Xixax Film Forum

Surprised to see nobody here watching or discussing this? I know sometimes it takes a while until people give new shows a chance.

I personally didn't care much about it, and then a lot of people told me it was great. After it swept the Emmys last week I decided to give it a shot, and damn it's pretty great. I watched the entire season in one week and now excited for Season 2.

Before watching it I thought it would be just like 24, and even though it was some similarities, it's very well done, well written, great acting. Some of it is predictable, and you seem to know where it will end up, but overall its very well paced and has some great twists along the way that make it extremely entertaining and fun.

Anyone else watching?

I haven't watched the Season 2 premier yet, but I can chime in on Season 1.

Overall it's a good show. Good directing, and Claire Danes is fantastic. It's strange, because I like it, but most of what I have to say will sound complainy. It's like The Walking Dead... the extraordinary potential it has makes this stuff all the more annoying.

There's this odd thing where I know the story has potential and the acting is pretty good, and all the production values are great, but it just doesn't fully connect with me.

MAJOR SEASON 1 SPOILERS

I'm not sure I care about the characters. I feel like I'm watching great acting rather than watching great characters. Breaking Bad is a great contrast; its characters are able to effortlessly capture your sympathies, and even flip them from episode to episode. With Homeland, I felt like the characters should be making that type of connection with me, but it wasn't really happening. Even the most subtly acted characer, Saul, didn't do much for me with his "wife leaving" storyline. Maybe that's because I found her to be an odious, wholly unattractive person, undeserving of Saul's affection in the first place. I find myself relieved that he's rid of her.

All of this shifts my attention to the story. Which is somewhat unfortunate, because much of it was absurd and just too convenient. The terrorist stuff seemed to be realistic enough, but the way Carrie ended up seemed like a cheap and cruel betrayal of her character, all for the sake of some kind of totally undeserved Requiem For A Dream martyrdom moment.

There are so many plot holes. For example, Brody's daughter making the phone call ("little girl, how did you get this number?") did not ring true at all, and there was something specifically implausible about it that I can't remember right now. The most major plot hole: Brody would have been patted down by the secret service. They met him like 5 minutes ago. Even if they did trust him, the secret service doesn't operate based on trust. They would still pat him down. Also, in the days of shoe bombs and rectal devices, why go with something as ridiculous as a suicide vest?

I found myself not left with much except something that was pretty well executed and enjoyable to watch.

Too much emotional manipulation and soap opera stuff going on in the Brody household. The writing was so transparent that I found it impossible to lose myself in those stories.

Random complaints:

- Except in the last couple episodes, Brody's stoner daughter was highly annoying.
- If Brody's son were any more two-dimensional, he would have blown away with the wind.
- I don't like the way they destroyed the subtlety of Carrie's mental illness. It was actually fascinating for a while, but when it exploded like that, I lost most of my interest.

All the political speech, especially in the public statements, was kind of random and stupid. Almost non-sequitur. Politicians in real life are not actually that clunky and cliche, especially at that level.

The vice president's campaign narrative makes no sense whatsoever. Unless he's a former VP and they're still calling him VP, I assume it's the end of his president's second term, since that's the only time VPs run for president. Why, then, does he sound as if he's running against an incumbent, with all the talk about making America great again and restoring this and that. Umm... what? It's as if the writers think everyone's eyes glaze over when a politician appears on screen and they won't pay attention to the words coming out of the characters' mouths. What sloppiness.

I actually wrote this note months ago when I finished Homeland: "If this even begins to overshadow Breaking Bad in terms of end-of-the-year recognition, I'm going to be furious."

Yeah. I watched Season 1 and I liked it. But I do have to hold a grudge against it for winning the Emmy because it is nowhere near the level of MM & BB. It's crazy to me to even have to state that. This show is fine/fun escapism. That's all. Entertaining but pretty silly and soapy at times. I didn't think it was as good as "24" but kept watching anyway for Claire Danes.

I thought the show did a good job at making a premise that should only hold up for a two hour movie last for a full season. Claire Danes is indeed great, but personally I think Mandy Patinkin steals the show. Kudos to the writers for not making the show feel stale yet, but I think it's only possible to maintain that for so long.

I like that it got awards, shows like this deserve more attention. BB has enough accolades, I think it's place in the pop culture pantheon is secure. It's easy to say this doesn't compare to BB or MM, but when you compare it the other way to NCIS/CSI/Mentalist I think it's clear that it stands apart. 

I gave up six or seven episodes in in Season One. Everyone was too hysterical to be watchable.

Quote from: ddiggler on October 01, 2012, 02:15:10 PM
It's easy to say this doesn't compare to BB or MM, but when you compare it the other way to NCIS/CSI/Mentalist I think it's clear that it stands apart.

But those shows (NCIS/CSI/Mentalist) aren't nominated because they are terrible. So yes, Homeland is better than those shows. But it is nowhere near as good as Mad Men or Breaking Bad, the shows it was nominated against.

Agree that BB and MM, especially these past seasons, deserved the awards more... but those shows already won everything so it seems like they don't need more validation. There are many shows that deserved to win multiple times and only won one year because of that reason. Makes no sense, but thats how it is.

^ Except the Emmys never use that logic.

Quote from: modage on October 01, 2012, 02:35:14 PM

Quote from: ddiggler on October 01, 2012, 02:15:10 PM
It's easy to say this doesn't compare to BB or MM, but when you compare it the other way to NCIS/CSI/Mentalist I think it's clear that it stands apart.

But those shows (NCIS/CSI/Mentalist) aren't nominated because they are terrible. So yes, Homeland is better than those shows. But it is nowhere near as good as Mad Men or Breaking Bad, the shows it was nominated against.

Right, I guess my argument was a little simplistic.  It's unfair to judge Homeland against either of those shows because they've both had multiple seasons to cultivate a compelling story arc. If I were to stack up Homeland against only the first season of Breaking Bad, I'd go with Homeland. Mad Men might be a tougher call... The point is that winning an Emmy should pull people away from the NCIS's towards better programming. I think my parents watch NCIS because that's what they expect from TV and aren't aware of anything else. I guarantee that if they sat down and watched Homeland they would enjoy it, but they would never do that without the sort of validation that the Emmy's bring. The Emmy's are silly in general, and shouldn't be taken seriously, but they're worth it if they bring much needed attention to lesser watched shows. If Breaking Bad sweeps every award every year then the Emmy's aren't doing their job. Sure, Breaking Bad might deserve them all, but what is the point?

Quote from: ddiggler on October 01, 2012, 03:27:10 PMIf I were to stack up Homeland against only the first season of Breaking Bad, I'd go with Homeland.

*head explodes*

Quote from: ddiggler on October 01, 2012, 03:27:10 PM
If I were to stack up Homeland against only the first season of Breaking Bad, I'd go with Homeland. Mad Men might be a tougher call...

Haha, why are you stacking it up against the first season of those shows! The Emmys aren't! We're talking about the most recent seasons (or for Breaking Bad, Season 4) vs. Homeland season 1. Of which, there is no contest.

^^ agree. and I like Homeland despite its flaws but it simply isnt in the same caliber or those shows.

Quote from: ddiggler on October 01, 2012, 03:27:10 PM
If Breaking Bad sweeps every award every year then the Emmy's aren't doing their job. Sure, Breaking Bad might deserve them all, but what is the point?

you're saying that like BB swept the emmys but it hasnt, sure Cranston has but they have yet to win best dramatic series.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on October 01, 2012, 03:37:24 PM

Quote from: ddiggler on October 01, 2012, 03:27:10 PMIf I were to stack up Homeland against only the first season of Breaking Bad, I'd go with Homeland.

*head explodes*

Really? Breaking Bad was promising but didn't really cement it's status until towards the end of Season 2 (granted, the writers strike cut Season 1 down). I also wouldn't stack Claire Danes against any of the performances in Breaking Bad and say "no contest", not in any season. You also have to consider that performances are weighed based on a single episode submission, not a season long arc. That alone nullifies their validity, especially when it's applied to a serialized storyline.

