meant to embody some sort of political or idealogical position. The easiest trap to fall into with these films is to assume that Grace is speaking for Von Trier himself but that is very simply not the case. If anything Grace - with her naive idealism and belief that she has the moral authority to impose her views on others by force if neccessary leaving a broad swathe of ignored destruction in her wake - is Von Trier's primary target. As Mathew has pointed out in his review below Grace's understanding of race relations is laughably shallow but I suggest that this is not a failing but rather a very intentional feature: Grace represents the vocal faction that believes so simply and purely in their own idealogy that they've never once stopped to actually look at it or the consequences of it that they remain blissfully unaware of their own destructive power until it is far, far too late. Also skewered are the oppressors and the oppressed who are implicit in their own situation. Basically Lars is unhappy with everyone and very, very vocal about it.
Standing on its own strength Manderlay is a very strong film but it does suffer from the changes, largely cast changes, made after Dogville. Even by Von Trier standards - and we're talking about a man who once provoked an actor into removing their own shirt, cutting it up and eating it - Manderlay was a difficult shoot. Nicole Kidman opted out of the role of Grace at the last possible moment to take the large payday offered by Bewitched and while Dallas Howard is a talented actress with a bright future she is simply too young and too inexperienced to do the role justice. John C Reilly - who was slated for a major part - walked out of the shoot midway through to protest the on-camera slaughter of a donkey and his role was excised entirely. Willem Dafoe steps into the gangster-father role previously held by James Caan and while I generally like Dafoe a lot he could never even hope to compete with Caan's screen searing performance in the part. Von Trier has brought back Jean Marc Barr, Chloe Sevigny and Udo Kier but all - particularly Barr and Sevigny - are reduced to little more than window dressing. The slave cast is servicable but only Danny Glover and Isaach De Bankole truly stand out, which is a surprising step back from the complexity of village life in Dogville. There is no single performance here to rival Stellan Skaarsgaard, Paul Bettany or Phillip Baker Hall. While the cast is certainly strong enough fans of Dogville will likely spend the first couple chapters lamenting the lack of that previous film's principal cast.
Strongest in th middle section where it focuses on power politics in general rather than race relations in particular Manderlay is brash film, sure to provoke strong reactions. Von Trier's is a restless angry voice, decrying just about anything while offering very little in the way of solutions. He seems to be content to simply stand in the middle of the street and yell at the top of his lungs "You're doing it all wrong!" Love him or hate him you very simply cannot ignore him.
* * * *
Another, less than happy, review (http://www.twitchfilm.net/archives/003438.html)
this was absolutely amazing. i think i like it more than Dogville.
the date is set...
USA - 3 February 2006 - (limited)
I saw it the other night; I agree that it is amazing, but I think I liked Dogville more. I'll give it time to settle; in the meantime, here's my full review. (http://www.road-dog-productions.com/reviews/archives/2005/11/manderlay.html)
I've seen the first ten minutes a couple of times. The opening shot is fucking ace. The story looks a bit forced?
I need to see more.
I think they're available on iTunes or something. Bad marketing move, in my opinion - the first twenty minutes are beyond forced, and nearly sink the whole film before it gets started.
Quote from: Ghostboy on November 30, 2005, 03:29:29 PM
I think they're available on iTunes or something. Bad marketing move, in my opinion
The idea in and of itself is a bad marketing idea. Great for LvT fans who can't wait to see it but think about if they had done that with any of Lars' films. I don't think anyone who wouldn't already like Lars would be interested in seeing one of his films just by having a chance to watch the first 10 minutes. If anything, most people would be scared away. Perfect example, my mother wanted to see Dogville because she's a big Nicole Kidman fan. She wouldn't have lasted 30 minutes, an hour at the most.
And speaking of this mythical first 10 minutes of Manderlay, I tried downloading it from iTunes but it gave me a trailer for King Kong instead. Anyone else get this?
Quote from: hacksparrow on December 02, 2005, 12:09:32 PM
And speaking of this mythical first 10 minutes of Manderlay, I tried downloading it from iTunes but it gave me a trailer for King Kong instead. Anyone else get this?
That
is the first 10 minutes of Manderlay.
The starlet, the wizard, and the buzz
By Mark Olsen, Los Angeles Times
Danish director Lars von Trier is famously phobic about traveling by plane, and though a number of his films have been set in the United States, he has never set foot on American soil.
He's also legendarily thorny and argumentative in interviews. But ask him about his latest leading actress, 24-year-old Bryce Dallas Howard, and he shows a gentler side.
"I'm not going to say anything bad about Bryce, so you can just forget it," he joked during a recent phone interview.
Howard, star of "The Village" and daughter of director Ron Howard, has signed on for the role of Grace in "Manderlay," the latest missive from Von Trier, due in theaters next month. The film is the second in a proposed trilogy. (In the previous film, "Dogville," the role of Grace was played by Nicole Kidman.)