The Breaking Bad pilot is widely considered to be one of the best pilots ever aired on TV. It's that rare case of a show that essentially emerged fully-formed. It didn't need several episodes to iron out the production quality, or figure out what its tone is and what its characters are doing.

One of my favorite BB episodes ever is S1E03, when Walt has to deal with Krazy-8 in Jesse's basement, agonizes over whether to kill him (his pro/con list is classic), finds the broken piece of plate missing, etc. That's still some of the most intense stuff the show has ever done.

Season 1 really makes the most of its 7 episodes. Heisenberg is born, Tuco is confronted, and everything is very exciting.

I can't think of one episode of Homeland S1 that I would put above any episode of Breaking Bad S1.

Agree with consensus that Homeland is fun but it's no BB or MM. And season 1 of BB rocked hard.

Also, remember kids:

1. The Emmy's are a joke.
2. The Emmy's serve as nothing more than ads for the winners. Isn't it convenient that Homeland's season 2 premiere was a week after the Emmy's broadcast.
3. I think voters assume if there isn't a big new winner, the broadcast won't be newsworthy. Though given that logic it doesn't make sense why they insist on fellating the mediocre snoozefest that is Modern Family with award after award every year. 

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on October 01, 2012, 05:13:06 PM
The Breaking Bad pilot is widely considered to be one of the best pilots ever aired on TV. It's that rare case of a show that essentially emerged fully-formed. It didn't need several episodes to iron out the production quality, or figure out what its tone is and what its characters are doing.

One of my favorite BB episodes ever is S1E03, when Walt has to deal with Krazy-8 in Jesse's basement, agonizes over whether to kill him (his pro/con list is classic), finds the broken piece of plate missing, etc. That's still some of the most intense stuff the show has ever done.

Season 1 really makes the most of its 7 episodes. Heisenberg is born, Tuco is confronted, and everything is very exciting.

I can't think of one episode of Homeland S1 that I would put above any episode of Breaking Bad S1.

I would put "The Weekend" up against any Season 1 episode, but that's not really the point I'm trying to make. The endless BB comparisons are boring. We get it, Breaking Bad rules, it's easily my favorite show on television. To try and bring another good show like Homeland down because it won a bullshit award over BB is silly.

I know. I don't particularly like pitting one show against another. After all, you can watch them both, so it's kind of silly.

The problem is, the Emmys explicitly pitted Breaking Bad against Homeland, and it happened very recently. That's why we brought it up.

I don't like that nobody is watching Justified. THAT'S ALL

Quote from: ddiggler on October 01, 2012, 06:01:35 PM

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on October 01, 2012, 05:13:06 PM
The Breaking Bad pilot is widely considered to be one of the best pilots ever aired on TV. It's that rare case of a show that essentially emerged fully-formed. It didn't need several episodes to iron out the production quality, or figure out what its tone is and what its characters are doing.

One of my favorite BB episodes ever is S1E03, when Walt has to deal with Krazy-8 in Jesse's basement, agonizes over whether to kill him (his pro/con list is classic), finds the broken piece of plate missing, etc. That's still some of the most intense stuff the show has ever done.

Season 1 really makes the most of its 7 episodes. Heisenberg is born, Tuco is confronted, and everything is very exciting.

I can't think of one episode of Homeland S1 that I would put above any episode of Breaking Bad S1.

I would put "The Weekend" up against any Season 1 episode, but that's not really the point I'm trying to make. The endless BB comparisons are boring. We get it, Breaking Bad rules, it's easily my favorite show on television. To try and bring another good show like Homeland down because it won a bullshit award over BB is silly.

SPOILERS up to S2E1

It's not really fair to compare shows especially comparing a show to BB.  With this it's different for me, cause I think Homeland could be a really great show but it's failure is one that BB excels at. I was watching the first episode of the second season and really getting into it but then it's weakness pops up which the latter seasons of 24 had.  The terrorist are all knowing. They somehow know everything about everything before it even happens. Once it seems they have someone cornered and about to spring a trap it's actually the terrorist who is doing the trapping with an exploding briefcase. I was getting really into the season 2 premiere when all of a sudden a woman shows up that knows there is a safe in the CIA directors office, knows the information inside and the combination.  There are just these huge loose ends that will probably be covered up in the future with the explanation of there is a spy in the CIA which 24 did multiple seasons.  I stopped watching it but there seemed to be 2 or 3 seasons with the revelation of a spy at CTU.  BB has these huge plot twist and turns but they tie up loose ends as best as humanely possible. So when I compare BB to Homeland it's not comparing the quality of the shows but rather comparing the weakness of one and the strength of the other.

This is true of a lot of shows but how you deal with what happens after the confrontation or plot peak needs to be thought out just as carefully as how you got to the climax. They treat the climax and everything leading up to it as what's important and the resolution or what happens after it is an after thought. Last season's whole terror plot didn't make any sense to me. Why would you go through the trouble/risk of capturing and turning a military sniper in order to have him purposely miss the target? The second turned terrorist job was to miss the vice president in order to get the entire entourage in a single room. Anyone could have been the sniper if all they had to do was miss.

MILD SPOILERS

In general I'm really liking this season so far. I think it's improving. Dana is still annoying, but that's alright I guess. I'm enjoying this particular parallel:

Homeland: He knows!
Dexter: She knows!
Breaking Bad: He knows!

Anyway, there's one big problem facing Homeland right now. Vince Gilligan said it best: Coincidences are fine as long as they don't benefit your protagonists. Homeland is violating this rule with wild abandon. Just in the last episode, all of the major protagonists were graced with ground-shifting miraculous coincidences: Brody/Nazir, Carrie, and Saul. It wouldn't be such a problem if these events weren't driving the plot. It's all fairly clever and entirely possible, but after a while it begins to feel cheap. (In stark contrast to Breaking Bad, the plot points don't flow from the characters.) I hope they can correct that, because I want this show to be great.

SPOILERS up to S2E1

There are plotholes aplenty in last season for sure. Like we've been saying, this is a show that's a lot of fun as long as you don't take it too seriously. I still don't fully understand why Carrie would allow herself to fall for a guy she's so convinced is a terrorist, but I let that go a while ago.

You could argue that Breaking Bad is equally unbelievable, but it's so damn well executed that I never have to remind myself to suspend disbelief as I do when watching Homeland.

Quote from: ©brad on October 11, 2012, 12:41:50 PM
SPOILERS up to S2E1

I still don't fully understand why Carrie would allow herself to fall for a guy she's so convinced is a terrorist

Haven't seen the show and had no business reading this, but for a second I thought I'd stumbled into the, "Days of Our Lives" thread.

The show was definitely like that at times, but with the gloss of high production value. Thankfully, I think they're getting more serious now.

That's good to hear. Even if they go on a shark jumping spree, I'll still watch because this is all we have until Mad Men. I do want to start watching Justified and finally start The Shield. Any thoughts on which should I do first?

SPOILERS up to S2E2

Well dayum, this last episode was a doozy. All the problems we've been talking about remain. There were so many coincidences I lost count. I don't want to criticize too much because all the awesome makes up for sloppy.

- Carrie running back inside the apartment complex reached Breaking Bad levels of intensity. Holy hell.
- You have to give it to Claire Danes. Her panic attack and speech on the roof was so well done.
- That ending! I love how this show isn't afraid to play its cards too soon. Other writers might have stretched out Sal finding out about Brody for another season, but nope. Episode 2. Bam. The question now is, how many episodes can they go before the whole CIA knows? How long will it take Sal to relay it to Carrie and then the CIA? Does the CIA try and flip Brody back to their side? Does something happen to Sal in Beirut that prevents him from communicating this?
- Brody's ascent to a viable vice-presidential candidate is impossible to believe. As is him just happening to be there at the Pentagon when the operation was going down, as is him getting cell phone signal in that room, as is oh whatever, it still rocked. 

I feel exactly the same way. The good outweighed the bad, and it was a very exciting and well-made episode. I think we can expect more of this.

SPOILERS

But yeah, the show still faces a credibility problem with basically all the political content in my opinion, especially Brody's unlikely rise to power. We haven't had one single scene of him working as a legislator, which he supposedly is, so it seems like a fantasy that's not actually happening. It makes no sense that he would be considered for VP without a legislative record and more than 6 months of experience. (Obama served 8 years in the Illinois Senate, then 4 years in the U.S. Senate, and people still questioned his experience and felt like he came out of nowhere.) If you're going to try to pull that, at least give us scenes in which he's being trumped up as an American hero by the media and his colleagues. We haven't had any content like that since, what, the beginning of Season 1? As it stands, there's no reason for his success other than divine intervention. That whole premise still feels false right now. I genuinely hope they can turn it around.

The way they handle his inner turmoil is great, though. It's about 10 times more credible than the political stuff.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on October 12, 2012, 12:32:56 PMThe way they handle his inner turmoil is great, though. It's about 10 times more credible than the political stuff.

This is the truth. The writers have to know this too. They're too smart in other areas not to.

New episode, new assortment of plot holes and stark implausibilities. I won't even get into it. At the same time, I enjoyed it, and there was some incredible acting. This show confuses me.

Yeah I'm not liking how Nazir keeps putting his MOLE VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE in dangerous situations.

I'm feeling weird about all the sticking up I did for this show earlier, but the acting is still winning me over. Patinkin is giving a thankless performance but his character anchors the show. None of it would work without his presence.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on October 15, 2012, 02:10:36 AM
New episode, new assortment of plot holes and stark implausibilities. I won't even get into it. At the same time, I enjoyed it, and there was some incredible acting. This show confuses me.

couldnt agree more, specially the stark implausibilities of...

Quote from: ddiggler on October 15, 2012, 11:14:14 PM
...how Nazir keeps putting his MOLE VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE in dangerous situations.

seriously, that was just too much.

fortunately, the Carrie/Saul story line is great and so far really satisfying, e.g. the custom guys in Lebanon not taking the video and Saul showing it first to Carrie because she deserves it. fuckin' A.

This show is full on sprinting and I like it! Last night was another good episode with a fantastic ending.


EP 4 Spoilers

- How can they possibly maintain this pace!? I trust the writers I guess but how?
- So Brody will become a double agent now, working for both CIA and Nazir?
- So much of this show shouldn't work but does. Carrie's "I loved you" in the last scene in the wrong actor's hands would be so soap opera-y but Claire Danes nails it (and probably earns herself another Emmy).
- What's going on with the daughter's relationship with the VP son?
- Is it assumed Carrie has officially been reinstated? Or is this all just temporary?
- I'm too lazy to look up his name but the new guy running surveillance (Quinn?) and Carrie are totally going to bone, and he will probably die.

E4 spoilers

I agree on all points.

This streak of unpredictability is really impressive. I have to think things will calm down eventually, otherwise the show will be forced to stretch credibility even more than it has (though this episode was a turn toward credibility). I would be perfectly fine with some quiet stretches.

I too loved that final scene. The best comment I've read about it: "Carrie is the one who knocks."

I like the VP's son. Anyone is an improvement on Xander, really. Also, Dana's likability rating has increased a few points now that she's ditching Xander.

I can't wait for the breakup scene, and Xander's response. "But who will I get high with now?" Dana: "I'm sure you'll find someone." Xander, hanging his head slightly, shuffles away.

E5 Spoilers




y'all still like Finn?


Nothing like the point in a series' where it earns a scene that is nearly 10 minutes of one actor talking that is as mesmerizing as what we had tonite.

I think this show HAS to have a solid plan, or else why hatch these revelations and dramatic points, such as Carrie giving Brody what-for last week, unless you're really confident you have some powerful stuff waiting in the rest of the season?

E6 Spoilers


- I'm struggling with Dana's storyline. Thematically I don't see how it ties into anything else. I will give kudos to the actress playing Dana, she was terrific in the hospital scene, but overall I'm not really invested in this or Mike's storyline for that matter.
- A lot of people are criticizing the big Die Hard shootout at the end but I don't know, implausibility-wise it's pretty much par for the course with this show.
- I'm hungry for an episode when Carrie doesn't have a complete meltdown.
- Again, are we to assume Carrie has been reinstated? It's a little puzzling they haven't addressed this.

Once again, I completely agree with all of that.

I think they're trying to make Dana grow up a little faster so they can develop her into a full character. That's my theory, at least.

I don't care about Mike, but I think it's fine as long as they don't devote too much time to him. As the AV Club reviewer said, it's not really a compelling plot (yet?), because he's so behind what the viewers know. And frankly, even when Mike is helping, he's inserting himself into that family to an uncomfortable degree that gets slightly creepy at times, so he's not that likeable either. I think we are supposed to like him.

I really do think they have to conserve Carrie's meltdowns. This last one didn't really ring true for me. Are the writers trying to rekindle the romance?

I think it's essentially beside the point whether Carrie is officially/permanently reinstated. (Though I think she probably is.) It's exactly like the X-Files. When Mulder was fired or they shut down the X-Files, he and Scully still went on investigating. I guess there are more personal stakes for Carrie, but they've already explored that quite thoroughly, so I don't think they'll play with it again for a while. (And if they do, it'll feel cheap.)

im also not crazy about Mike's or Dana's storylines but...


wonder if Jessica telling Mike that Brody is working with the CIA will somehow backfire the agency's efforts to discover/stop Nazir's plan....

and in the same way, will Dana's guilt indirectly affect the veep aspirations?


we'll see if they eventually become crucial.

This reminds me so much of 24... when Jack Bauer is always right and they always treat him like she doesn't know what the fuck he is talking about... he always has to go out of his way to prove himself, so does Carrie.

Her cry baby face is a little too much at this point. Every episode. But its part of the game.

That fucking VP son is as douchey as his dad.

So anyone want to talk about this past episode?

I feel like Brody is playing the long game and his allegiance remains with Nazir. The VP continues to undermine him and treat him like ass. This along with the CIA's micro-managing his every move will push him back in Nazir's corner. Some other randoms:

- Dana will most definitely tell mom Dad has been working with Carrie. Yikes.
- I like the actress who plays Nadine. The scenes with her and Saul were great.
- Carrie didn't have an emotional breakdown! Yay.

SPOILERS

I actually don't see Brody going back to Nazir's side. He may be frustrated with the CIA, but Carrie is totally on it, always trying to massage his anxieties out of him... and remember he's actually more frustrated with Nazir. His willingness to cooperate with Nazir, and his motivations behind that, seem to have faded almost entirely. And it was tenuous from the start. If there's to be any twist, it will be that Nazir expected Brody to turn, and is playing him and the CIA. Or something like that.

Yeah you're probably right. So Nazir will likely start feeding Brody false information to throw the CIA off the trail.

Here's another question; does Brody survive this season?

I would bet on it.

SPOILERS


- The last 15 minutes were awesome.
- Honestly why would they let Carrie follow Brodie after the whole motel debacle? She's proven she doesn't obey orders. It's getting annoying, either keep her in the goddamn surveillance room or don't be surprised when she goes off on her own.
- Dana's kind of a jerk now. I can't take anymore of her crying "I killed someone!" scenes. Enough already.
- Chris the son continues to be the most useless character on TV. Why even have him at all?
- I want more out of Saul. Finn and everyone else is rendering him impotent.
- I love how Carrie played it when she walked back into the CIA room after finding out they all heard her have sex with Brody. She ultimately didn't care and it was great.

Quote from: ©brad on November 19, 2012, 10:30:39 AM
SPOILERS

- Honestly why would they let Carrie follow Brodie after the whole motel debacle? She's proven she doesn't obey orders. It's getting annoying, either keep her in the goddamn surveillance room or don't be surprised when she goes off on her own.