The pairing of Von Trier, 49, and Howard has generated plenty of buzz. After all, there's just something irresistible about the idea of a budding starlet on-the-rise, a scion of Hollywood's own, no less, falling under the wizard-like tutelage of one of international cinema's most fearsome and irascible filmmakers.
Von Trier thinks that perhaps it is easier for younger actresses like Howard to put up with him.
"When you're that young, I think you wouldn't be scared off. When you're very young, you don't care what happens to you as long as you go in the right direction. Furthermore, there is nothing to be scared about, since I am the most kind person you could ever meet."
Switching directions, he added, "That is, of course, not true, but almost. Like in 'The Silence of the Lambs.' I don't eat actresses."
For a punch line, he changed tack once more.
"Not without a nice Chianti."
Despite the reputation that precedes him — cemented in part by a string of fiery press conferences at his usual stamping grounds at the Cannes Film Festival — when he came on the line for the recent phone interview, the man on the other end couldn't have been more charming or pleasant to speak with, chirping happily in a slightly singsong cadence.
Set in the 1930s, "Dogville" found Grace, daughter of a ruthless gangster, hiding out in a remote mountain village, where the film's unusual ascetic staging flowered into a sharp fable about the nature of society-building and ended with Grace burning the town to the ground. "Manderlay" is shot in the same style, utilizing an open-plan soundstage with bare-bones sets to convey a mixed sense of theatrical gravitas and dreamlike ambiguity.
This time Grace lands in a walled-off Southern plantation where slavery remains decades after the end of the Civil War, and she takes it upon herself to change things. While it can be difficult for audiences to get past the scab-picking of a story that deals with race relations in America, underneath is another allegorical tale of power and its abuses, and the often broad chasm between intentions and results.
Speaking at the Toronto International Film Festival in September, Howard explained that she has long been a fan of Von Trier's films. When the opportunity came up to audition for "Manderlay" she jumped at the chance, if for no other reason than that it meant she might meet the director and get an early chance to see the then-unreleased "Dogville."
She expressed some surprise at his reputation for being difficult, as she says she never encountered that side of Von Trier.
As Howard explained, "He has this personality that's been created for himself by the press that's completely not related to the man I know at all. I've never experienced anything like it in my life.
"He's just really thoughtful and sweet and caring and would do things like, if a scene was emotionally too difficult for me he would keep pushing and get some extraordinary things out of me, but then he would stop and allow me to have a healthy night. What kind of filmmaker would stop for the sake of their actress?"
"Dogville" was dogged by accusations of anti-Americanism, and it could be expected that "Manderlay" will be met by a similar response. As to whether she was ever able to pick Von Trier's brain for his true feelings and intentions on the matter, Howard said she struck out.
"Lars keeps things incredibly separate," she replied. "There's not much discussion about the script at all. You'll shoot for the day and then go have dinner. At dinner, if I'd bring up anything about the shoot or ask a question about the next day, he'd say, 'Oh, why do you want to ruin dinner by talking about work?' So I never really got around to any of that stuff."
Shooting on digital video, Von Trier will run through a scene over and over again, often prodding his performers along from behind the camera during each take.
Part of the mystique of Von Trier's work is the notion that he pushes his actresses to their very limits, drawing out work of an emotional intensity and rawness that few others are able to achieve. His films have never produced a performance from a male actor as noted as those he has elicited from previous female collaborators such as Kidman, Björk or Emily Watson.
Asked why he seems to work better with female performers than their male counterparts, he joked around for a bit before settling in to a real, reasoned response.
"We kind of make the film together," he explained, "and that is a way that demands you give in to the project and give in to the director. That may be why I, for some reason, have an easier time with women, because if they are convinced you are doing the right thing, it's easier for them somehow to give in. Which is positive or negative, however you want to see it, but that is a difference there.
"It depends on how much imagination you have as an actor, and I think that imagination — now I'm saying something I will probably regret about men and women — but I think maybe the actresses I have met have been very good at staying in the situation even when talking to me and doing things again and again and again. Where a man would try to control a scene more, I think. Of course it is not always true, but both Nicole and Bryce were very good at trying things that were even wrong, which I think would be more difficult with a man."
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Trailer here. (http://www.apple.com/trailers/independent/manderlay/trailer/)
Quote from: MacGuffin on January 05, 2006, 09:50:27 PM
Trailer here. (http://www.apple.com/trailers/independent/manderlay/trailer/)
Looking for something at Apple.com?The page you tried was not found. You may have used an outdated link or may have typed the address (URL) incorrectly. You might find what you're looking for in one of these areas..
(then when u go to the main trailer page and click manderlay again it says the same thing.. maybe it was too snide afterall)
Seems to be working fine now.
I really hated this movie. If Dogville was at best a bold experiment and at worst a pretentious play on film, this is just a lame retread. I don't know where the TRILOGY is going from here but Dogville felt much more powerful as a 3rd act and not the 1st. And atleast Dogville had some interesting actors who have been replaced here by mostly unrecognizable actors playing former slaves and arent given much to do. Lauren Bacall, Chloe Sevingy and Jeremy Davies pop up in cameo's but only for a moment. Bryce Dallas's acting seemed a bit more stagey than Nicole Kidmans which made it a lot harder to stay with the film. Even for a director like Von Trier, who I'm not completely sold on, he really seems to be wasting his time here. It seems like something you flip past on PBS and not an important film. Boring. I won't be checking out the final installment barring a miracle.
Quote from: modage on January 19, 2006, 11:18:05 PM
And atleast Dogville had some interesting actors who have been replaced here by mostly unrecognizable actors playing former slaves and arent given much to do.
modage doesn't care about black people.
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Bryce Dallas Howard is the gorgeous and talented ingénue born of Hollywood royalty but has taken the art film world by storm with her powerful performance in Lars Von Trier’s Manderlay.
Manderlay is set in 1933 in the deep south of the US. Grace [Bryce Dallas Howard] and her gangster father had left the township of Dogville behind them. By chance their cars stop in the state of Alabama in front of a large hose. Grace finds that this house still practices slavery. She uses her father’s thugs to free the slaves. But they have been slaves all their life and are confused as to what to do next.
Daniel Robert Epstein: How did you get involved with Manderlay?
Bryce Dallas Howard: I was doing As You Like It here in New York. Blair Brown is one of my best friends and she acted in Dogville. She recommended to [producer] Vibeke Windeløv that I should audition for it. So even before I shot The Village I put myself on tape. Then while I was shooting The Village, Lars [Von Trier] flew me out one weekend to audition for him in Denmark. It was a crazy experience to be in the middle of one thing and then to fly out and come back after meeting Lars. It was fun.
DRE: Did you have any trepidations about accepting the role?
Howard: Taking the role was completely a non-issue because I think Lars is a genius and I just wanted to be a part of that. But I was nervous because I had heard so many rumors about Lars and his style of working. But I’m so tired of people who are really nice but whose work is really crappy. So to come to the studio in Sweden and be taken care of and nurtured and be met with such tremendous kindness is really almost weird. I wasn't prepared for that.
DRE: Had you seen Dogville before getting involved?
Howard: I had.
DRE: How did that affect your performance?
Howard: Lars made it clear to me that he wanted to create something completely new and that I shouldn’t feel burdened by trying to mimic a previously brilliant performance. That would've made me feel very conflicted and confused. We were trying to create a very different Grace than what Nicole had done in Dogville. Then there'll be a completely different Grace created in Wasington which is the third in his trilogy. I watched Dogville and I studied [Kidman's] performance more because I really respected what she did as an actress. Then I was free to do my best to do my own thing.
DRE: What was the audition like?
Howard: He actually brought in one of his friends to do a few scenes with me. We just went through them and started improvising while he shot and it actually got kind of hilarious. When you give two actors an opportunity to improvise for three hours they'll just become totally crude and absurd. But that was what the experience was like. I was just honored to meet him. I thought that if that was going to be the extent of my relationship with Lars Von Trier then I was satisfied. He's an incredible man and it was even better to work with him.
DRE: How is he incredible?
Howard: He's become one of my dear friends. He fiercely supported my growth as a friend and as an actor. He's very gentle and very compassionate. He's fierce about his work so he’s an ambitious filmmaker and I'm a huge admirer.
DRE: Did you rehearse for this?
Howard: Lars doesn't rehearse but that's fun for an actor. It makes you use your imagination. He prepared us by screening Dogville and giving us the script for Manderlay.
DRE: You had your first nude scene in this, how was doing that?
Howard: I’m a bit of a prude but I coped with it because I trusted and continue to trust what Lars does. I felt like it was a really important scene and this film is bigger than who I am and my own ego and prudishness. During the sex scene I was kind of curled up in a fetal position and Lars said, “Well, I got Grace’s pain in that take” [laughs]. I viewed it as if you’re doing a sketch on Saturday Night Live because I’ll do anything to be funny and most people will. They’ll do ridiculous things that they can’t be held accountable for. So I just started to look at it as a sort of comedic scene and interestingly enough, Lars kind of felt that. The scene wasn’t written funny at all, but there are some really eccentric and absurd moments where people tend to chuckle.
DRE: What did your dad think of that scene?
Howard: My father was very proud and impressed by the film but he watched that scene with his hands over his eyes. But he's impressed with artists who push the boundaries so he’s glad that I'm a part of that.