That's why I keep thinking of Jack Bauer when I watch this. Same thing. And she is always right. They never listen, then she was right. Why don't they listen in the first place?

Quote from: ©brad on November 19, 2012, 10:30:39 AM
SPOILERS

- Dana's kind of a jerk now. I can't take anymore of her crying "I killed someone!" scenes. Enough already.

I wonder if they are going somewhere with all that story because its annoying.

Quote from: ©brad on November 19, 2012, 10:30:39 AM
SPOILERS

- Chris the son continues to be the most useless character on TV. Why even have him at all?

He is also the ant-Brody. Such a nerd.

Mike is also sort of useless. I wonder if they will find something exciting for him. He's all alone, has no power and his life sucks.

The writing template for this show seems to be: Let Carrie go, tell her to hold back, have her ignore you, rinse and repeat. It's basically happened in every single episode this season.

Poor Saul, his face when she was fucking Brody reached almost comical levels of sadness.

Can we talk about last sunday's episode because I'm kind of confused:

SPOILERS


- I'm not fully understanding this reveal of Quinn and who he's talking to on the bus. So Quinn is a black-ops guy who's objective from the get-go was to murder Brody if they don't capture Nazir? What is the main reason the CIA would want Brody dead, in case Brody ever came clean to everything?
- Do we believe Brody? We're meant to of course, but the praying part with Nazir that he carefully didn't mention could be something, or just a red herring.
- While I'm on Brody, I'm really starting to feel for the guy more than I ever had. The dude has nothing now and continues to get used and screwed over by everyone he knows. Many are predicting he won't survive this season but part of me hopes he does.
- Is there not another vehicle more conspicuous than nondescript black vans? Carrie, Virgil and what'shisass are always in these vans that are so obviously CIA and the terrorists and Brody residence never seems to notice.
- I cheered when Mike put the smack down on Dana in her room. So over her.
- And sweet Christ, the Chris character is USELESS. The writers aren't even trying. His lines are always so goddamn cheesy, and he's completely oblivious to everything that's happening in his family. He's just happy to find Miami up by 5 points and flat screens in every room.

Quote from: ©brad on November 27, 2012, 08:27:04 AM
Can we talk about last sunday's episode because I'm kind of confused:

SPOILERS


- I'm not fully understanding this reveal of Quinn and who he's talking to on the bus. So Quinn is a black-ops guy who's objective from the get-go was to murder Brody if they don't capture Nazir? What is the main reason the CIA would want Brody dead, in case Brody ever came clean to everything?
- Do we believe Brody? We're meant to of course, but the praying part with Nazir that he carefully didn't mention could be something, or just a red herring.
- While I'm on Brody, I'm really starting to feel for the guy more than I ever had. The dude has nothing now and continues to get used and screwed over by everyone he knows. Many are predicting he won't survive this season but part of me hopes he does.
- Is there not another vehicle more conspicuous than nondescript black vans? Carrie, Virgil and what'shisass are always in these vans that are so obviously CIA and the terrorists and Brody residence never seems to notice.
- I cheered when Mike put the smack down on Dana in her room. So over her.
- And sweet Christ, the Chris character is USELESS. The writers aren't even trying. His lines are always so goddamn cheesy, and he's completely oblivious to everything that's happening in his family. He's just happy to find Miami up by 5 points and flat screens in every room.

SPOILERS

The guy he met on the bus was the leader of quinn's Black opp team. I think Quinn's role was to kill Brody once they captured, killed or stopped Nazir.  They want him dead cause he is both a terrorist and a liability. Once he helps them capture Nazir they don't want him around.  He admittedly came close to blowing up the vice president.

I too have started to feel for Brody.  He's getting shit on from three sides: his family, cia, nazir.  Its better for the show to have him as the sympathetic character than Carry who was in season 1. I do believe Brody but I wouldn't be surprised to find out if he's been playing both sides. I wouldn't think leaving out the praying is anything but then you add that to that look he gave when he and Carry hugged after the assault at the tailors makes a little hesitant to trust him completely.

I really liked Dana but the past few episodes she's been annoying. 

Quote from: ©brad on November 27, 2012, 08:27:04 AM
Spoilers.

- I cheered when Mike put the smack down on Dana in her room. So over her.

Spoils...

haha, Mike cracks me up. He's like a broke Channing Tatum. He's really dumb, but in an endearing way. The emergency brake is on and he doesn't understand why the car won't go and he's like, "I don't know what's going on, but I'm going to get to the bottom of this." He's that type of guy.

I also don't know what Jessica see's in him other than him being the worlds greatest carpooler. It made me laugh when Jessica and the kids are in the CIA safehouse and the CIA lady is like, "you're not in danger." but Mike still stands guard by the window because the CIA might be wrong. Then he see's Jessica's boobs and falls asleep. Jessica had to get up to check on her kids because boobs made Mike leave his post. It's like when you're trying to break into a junkyard and you throw the guard dogs a steak to make them forget what they were doing. That's how Mike is with boobs. It happens.

Quote from: ©brad on November 27, 2012, 08:27:04 AM
Spoilers.

- And sweet Christ, the Chris character is USELESS. The writers aren't even trying. His lines are always so goddamn cheesy, and he's completely oblivious to everything that's happening in his family. He's just happy to find Miami up by 5 points and flat screens in every room.

Chris is one of those gentle kids who, if his parents are fighting and his pops splits to the bar to blow off some steam, he goes up to his mom trying desperately to hold back tears and asks, "Where's dad? Are you going to get a divorce? Did I do something wrong?"

Grow a pair, kid. He's going to be the type of man who holds the door open for a random woman and her boyfriend and ends up getting stuck holding it open for everyone exiting the movie theater.

Dana made a brief comeback for me (I think it was dumping Xander that did it), but now I'm sort of done with her too. Mike's smack down was possibly the most exciting moment of the episode. But I guess I'd be open to another Dana comeback. As a first step, she needs to wrest control of her eyebrows.

Two episodes left. I think Brody will be alive. Nazir not so sure. Quinn probably not.

That thing with the VP? Seemed way too easy.

Spoils.

Yeah, what the fuck was up with that? Some dude hacked a pacemaker using only the serial number? This show is getting kind of silly now. The Abu Nazir being in the USA plotline is awful. The far more interesting plotline is the Quinn, Estes and the Black Ops stuff. That should have been the focus, not Abu Nazir in the states.

SPOILS

Here's an interview (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/02/homeland-brody-kills_n_2213510.html) with the creator and the writer of this episode in which they try and defend Nazir in the states. They also defend accusations that the show is turning into 24. Their arguments are not very convincing.

AVClub's recap makes a great case that this show is much better at paying off character arcs than it is with plot. If you think about the plotting in last night's episode that led to the VP's death - Nazir single-handedly t-boning Carrie with an SUV, dragging her out of the car, keeping her captive in a mill, using her as bait to get Brody to find a serial number on a wifi-enabled pacemaker so Nazir can hack into it and kill the VP, well, just typing all that makes me feel dumber. But the character moments all this nonsense led to - Brody coming face to face with Walden, pushing that phone away, all leading to maybe my favorite line of the season: "... I'm killing you." Well, all that stuff was pure awesome. So I don't know. This show continues to confuse me. We just have to accept all the ridiculousness and go along for the ride.

There is one problem the show has that has only been amplified with this season. A friend posted this on another board and I couldn't agree more:

"The show doesn't present any alternative view of Islam. It wouldn't be that hard to have a Muslim CIA agent or another character representing a different perspective. I expect Nazir to have an extremist perspective, but in the universe of season 2 Homeland, all Muslims are extremist terrorists who want to exterminate America. Even superficially moderate Muslims, like Roya, turn out to be secretly working for Nazir. It's so boring.

I think season 1 was different, even though there was no ongoing Muslim character who wasn't a terrorist. It seemed to have a more nuanced view of Islam, and what the CIA was doing. Even Abu Nazir wasn't a straightforward bad guy, but was complicated by shades of grey. This season, he comes off as a moustache-twirling villain, and the war on terror has been reduced to a simple war of East vs West."

SPOILERS

I agree about Nazir having lost some value. He was originally a complex figure, but now he's straightforwardly evil. His speech to Carrie this episode, where he talked about his people's determination and grit and whatnot, was brilliant and sort of perfect until the very last line — "we will exterminate you" — which ruined it all. What a disappointment.

The upcoming Saul plotline sort of bothers me. I feel like putting a protagonist's job at risk is a weak card to play, and this show has already done five seasons worth of that with Carrie. It also feels like they're putting one of our favorite characters in peril to arbitrarily ratchet things up.

Dana's eyebrows are still going haywire. Fix them, and only then can you fix the rest of the show.

All of that said, I'm still really enjoying Homeland, and the plot turns excite me more than they bother me. Maybe it's generally working for me because I had low expectations for Season 2, because of my innumerable problems with Season 1.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on December 04, 2012, 01:50:23 PM


All of that said, I'm still really enjoying Homeland, and the plot turns excite me more than they bother me. Maybe it's generally working for me because I had low expectations for Season 2, because of my innumerable problems with Season 1.

SPOILERS

I've thought about that myself and if that is why I'm enjoying this season.


I'm actually surprised by all the hate this season is getting. Last season I couldn't understand or see the love the show was getting.  A quarter or a third of a way through this season I finally could see it.  Although maybe not as good as they were saying, I could understand how some people could really love the show.  Now that I'm finally on the side of the show, they flipped on me. I just don't understand it when I see quotes like "Homeland: From Almost "The Wire" to Almost "Starsky & Hutch" in Ten Short Weeks." 


All the plot holes from the last episode, I think have been consistent with the entire series. They never explained how Tom Walker knew he was being set up so instead sent another homeless guy with a bomb.  The Tom Walker character never made any sense to me at all. Why would you need a military trained sniper to miss a shot? Why risk having him around at all when you have Brody coming back as a hero? 

I think the biggest plot hole in the last episode had to do with Saul's character. Saul is the smartest character on the show.  He figured who Quinn is and what he's really doing there but didn't realize why Carrie was kidnapped? Moments after you spoil Nazir's terrorist plot, Carrie is kidnapped. It's obvious Nazir kidnapped Carrie as a bargaining chip to get out of the country or to get back at Brody or threaten Carrie in order to get Brody to do something.  Saul is smart enough to figure that out and as soon as they realized she was kidnapped, he should have had Brody brought in and kept under observation. Last thing Saul would have done is would have allowed Brody a meeting with the man he's tried to kill before. 

This week's episode was definitely the series worst. Bad writing, bad acting, bad.

I agree, Brando. Season 2 is so much stronger, even counting this most recent episode. I was actually sold from Episode 1 of this season and have had very few reservations throughout. By contrast, Season 1 was fairly ridiculous. It has at least double the plot holes, and it was sort of bad at character development, but I think people have just forgotten. And the end of the season was laughable. (Like I was saying here (http://xixax.com/index.php?topic=12344.msg319456#msg319456).)

I think we might find out that Saul has a few theories that he's currently keeping close to the vest, for obvious trust reasons. (For example, it's notable that he wasn't completely freaking out about Carrie being missing.)

Someone needs to acknowledge my eyebrows theory, or I'm going to keep bringing it up.

for as exceptional as the beginning of this season was, it's really lost momentum to the point where i almost don't want to watch anymore.  brody's entire family is beyond obnoxious at this point and the only thing i want to see happen to them is painful, but quick death so i don't have to spend anymore time with them, but not before seeing the wife naked like 17 more times.  and that they're such assholes, even the retarded son, makes brody's plight even dumber.

showing carrie running off on a cell phone camera like that?  "swear on my son's soul!!!!"  come the fuck on.  unless some crazy shit (i have a feeling f murray abraham is going to pull something ridiculous) goes down in these next couple episodes i'm pretty much done.   

Yikes. That Dana scene did more damage to her character than anything ever. How ridiculous was that? Out of character ridiculous, even for her. Since when is Dana supposed to be a horrible and absurd human being who doesn't understand anything? This whole "hating dad" plot follows from nothing. (She wants to go to school, but she can't because of national security or something, and it's so unfair. First world problems much? What a brat. A whiny, logic-free, ex-stoner, manslaughtering brat with ungovernable eyebrows.) Remember how Dana and her dad have bonded through most of the series, in the Qu'ran burying scene for example? And that time she convinced him to come home instead of dying? Since when does she prefer Mike? That came from absolutely nowhere. Dana's last encounter with Mike was awkward at best. None of that makes any sense. And the spilt milk was included just to insult the audience.

- Thank you. Dana's character is a schizophrenic failure on the writer's part. What is so hard to understand - your dad is working with the CIA and you might be in danger so you have to chill in this awesome pad (flatscreens!) and skip school. Boo hoo. Oh and by the way, given you killed someone a few weeks ago and you're not in jail, maybe don't act like some entitled jerk complaining about how everything sucks all the time. Jesus. 
- I'm surprised my eyes didn't get stuck from rolling so much. Carrie only getting one guy with her in the Mill as the other agents inexplicably somewhere else was a horror movie trope at its worst. And why wasn't Carrie armed? And shouldn't the CIA have dogs? why would Nazir have stayed in that Mill to begin with? And how did the field agent experts not find Nazir behind that wall but Carrie did? 
- In fact, everything to do with The Mill And Nazir was the nadir of the show so far. I'm done complaining about plausibility at this point, but everything any character did in that Mill made absolutely no sense. I'm fine with this show being ridiculous (Breaking Bad is equally so at times) but now it's just being dumb, and there are so many glaring plot holes that it's hard to see how they can redeem themselves in next week's finale (I'll happily eat my words if I'm proven wrong).

Spoils.

Has there ever been a show that went from so good to so bad in the span of only 2 and 1/2 episodes? I'm actually glad Abu Nazir is dead because, while at first it was the best part of the show, it suddenly became the worst and now they can move onto other things.

Also Dana's eyebrows have now taken on a life of their own. JB called it.

^ Thank you. The eyebrows were actually operating at their peak a few weeks ago, when Dana was reeling from the manslaughter (the eyebrows primarily express inner turmoil), but they are undoubtedly still going, even though I didn't outright notice them this episode. I'm probably desensitized.

Quote from: ©brad on December 10, 2012, 10:00:06 AMAnd shouldn't the CIA have dogs?

Wow, didn't think of that. This could be the biggest plot hole of the series so far. Of course they would have used dogs, who would have easily found Nazir.

Quote from: S.R. on December 10, 2012, 10:54:41 AM
Has there ever been a show that went from so good to so bad in the span of only 2 and 1/2 episodes?

Twin Peaks still holds the record with one episode. But yeah this is pretty catastrophic. The real question is: has a show ever gotten terrible and bounced back 100% to former greatness? (Not like, it's better than it was ie: less terrible but full-on great again?)

Problem with the show is that as much as I get annoyed during the episode with some of these holes and idiotic plotlines, and get even angrier when I read everyone discussing here, the show is still entertaining as hell. There is still good tension around what will happen, especially when it comes to Brody. He is one of the two main characters, but it pretty much makes no sense that he survives next week. My bet is that he will. If he did or didn't, the show would have to take a whole different direction regardless.

So the wholes are there, but the show still works and entertains. That means the majority of people don't even see any problems with it and the show will continue to thrive. So until these problems make the show boring and the majority of viewers start noticing, not sure if they will even try to fix it. By then it will be too late.

Quote from: Kal on December 10, 2012, 12:15:03 PM
Problem with the show is that as much as I get annoyed during the episode with some of these holes and idiotic plotlines, and get even angrier when I read everyone discussing here, the show is still entertaining as hell.