DRE: I watched the Museum Of The Moving Image Salute to your father last week. I realized that in a lot of the ways you are living one of the great American dreams. There were a lot of friendly and well meaning people at the tribute including yourself. There is a Lars Von Trier retrospective coming up in Manhattan titled “Well meaning people are dangerous” which of course is the essence of many of his films including Manderlay. How do you see Lars’ vision of America?
Howard: I have to make it clear that I don't know nor will I never know what Lars’ view of America is because I'm not inside of his head. However, that being said I feel encouraged by his view of America because he's taking a stance for things that aren't just occurring in America, but everywhere in the world. I think that this is a very exciting time right now in every nation of the world. We can start making certain choices that are moving towards a certain way of life and becoming aware of these troubling behaviors that are causing devastating effects. What I'm specifically referring to is the subtle racism that's going on because no one will ever admit that there is an aftermath of slavery that we haven't solved in any way. I think Lars, in a way, views himself as American therefore he feels like he's entitled and responsible for talking about these issues. Lars is not into creating a very specific message and sending that message out as a solution. He's into creating problems and generating conflicts, that will drive people into creating solutions.
DRE: Did doing this inform your politics or viewpoints at all?
Howard: It did when I was offered this film because I had only started voting a few months before. Before I voted I didn't really have a voice and so I wasn't political. It didn't necessarily change my opinion of anything, but my opinions grew and I would say that my knowledge grew and it continues to grow and shift. I will make a decision about something and then I realize that I'm actually wrong and then I make another decision and realize that I was totally misinformed.
DRE: I read that certain African-American actors including Danny Glover turned this film down a number of times.
Howard: Famously, Lars had difficulty getting African-Americans to sign on and play these parts after they read the script. I'm not sure why that is. Danny refused a bunch of times. But it's mostly an international cast. There are like four Black Americans in this out of 12. Obviously, that implies that is some reluctance on the part of American actors to take the part.
DRE: Do you have any personal experiences with racism?
Howard: The first time I understood what racism is, was in Louisiana. A lot of my family is from the South and I was in a car with some of my grandfather's friends. They were great and wonderful people and I was having the best time with them. At one point we were driving past a school and we saw a very young black mother pushing a carriage with her daughter, who with her very light skin obviously had a white father. This one woman who I really liked and respected, said “That's disgusting!” I was just like, “What?” She said “To bring mixed babies into this world is disgusting. I don't have anything against that young mother but for her to bring a mixed child into this world is unfair and cruel.” I was so confused. It was really bizarre for me, because I had been raised in an environment where we never even thought about the color of people's skin. It was really surreal, but I ended up having tremendous prejudice against the South. Just because of that moment and that remark, everybody seemed really soiled.
DRE: Did you make up a back story for your character?
Howard: I did but then I had to ignore it immediately because of the way that Lars' shoots. It was very simple. It was that she's extraordinarily determined and she's extraordinarily emotional and when those two things mix together she becomes myopic and makes mistakes that have devastating consequences.
DRE: The Village shares of a lot of themes with Manderlay, such as isolationism and once again, well meaning people making bad and rash decisions. Is that a coincidence?
Howard: Oh yeah, entirely. It's interesting though. But Lars and Night were not in communication at all [laughs].
DRE: How are they similar as filmmakers?
Howard: Different in many ways and similar in many ways. They were different in the way that they shoot because Night has a tendency to rehearse quite a bit and then do one very long shot of a scene. Lars will create a performance in the editing room based on many takes. As far as personalities, there's a similarity there because they’re both deeply good, wonderful filmmakers and men who are writer/directors and producers of their own work. So it is truly their own voice and that's unique. There aren't many filmmakers like that.
DRE: How does Lars communicate on set?
Howard: Very sparse. He would say, “100 percent less. 300 percent less.” [laughs] “Two percent more.” But he gives you infinite support and you feel that. It's almost like a parent with a child. When the parent is encouraging the child can grow. That's Lars.
Lars and I are similar in that we both punish ourselves in many ways. When he was growing up, his parents were very unrestricting. They didn't have rules and so he had to set his own rules and boundaries. My parents were very strict, but not with ideas. They really wanted us to form our own ideas about the world and I think that's why I am so aggressive about educating myself and becoming the best form of myself that I can.
DRE: Was the film shot in sequence?
Howard: Not at all. I remember Lars saying “Bryce, during every sequence you manage to find the perfect spot on set and do the entire scene from that place.” He doesn't say where you'll be blocked or anything like that.
DRE: How was it working with M. Night again on Lady in the Water?
Howard: It was great. Even better and juicier because he knows my instrument very well and knows how to push me.
DRE: What directors do you want to work with?
Howard: I would love to work with directors that take a genre and stylistically changing them. I love what Sam Raimi is doing with the Spider-Man franchise. I think that’s fascinating. I love Sofia Coppola and how she's found her own voice. I love being a part of a filmmaker’s vision.