Absolutely. Maybe it's like Dexter now; you're not supposed to take it too seriously.

Again I don't mind the show being ridiculous. I just don't like such lazy, sloppy plotting, especially when we know what these writers are capable of.

FINALE SPOILERS

"But the reason we wanted Walden and Nazir both dead is we wanted to open the possibility that Brody and Carrie could have a happy ending, that their doomed romance was not doomed after all. The only way to make that happen was to off these two antagonists.
So we've sort of left the thriller aspects of the show behind and now we come to a very personal story about Carrie and Brody and all the obstacles that lie in the way of them being together. That is what the finale is about. It's a real character study of these two people, where they've come from, how they regard each other, and whether or not there's a future for them." - The writers (http://insidetv.ew.com/2012/12/09/homeland-death-season-finale-exclusive/).  :shock:

I'm not surprised. It could work, too.

"One thing I would encourage people to do is remember the Issa episode last year? There was a similar like, 'Oh my God.' Then you realized after the finale how important that episode was. You realize that without Brody's connection to Issa, none of it would be comprehensible." The writers.

Yeah the show basically hinges on Brody wanting to avenge Issa's death, a kid we met for one episode last season. Meanwhile, Brody barely gives half a shit about his own kids' well-being.

Arghhhh I need to stop. This show does stupid and awesome in almost equal measure. Last night's ep gave us some good stuff too. Jessica and Brody's breakup in the car was a fantastic scene. Saul getting angry and dropping f-bombs is always fun. Roya taking Carrie down in the interrogation room was chilling. What is everyone predicting for next week? Brody dying is the obvious ending. I wouldn't be surprised if Carrie defends Brody by killing Quinn, or if Brody dies and Saul/Carrie team up to take Estes down. If Brody and Carrie run away together? Eh, okay I guess. If Brody does get killed and Carrie finds out she's pregnant I'm throwing my TV into the Hudson River.

I agree. The show still has these amazing, intense, unpredictable moments. No matter how silly it gets, I think it will still have those, because they absolutely know how to do that. Again, it's kind of like Dexter in that way.

I absolutely bought Brody killing the VP. Brody hated everything he stood for and was basically gritting his teeth every time they met. (And honestly, he probably prevented a lot of death and destruction by going through with that.)

Brody won't die. They've been setting up the Brody/Carrie thing for too long.

I hope Saul organizes his own unauthorized elite spy force to assist Carrie. Why not? If the show's gonna get silly, it needs to have some fun.

Finally caught up! 

So this show is 24, right?  It's literally 24 that can say fuck and show tits and not pretend it's all happening on the same day. 

At this point, I want the season finale to be a bottle episode where Chris and Mike hang out all day, watching basketball and playing hearts, with Dana periodically wandering in front of the camera like Fred Armisen's Governor Patterson impression on SNL.  All that messy espionage drama can hold until next year.

And if they ever question Galves' loyalty again, I'm burning this motherfucker to the ground.

Dana literally crying over spilled milk... it's almost as if that actress did something to the writers for them to treat her character this poorly. Since when does any kid that age want to go to school?

Brody's story is essentially finished, and they've run out of drama for his family life. I hope they don't kill him off though, since it's been telegraphed so much. The show has mostly succeeded at catching me off guard so I hope they don't drop the ball there. Carrie's lip quivering is bordering on self parody, and how many times can a character ignore authority? She gets away with it because she's usually right and gets results, but only at the expense of the raging incompetence of everyone around her. A child could have found Nazir in that mill.

Saul is a fantastic character though, and they've done a good job getting me invested in Quinn as well.

Okay that finale was pretty badass.

word.

Except for the dialogue in the Carrie/Brody goodbye scene that would have made Stephenie Meyer question her sensibilities as a writer, I agree.  I love that the show's actually willing to shake things up to this extent.

Has there ever been a show that went from so good to so bad to so good in the span of 4 episodes?

Loved
- How quiet and almost boring the first 30 minutes were, only to blow everything up (literally) later on.
- Speaking of, the bomb scared the bajeebus out of me.
- Quinn.
- The release of Brody's confession tape was brilliant, leading to a truly heartbreaking scene of the family watching it live. Even Chris stepped up to the plate and actually showed a modicum of human emotion. This could make for some compelling stuff next season; how will this family cope knowing what they think is true about their father. Those kids are going to be f'ed up.
- "You're the smartest and dumbest fucking person I know."
- The end with Saul and Carrie. This relationship is the foundation of the show to me, not Carrie and Brody. When Saul says "He's a guy who strapped a bomb to his chest, always will be" I cheered.
- Lots of speculation online that Nazir must have a mole in the CIA who moved the car, and maybe Nazir's people got caught on purpose in episode 9 to get the C4 in CIA territory.
- All I wanted was an unexpected ending and I think we got one.

Didn't Love
- Polka I agree on the dialogue. The scene that got me the most was Quinn's "I kill bad guys" showdown at Estes house. Also the whole "I'm just going to hide in the dark in your house until you get home" schitck, total ugh. I did like the idea of Quinn turning on Estes, just not the execution.
- Brody and Carrie playing house as if Brody didn't just kill the vice-president. Carrie being perfectly fine with this is troubling for a character so obsessed with keeping America safe.
- So I guess they don't do any kind of bomb search of cars when you go to Langley? Um okay.
- The shot of Saul praying surrounded by all those body bags was all the more eery given the recent tragedy in Connecticut. No wonder Showtime put up that warning.

FINALE SPOILERS

It was pretty great. It was obvious something fucked up had to happen, but they executed it in an amazing way.

As always, one of the greatest parts of the episode and storilines was Saul. He is now the big man. The boss. His wife is coming home. Carrie is alive. When everything else went to shit, Saul is the big winner here.

But what's next? Seeing that video on TV and how quickly everything points at Brody makes it almost 100% certain he had nothing to do with it. Or did he?

I watched the first season the week before the second one started, so I've been on a Homeland high for 4 months. It will be shitty to wait 9 months.

SPOILERS

Since Saul and Carrie know that the video was created for the terrorist plot that did not get executed, do you think they'll be able to clear Brody's name?
Anyways. I think this was a very good season, and the whole conversation Carrie and Abu Nazir had about fighting for their beliefs was a bit on the nose, yet plays into the bigger idea that even with the "big bad" gone, the war's not going to stop.
While this season wasn't always a psychological chess game like the last one, I still always found it to be thought-provoking and suspenseful in more emotional ways.

Season 3 Trailer




There's very little dialogue but I think it shows too much.

I really hope its awesome. Can't wait.

Anyone watching this fucking show?

I'm sticking with it but man, Claire Danes's performance is self-parody at this point. She has a freakout every millisecond. I can't take a whole season of this. Didn't she just stabilize at the end of last season and start kicking ass, only to revert back to crazy Carrie?

The Brody family is booooooring. The mom joins her son Chris as one of the most useless characters on TV. Dana is still an asshole. Her sex scene in the laundry room with all those sheets billowing out of the dryer felt like a bad music video.

These writers continue to show they can pull a good punch here and there but there's so much fuckery that comes along with it. I think I'm going to start watching the Americans soon.

I think I gave up on this show at the end of last season without even realizing I had done so. I still basically liked it, but I've had zero desire to start watching the new season since it started up. They've hit their season six of Dexter in only their third season. That's efficiency.

The Americans is overall really good. It might make it to season four before I give up on it.

Remember when this show beat "Breaking Bad" and "Mad Men" at the Emmys? #neverforget

The second episode just felt like a bad soap opera. Nothing happened at all.

Brody's family is useless and the storyline with Dana and the psycho from Dexter who also plays a psycho here is just boring and stupid and has nothing to do with any of the interesting topics they used to focus on.

Saul's whole attitude just makes no sense. Is he an asshole or is he not? Does he have a plan? His fucking expression never changes.