DRE: Are there actors you aspire to be like?
Howard: That’s difficult because I try not to idolize actors because then I put a separation between myself and them and I don't want to do that. I look at what Meryl Streep does and I'm like, "Where did she begin? How did she do that? How could she do that?" Then I just start to feel frustration and anxiety and ultimately depression because I can't do that. But if I start to idolize her or put her on a pedestal, then I completely cancel out the possibility that one day I might be able to have some insight into her work. The moment I admire someone too much I start to think I'll never get close and then I stop trying. My only wish for myself is that I always keep trying; I don't have to ever get there. I have to be honest, I’m never going to get to the same level that Cate Blanchett or Nicole Kidman or Meryl Streep are. But I have to think somewhere in the back of my head that if I keep trying, one day it might be possible, because then I'll be able to push myself further.
I get to see this Saturday.
http://calendar.walkerart.org/event.wac?id=2597
Very excited...
When does my Orange County ass get to see it?
@ the ifc center:
MANDERLAY opens Friday, January 27.
Lars von Trier in live on-screen Q&A Saturday, January 28 & Sunday, January 29 at noon shows!
haha, i saw that. LIVE (on screen) Q&A! what a pussy. just get on the plane. :yabbse-rolleyes:
Quote from: modage on January 27, 2006, 07:30:50 AM
haha, i saw that. LIVE (on screen) Q&A! what a pussy. just get on the plane. :yabbse-rolleyes:
I think Nostradamus predicted that Lars in the US is a sign of the apocalypse.
The King will want to enter the new city
He will find it inhabited by dogs
The oceans will crash upon the shores
And he shall dance only after sundown.Or something like that.
Mindblowing. Probably better than Dogville. And probably the best film of the year.
MILD SPOILERS
I can't imagine Nicole Kidman filling Bryce Dallas Howard's shoes in this role. Howard has a stronger sense of idealism, a more believeable sense of purpose, and an authentic sense of weakness—intellectually, emotionally, and morally. I might almost say it was a mistake not to have used Howard in Dogville. Kidman in comparison has an almost farcical aura, which I suppose worked for that movie, but would not have for this one.
MODERATE SPOILERS
Dogville was mindblowing in more of a narrative and visual sense. This film, having lost that novelty, is mindblowing almost exclusively in a moral sense. In that way, it's a bit different, and perhaps better. It's just as agonizing, but ultimately more challenging. Which is quite a devastating thrill.
EXTREME SPOILERS
This has the same sort of story arc. The same sort of exponentially increasing power. And while at first (like Dogville) it seems mild, it certainly does not disappoint.
Quote from: pozer on January 26, 2006, 12:10:14 PM
When does my Orange County ass get to see it?
Friday.
Thanks, Mac. Friday it is.
i keep thinking mac is mod. also i keep thinking JB is black.
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on January 28, 2006, 11:24:48 PM
MILD SPOILERS
MODERATE SPOILERS
EXTREME SPOILERS
there were no spoilers in your review at all. can't wait to see this so you can talk about what the movie meant, instead of just technical stuff about the structure and reactions to the acting or whatever.
I consider them spoilers. I wouldn't want to know those things before seeing the movie.
I don't want to say much until there's more here to respond to, but I will say (as far as meaning goes... umm, SPOILER....) that the film is a warning against unnaturally imposing one's ideas on others.
Also, BIG SPOILER, after reading around a bit, it amazes me how many people have completely misinterpreted the sex scene, especially when its meaning is made clear by the narration and Howard's amazing performance. That, for many reasons, is one of the greatest scenes. (Note: Misinterpretations of that scene often reveal a lot about the misinterpreter.)
Wow. I just saw the trailer. That is really horrible, I hope nobody saw it... it even has the formulaic rapid-fire sex/violence climax and ferociously out-of-context voiceover editing...
Wow, I am SO stoked to see this film after reading you guys' raves. I think Dogville was my favorite of all von Trier's wonderful films, and the fact that this seems to be another "installment" of Dogville makes me even more eager for it. I think it's coming to Seattle within the next month. . .
Quote from: godardian on February 03, 2006, 11:12:32 AM
and the fact that this seems to be another "installment" of Dogville
what do you mean by installment? the whole trilogy aims to explore variations on the same idea, character, and technique. you sound surprised is all..
Quote from: Pubrick on February 03, 2006, 11:31:22 AM
Quote from: godardian on February 03, 2006, 11:12:32 AM
and the fact that this seems to be another "installment" of Dogville
what do you mean by installment? the whole trilogy aims to explore variations on the same idea, character, and technique. you sound surprised is all..