Carrie is just ridiculous. She can't even explain anything because she is nuts. If she can't even explain things then she would be taking her meds.

Interesting episode. Not sure it fully worked but I liked the Brody section.

I really don't understand why the writers decided to commit Carrie. Last season ended with Sal being so relieved she survived, and now they're at war and Carrie's back to being crazy. I don't see how she could ever work for the CIA again at this point.

so glad i stopped watching this show after season 1.

You miss good things. The Q&A episode in season 2 is great. And season 3 has a very good beginning.

The only conclussion other than this show has jumped the shark is that Breaking Bad ruined everything for me. The writing is always bad compared to it.

Quote from: Kal on October 15, 2013, 11:45:52 PM
The only conclussion other than this show has jumped the shark is that Breaking Bad ruined everything for me. The writing is always bad compared to it.

but yeah, the show jumped the shark during season 1 when its writers kept going "ahhhh tricked ya! ok but seriously..... NOPE! tricked ya again! where are we going with this show? do you know? we know. do we though? ahhh tricked ya!"

when the season finale was over, i was out.

I read "useless" a lot about Homeland. But I couldn't explain what happened with the terrorists or whatever, and I never cared about it. Yeah, it became a soap opera. Six Feet Under is a soap opera too. I enjoy this season because the characters are ruined. And I like these characters. I want to see how they react, how they live after everything. How there is no hope for them. Or if there is? well, I want to see it. Homeland is in a corner right now. Carrie and Brody could kill themselves; they're trapped, have nothing to do, and their distress touch me. I'm curious to watch the next episode...they could have ended the show with the last episode, The Tower of David.

Anyway, Homeland is not Dexter. It's good. It's not a joke.

They are obviously milking Carrie's mental illness now. It was one of the most interesting parts of Season 2, and an ideal vehicle for Claire Daines to shine, but now it feels like it's that thing they have lying around when they're not sure how else to create drama.

Some other major problems right now. Employment drama is tiresome, and it's arguably been a weak point of the series all along. (Will Carrie lose her job? Will Carrie get her job back?) Psych ward drama is even more tiresome, and they should frankly be ashamed of themselves as storytellers... they need to get her out of there and never speak of that again.

SPOILS S03E04


So everything was a ploy to get Carrie into the terrorist pay roll....ok that was nice, I knew there was no way she would turn on the CIA, but didn't see coming that it was a plan, I thought she would spill the beans with Saul to earn her way back in (again), anyway that was good stuff.


OTOH...Dana's story line is worthless, or at least too boring for me, yeah she's a teen and teens do stupid shit but still.

Jessica Brody's story could be better if they took the ''we need to talk about Kevin'' route, showing the horror to live under such a dark shadow; so far I have no idea if the writers have something interesting on the horizon for the Brody clan but right now it all seems pointless.

He doesn't know what's going on with Dana but whatever it is, Mike's going to get to the bottom of it.

He can't carpool the Brody family around if Dana stole their economy mid-side mini-wagon.

They're turning the Brody family into every other character on Dexter besides Deb & Dexter.

Spoilers...


Oh christ I give up. That Dana goodbye scene was some of the most ridiculous shit ever committed to celluloid. The new bad guy is a bore and totally unearned. They spent two seasons building up Abu Nazir as the scariest brown guy ever and now we get this random feckless asshat as the new villain. And Carrie is pregnant? They're already jumping that lazy shark?

I'm going to start watching movies again.

Quote from: ©brad on November 03, 2013, 10:51:00 PM
Spoilers...


Oh christ I give up. That Dana goodbye scene was some of the most ridiculous shit ever committed to celluloid. The new bad guy is a bore and totally unearned. They spent two seasons building up Abu Nazir as the scariest brown guy ever and now we get this random feckless asshat as the new villain. And Carrie is pregnant? They're already jumping that lazy shark?

I'm going to start watching movies again.

Quote from: cine on October 14, 2013, 01:54:47 PM
so glad i stopped watching this show after season 1.

Uh, yeah. That episode was unforgivable.

(SPOILERS)

During Dana's entire goodbye sequence, my mouth was literally agape with horror, and I almost started throwing things at the screen. She is officially the most loathsome character I have seen in recent memory.

And that's not the intended effect. We are obviously supposed to respect her decision, as her mom does, which itself is more than a little unrealistic. Why would she just let her go? I'm sorry, no, don't let her go anywhere. I just wanted to run into that scene and slap everyone.

Seriously, is Dana aging backwards right now? Why is she so dumb? Why can't she be like her brother and just deal with things? Why must she create massive public drama out of every human emotion that she experiences? What is clearly meant to be "inner turmoil" and "her experience" simply translates as bratty self-righteousness. Absolutely insufferable.

Dana is a cancer on the show, which even metastasized into Carrie's story last week.

I actually do think the Saul/Carrie/Quinn operation is engaging and has a lot of promise. But this episode shot itself in the face... twice.

My reaction to the pregnancy test scene went something like this:

1. Abject horror
2. I'm just going to pretend this scene didn't happen.
3. So wait, she really has an entire stinky drawer full of urine-encrusted plastic sticks?

I think the shark has indeed been jumped.

I don't understand why they haven't written Brody's family out of the show yet. Dana's entire story line this season could have been summed up in an episode or less. I also think they're going to have a hard time coming up with new brown boogiemen after Nazir was built up so much. I like Saul, Quinn and even lip quivering Carrie but the melodramatic plotting of the show really drags it down. 

So the key to this show is to forget the details and not get caught up in sloppy writing and plot holes. Just enjoy the ride. It's finally fun and fast paced again. The last few episodes feel like there's been a lot happening and it's good!

I agree. The show is back on track and doing pretty much as well as I can ask.

Dana's appearance this week was a real drag, as one would expect. It was at least satisfying to learn that she's living with the consequences of her own stupidity. Several episodes ago I wanted her killed off, but now I'm content to let her suffer.

And of course she continues to be oblivious to reality when it's literally staring her in the dumb face. Carrie bringing her dad to see her is basically proof that the CIA believes he is innocent, but that went right over her head.

SPOILERS

So wait a second. If Brody takes out Iran's defense minister, won't Iran instantly realize that the CIA turned him? And that one very possible reason for this assassination is Javadi's ascent to power?

Won't Javadi be incredibly suspect, especially when he starts pushing for reconciliation? He is already suspect, having just had an adventure with a CIA agent.

This is a pretty big flaw in Saul's plan, is it not?

Um YEAH. This freaking show I swear. 

I still can't get over the Rocky montage and the "6 weeks later" titlecard that preceded it.

why do you guys keep watching this crap when you KNOW it will jump the shark AGAIN and AGAIN? are you really that hard up for things to watch? then kal says the only way to enjoy the show is to ignore all the things that make it a bad show.

why don't you just fling some feces on a wall and watch it drip down to the floor? sounds like if you just ignored that it's a piece of poo and on your own wall and that it stinks, it might actually make for some good viewing!

i haven't seen this but it was obvious from the beginning that it's one of those shows that goes nowhere. same thing happened to dexter, same thing happens with a million shows, and it will happen with walking dead too. they have no idea what they're doing and it's weird that you guys don't care. i honestly think of pod people when i think of the audience that watches these duds.

no offence. i'm just baffled. i wonder if it's the american culture to just consume anything that's served to you, even if it sucks. or maybe it's something else, because there's a mexican here too. maybe it's just the kind of people we all are. it's fascinating really. you're like abused spouses.

i speak from experience you see. there was nothing that hurt more in terms of leaving a tv show than when i completely stopped watching the simpsons after they became unforgivably bad in season 13. i noticed the signs two years earlier, but it was undeniable that they gave zero fucks about their audience at that point. and i love that show like nothing else. i haven't seen a single episode since then.

it's tough. but you just have to walk away. spend some time with things that are actually good. there's so much out there. just my advice.