Well, I guess I didn't realize until recently that it was actually going to have (some of) the same characters and everything. So often, when something is posited as a "trilogy," its connections are in theme/spirit tone (I'm thinking of Bergman's and Antonioni's famed trilogies) rather than actually returning to the same characters.
I didn't word it very well, either. I meant that it will be another installment of the
trilogy that
Dogville started off, not another installment of
Dogville. It sounds to me like these three films will be three episodes in the experience of Grace, and will use those experiences to make some astute observations about the nature of power and hypocrisy (esp. in America and American attitudes?).
Quote from: godardian on February 03, 2006, 12:02:28 PMIt sounds to me like these three films will be three episodes in the experience of Grace, and will use those experiences to make some astute observations about the nature of power and hypocrisy (esp. in America and American attitudes?).
That seems to be right. One of the differences in Manderlay, though, is that the Thomas Edison character has been combined with the Grace character, and in that way it's more Grace-focused. Grace is not a victim in Manderlay in the same way Thomas Edison was not a victim in Dogville.
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on February 03, 2006, 12:37:16 PM
Quote from: godardian on February 03, 2006, 12:02:28 PMIt sounds to me like these three films will be three episodes in the experience of Grace, and will use those experiences to make some astute observations about the nature of power and hypocrisy (esp. in America and American attitudes?).
That seems to be right. One of the differences in Manderlay, though, is that the Thomas Edison character has been combined with the Grace character, and in that way it's more Grace-focused. Grace is not a victim in Manderlay in the same way Thomas Edison was not a victim in Dogville.
I also know another reason to welcome Godardian back: He's a co-conspirator with Jeremy Blackman on taste that is usually the opposite of mine.
I forgot how similar their tastes were. If Godardian is here championing his films then he's more likely to draw JB into the fray with a comment and I'm more likely to get an argument out of him.
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on January 28, 2006, 11:24:48 PM
And probably the best film of the year.
it's only february! whats it's competition?
Quote from: godardian on February 03, 2006, 11:12:32 AM
Wow, I am SO stoked to see this film after reading you guys' raves.
well, i HATED it. it's really just a tedious exercise with none of the life that von trier's other films have had. and it's 49% on rotten tomatoes (only 27% of the critics who matter), so better go in with more reasonable expections.
Ah. . . the divisiveness of LVT lives on! I saw that Manderlay got an "F" from Owen Glieberman (who I often share my taste with), and modage and Gold Trumpet seem set to flunk it, too. . . . It seems that all of his films get this kind of sharply divided reaction, though (with some critics going so far as to call von Trier "misogynist"), so I'm really looking forward to gauging it for myself.
I saw this a couple of months ago. I wouldn't say it's bad, but nowhere near as good as "Dogville". I agree with pretty much everything that's been said here, but the ending did go down a road I wasn't expecting (in a good way). Howard was fine, but not as convincing as Kidman. Maybe LVT's style has worn off a bit here. Part of what made "Dogville" so interesting was that we were seeing this new style for the first time. Here it's just more tiresome and a bit stale. But it did leave me looking forward to the third chapter of this trilogy. Although he's gonna have to redeem himself in some ways.
nah, no spoilers.
here i was complaining that i hadn't been motherfucked in the head by a recent film and i see manderlay today. mysteriously, it reminded me of the time i saw dogville, where my sister and i were left in the kind of shock that, to paraphrase a painter, makes you think that the purpose of art really is to make our lives a bit more complicated. sorry for the cheese but i like that phrase.
like jb said, it lacks the novelty of dogville's 'minimalism', which really doesn't matter if you're a sucker for huge zenithal shots like me. anywho, i see manderlay as a much more story focused film . dogville was a film in love with its tricks while respecting the story. it had the balance between style and substance that lotsa people try to find in lotsa films. manderlay is a more direct and stripped (yes) version of the first part, with a brand new thesis!. less balanced, more well-composed. at the moment i can't think of any other current director more relevant and sincere than lars. and the art in it...pfff, this film glows.
Quote from: godardian on February 04, 2006, 12:09:56 PM
Ah. . . the divisiveness of LVT lives on! I saw that Manderlay got an "F" from Owen Glieberman (who I often share my taste with), and modage and Gold Trumpet seem set to flunk it, too. . . . It seems that all of his films get this kind of sharply divided reaction, though (with some critics going so far as to call von Trier "misogynist"), so I'm really looking forward to gauging it for myself.
I'm not about to flunk this film, but having having not liked any Lars Von Trier film I've seen, I'm just playing odds. I actually anticipate his every new film. The ambition of his films keep me coming back with hopeful feelings.
Quote from: The Artist Formerly Known As on January 26, 2006, 12:10:14 PM
When does my Orange County ass get to see it?
Come tonight, 10:30
QuoteEdwards University Town Center 6 Fandango
(Regal Entertainment Group) 4245 Campus Drive, Irvine, CA 92612, 949-854-8818
I'll be with a 1/16 black guy and a guy wearing a suit jacket. I'll be wearing this red Cursive shirt I have on now. It has a fairy on it. You won't be able to miss us.
P.S. Say you're my cousin from Alabama. Or Idado. We'll discuss it in the bathroom before the start of the movie. Oh yeah let's meet in the bathroom and we'll just say we hit things off right away. Even better.
I'll be there, but you won't recognize me no matter how much I describe myself... I'll be with a chick.
I think the movie is for people who like to think about movies but don't actually enjoy watching movies. Cinemasochists. I enjoy reading Jeremy Blackman talk about the movie, I liked his Green Screen on Dogville, but there is no enjoyment in watching Manderlay at all. LVT hates the audience here, while he used to toy with him.
And frankly, what wasn't obvious from the get-go. The only real surprise is a situational one that has nothing to do with the meaning of the film - if you didn't know where he was going with the film right away I'm amazed. Don't get me wrong, I strapped myself in for the end, I literally said to my friend "Get ready" when they were selling the harvest. There was an exhilarating ride for thirty minutes, but I pay $8 for an entire park, not just one slide. The rest of the movie is boring. It's just fucking boring. I completely agree with mod that the actors/characters aren't interesting by large, the situations aren't interesting, and the motions they go through were monotonous but not provocative. And it was monotonous when it was provocative. This isn't Grapes of Wrath or Master and Commander repetitive, as I realize plantation life would be repetitive and that you could justify the film with this, it's hate for the audience.
I can't wait to read what Blackman is going to say about the film. I'll wait as long as possible until I see Manderlay again. I think LVT's fans are allowing him to become more and more selfish with his filmmaking by calling stuff like this genius.
Spoiler: The third in the trilogy is going to be LVT masturbating for two and a half hours.
Quote from: Losing the Horse: on February 08, 2006, 04:55:38 PM
I can't wait to read what Blackman is going to say about the film.
Page 7.
Quote from: Losing the Horse: on February 08, 2006, 04:55:38 PM
I think the movie is for people who like to think about movies but don't actually enjoy watching movies. Cinemasochists . . . there is no enjoyment in watching Manderlay at all. LVT hates the audience here, while he used to toy with him.
I guess I'm a "cinemasochist" then, because yes, the movie is unpleasant, and I enjoyed it for all its unpleasantness... I think "devastating thrill" from my earlier comments describes my experience. It's challenging, and it's a cinematic exercise, and it makes a point, and that's what I like about LVT.
You complain about it not being provocative enough after you essentially complain about its being provocative (and how he's hating on his audience with all his provocations). Am I wrong? And sure, parts of the film are slow, but I wouldn't use the word "boring." How about "deliberate"? It's part of the "exponentially increasing power." And I certainly think it was worth the wait.
Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on February 08, 2006, 09:12:16 PM
Quote from: Losing the Horse: on February 08, 2006, 04:55:38 PM
I can't wait to read what Blackman is going to say about the film.
Page 7.
Quote from: Losing the Horse: on February 08, 2006, 04:55:38 PM
I think the movie is for people who like to think about movies but don't actually enjoy watching movies. Cinemasochists . . . there is no enjoyment in watching Manderlay at all. LVT hates the audience here, while he used to toy with him.
I guess I'm a "cinemasochist" then, because yes, the movie is unpleasant, and I enjoyed it for all its unpleasantness... I think "devastating thrill" from my earlier comments describes my experience. It's challenging, and it's a cinematic exercise, and it makes a point, and that's what I like about LVT.
You complain about it not being provocative enough after you essentially complain about its being provocative (and how he's hating on his audience with all his provocations). Am I wrong? And sure, parts of the film are slow, but I wouldn't use the word "boring." How about "deliberate"? It's part of the "exponentially increasing power." And I certainly think it was worth the wait.
Hey I want more than what's on page 7. More is going to come, right?
As for provocative, I was talking about the subject matter. Certainly the style is just as provocative as we would expect from LVT, but the material becomes so slow coming and brings up the same subjects enough times (The thing you hate serves a useful purpose, you shouldn't force an opinion, Grace is naive, Grace trusts people Grace shouldn't trust people - on repeat) that it ceases being provocative.
And the deliberate thing I don't agree on. Like I said, I don't see there being enough justification. No, here I'm contradicting myself. It can be justified because LVT hates us now.
Quote from: Losing the Horse: on February 09, 2006, 01:32:46 AM
Hey I want more than what's on page 7. More is going to come, right?
When I made my first comments there was really no one to discuss the movie with, but now here I am debating the movie with you, which is a very good thing.
SPOILERS THAT YOU DON'T WANT TO READQuote from: Losing the Horse: on February 09, 2006, 01:32:46 AMAs for provocative, I was talking about the subject matter. Certainly the style is just as provocative as we would expect from LVT, but the material becomes so slow coming and brings up the same subjects enough times (The thing you hate serves a useful purpose, you shouldn't force an opinion, Grace is naive, Grace trusts people Grace shouldn't trust people - on repeat) that it ceases being provocative.
I think many things are revealed (and provoked) toward the end when things start spiraling backward, and Grace leaves the town precisely as she found it (visually, at least, with Timothy tied up for lashings). What about the revelation that Wilhelm wrote Mam's Law, and the whole Stockholm Syndrome dimension, and rejection of freedom in favor of falling back on familiarity and security, the slaves rejecting freedom altogether after being disappointed with a false freedom (which was imposed at gunpoint), and of course my favorite, the problem of how one helps people regain the human desire for democracy after they have been so deeply trained to advocate against their own best interests. That's enough for me.
BEYOND JEREMY BLACKMAN SPOILERS
I like that Von Trier made a choice for these characters. I'm sick of movies bringing up the idea of ideas, but not passing any judgments. At the end, when the black people decide to live in self-imposed slavery, my friend was like "Man, von Trier thinks black people are stupid." When that's a lie, he thinks everyone's stupid. But if you take this as yet ANOTHER allegory about colonialism and the war in Iraq and etc, it's by far the most interesting idea, film, and judgment made about all of it. The idea that say black people or Iraqis would want to live under the tyranny they began with, after the idea of democracy was thrust upon them, that's truly scary and very interesting.
Losing the Horse, this is not Cinemasochistic. It's a movie for people in love with ideas and their manifestations in cinema. We're presented with all the ideas visually and have to extract them afterwards, which makes it compelling. But the film takes on something else once you extract that thesis and go back into it looking for more proof. In this sense, the film was great. Very heady, cerebral, and moving. It says a heck of a lot.
However, the sheer pompous audacity one must have to come to another country and wag their finger at us, shoving pictures of the world trade center in our faces at the end, that's pretty despicable. I guess American film audiences and makers are just getting a taste of their own medicine. How many times have we passed judgment on other countries? Probably too many. And that one ember of American pride in me burns when someone pokes at it, but when I think about it, they're probably right.
Now, as for the aesthetic of the film, the sets or lack thereof and sound design and all the decision making, I don't know what it adds to the idea of the film. The lack of walls, I guess I can see a stretched metaphor, but really that is all just an exercise for von Trier and nothing more. In that way, the film becomes amazing on two levels, instead of one gigantic level. This film is so goddamn interesting, it really reminds me of French New Wave cinema, and how they just kept trying to find new things to do. I think von Trier is his own wave of films.
the first review that made me interested in seeing this :yabbse-thumbup:
I saw this recently, and I thought it was an accomplishment. I thought that it was more complex than Dogville, and I like that von Trier feels free to change the entire meaning of the Grace character (the way I saw it) in this film. In a way, I felt that she represents in Manderlay what was oppressing her in Dogville.
Very, very didactic and very, very entertaining. May the politicized and polemical tradition of Brecht and Godard live on through this "USA Trilogy!"
(P.S. - Someone asked what the chalk-outline/stage set contributes. I'm pretty sure that it is to define the terms of the film and its intentions, so that there is absolutely no mistaking that the filmmaker does not intend what we are seeing to be taken only on the level of "realism" or drama, but to heighten the artificiality to an extreme so that we are visually stimulated and clued in to perceive it in the intended way. This is a love-it-or-hate-it proposition, to be sure, but I found it refreshingly ballsy and decisive, not to mention engaging and frequently beautiful.)
I didn't realize Dogville had been shot in the same manner. I need to see it I guess. But I like your explanation godardian, I guess I should have picked up on it, it's pretty obvious (no offense to your interpretation, but I think it's so right that it was staring me in the face)
Quote from: Gamblour le flambeur on February 20, 2006, 01:44:20 PM
I didn't realize Dogville had been shot in the same manner. I need to see it I guess.
The deconstruction thing plays a much bigger role in Dogville, and I'm sure it would make a whole lot more sense if you saw that movie. In Manderlay it's just kind of taken for granted.
I still think this movie sucks dick.
Come alive forum!
No but I saw it on a top 2006 list and was wondering: for those who saw it months ago, has it festered? Has your appreciation grown? Have you thought about it at all?
I hadn't thought about it once.
Quote from: Losing the Horse: on September 18, 2006, 08:55:11 PM
for those who saw it months ago, has it festered? Has your appreciation grown? Have you thought about it at all?
I still think this movie sucks dick.
well i don't feel this way about it, i know that much...
nice rhythm, good that it was the second installment in the trilogy, not as strong as dogville by any means. that's pretty much my feelings.
oh, and crappy dvd package.