This show is not essential viewing by any means but it's not bad enough to warrant no discussion at all. Yes it can be maddening and batshit crazy but then out of nowhere it can turn around and do something awesome you didn't expect. It's rarely boring and definitely not the worst way to spend 43 minutes on a Sunday evening. None of us are investing that much energy analyzing it. We know what we're getting. We pop in here, make a stupid comment and move on. I generally agree with you that life is too short to waste watching crap, which is why I avoid most TV. But come on, you're never in the mood to relax and watch something stupid?

Quote from: ©brad on November 27, 2013, 11:54:19 AM
But come on, you're never in the mood to relax and watch something stupid?

Absolutely. I just got the impression from the last couple of pages that people were genuinely upset and surprised that the show continued to display little respect for the viewer's intelligence. It doesn't seem like a reaction you would get for something that was really just for dumb enjoyment like the housewives of whatever.

I was under the impression that it was actually trying to be a good show. Certainly people I know call it the best thing on tv and I have no respect for their opinion thereafter. If it's really meant to be mindless entertainment then I apologise, as I misunderstood.

In that case, no one should show any surprise when it goes to shit yet again. I mean that's what you're all expecting isn't it?

Quote from: Pubrick on November 27, 2013, 11:09:58 AM
i speak from experience you see. there was nothing that hurt more in terms of leaving a tv show than when i completely stopped watching the simpsons after they became unforgivably bad in season 13. i noticed the signs two years earlier, but it was undeniable that they gave zero fucks about their audience at that point. and i love that show like nothing else. i haven't seen a single episode since then.

Just to clarify, do you mean you've stopped watching the show altogether (no reruns, DVD viewings, etc.) or you stopped at season 13 (which is when I stopped too)? Did 13 sully all that came before it? I sense this can't be...

Re: Pubrick

I don't see either Homeland or The Walking Dead as a serious show, so I don't experience heartbreak or actual outrage. They are often brilliant and always fun to watch. Sometimes especially when things go off-kilter. They are also both strangely interesting to talk about.

This applies to Homeland in particular. My head almost exploded, literally, during Dana's goodbye scene. I'm convinced my neurons were firing in such a way that an actual explosion might have occurred. That kind of Homeland episode is actually sort of hard to beat for impact.

It's a good return on a meager investment of time each week. I don't think any further justification is required.

I think your stronger argument is against people (like myself, unfortunately) who continued to watch Dexter. Those are hours of my life that I will never get back. I have no rational defense for that; I can only explain it as a case of Stockholm syndrome.

(Or maybe it was worth it, for this scene (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=lBRvhIV81hY) if nothing else.)

It definitely feels like the writers took a vacation for the first half of the season and now came back.

Last night was intense and pretty great.

SPOILERS and Boardwalk Empire spoilers!!!

I say that because I just watched the last few episodes of Boardwalk Empire this weekend and there was a great moment with a very similar situation as last night's Homeland.

Van Alden confessing his whole truth and plans to O'Banian, then killing him with no witnesses before he can tell anyone else. Same last night with Brody. I thought that was cool because as he was doing it I was remembering that scene and waiting for it to happen.

Quote from: Kal on December 09, 2013, 12:04:08 PM
It definitely feels like the writers took a vacation for the first half of the season and now came back.

Last night was intense and pretty great.

Yes! Great episode. Why Brody was allowed to be in that room alone with whatshisfuck I don't' know but it's the kind of ridiculous Homeland flaw you just have to expect and deal with. This show has always ended well. I'm excited for next week's finale.

The finale was disappointing. You could see Brody's death coming. There really wasn't anything left for him to do but die. I never thought Brody and Carrie were going to get out. The writers just needed to get Carrie and Brody together one last time.

I was surprised that they didn't show any of Brody's family after he died. It felt strange to spend the first half of the season with a lot of focus on them but forget them at the end. It makes me think we won't see them in the upcoming seasons.

It is a good sign that the writers realized they took the Brody storyline as far as the could and needed to restart.

I'm just glad they're moving past Brody and making it Carrie's story.

is anyone watching?


SPOILERS SEASON 4 UP TO EPISODE 6

It's a shame that sometimes this show enters 24 territory of ridiculousness like moles in key positions (see ambassador's husband), but, it's really entertaining and makes me nervous as hell.

The bad.

- How they got Saul, seriously someone like him going to that bathroom trap alone? and with all his experience? come on.
- Suddenly the ambassador's husband is a great tracker, and how the hell Carrie sends just ONE person to clean up a safe house, seriously, this isn't ridiculous, it's just plain stupid., so far the worst one.
- Carrie trying to off Haqqani while Saul being there doesn't look that bad considering she had the thought of letting drown her baby to get rid of that responsibility.


The Good.

- Quinn FTW.
- I love that Saul is caught and how they are going to get him out of that one, right now I don't think the show will kill him but who knows.
- Claire Danes as usual is great.
- Can't wait to see how they catch Dennis Boyd (ambassador's husband) and everything falls apart, or maybe nothing does and everything ends up in a negotiation where everyone lives and nobody is caught.

SPOILERS

I've been watching and enjoying it.

The show is strange, because it's essentially campy plotting underneath an attractive gloss. It feels serious and credible but is absolutely insane at the same time. This enrages some people, but I think it's fun.

I can possibly buy Saul falling into the bathroom trap. They did a pretty good job of establishing how bored he was in his new job. It kind of makes sense how childishly excited he got when he was suddenly being a spy again. His literal fumbling was a bit over the top, but I guess even great ex-spies have their embarrassing moments. (Was he ever a field guy? Probably not.) I was mostly confused by how quickly he went into the bathroom. Eh... the more I think about it, the more problematic that was. Maybe that's a tossup.

Saul is probably due for a redemption considering how dumb he was. I'd like to see him escape... or at least escape far enough to be rescued. Preferably in the process he helps actually capture/kill Haqqani.

The AV Club review argues that Saul would have wanted Carrie to take the shot. Thoughts? I dunno, I think Saul would have / should have yelled "take the shot!" when Haqqani was on the phone. It's a worthy sacrifice to make, and he wouldn't have to see his horrible wife again.

The Ayaan stuff was so good that I'm prepared to forgive a lot.

The absence of Dana Brody has really opened my heart.

I'm with you guys. The show is more fun if you don't think about it too much. Remember when Sal told Carrie "You are the smartest and dumbest fuckin person I know." Well that line sums up Homeland pretty well. I've never seen a show that can pivot from batshit craziness to well-plotted suspenseful verisimilitude so easily. Sometimes you'll watch two scenes back to back and wonder how the same writer(s) came up with something so smart followed by something so mind-numbingly dumb. But what can you do. Every show can't be Breaking Bad.

I wonder what the arc will be for the second act of this season. So far we're getting a lot about the unhidden costs of modern drone warfare and the toll it's taking (if any) on Carrie. It'd be too easy to assume the remaining episodes will be spent on Carrie successfully rescuing Saul and killing this new terrorist bad guy. Speaking of which, does he not look exactly like one of the stereotypical terrorists from Team America?

That was the most Homelandy Homeland episode I've ever seen. You could put this one in a bottle and give it to someone as a perfect representation of the show. A nail-biting teeter between absurdity and excellence.


MASSIVE SPOILERS


When you know who appeared at the end, my brain knew he was a hallucination, but my heart believed that Homeland would absolutely pull something like this. I could feel my very consciousness being twisted and contorted, and it lasted so long. I can only compare that experience to watching Dana leave home:

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on November 04, 2013, 02:22:18 AMDuring Dana's entire goodbye sequence, my mouth was literally agape with horror, and I almost started throwing things at the screen.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on November 30, 2013, 02:03:28 PMMy head almost exploded, literally, during Dana's goodbye scene. I'm convinced my neurons were firing in such a way that an actual explosion might have occurred. That kind of Homeland episode is actually sort of hard to beat for impact.

And in this case, I absolutely enjoyed being trolled. Completely on board.

I think it does strain credulity (I just said that in a Homeland review) that Carrie didn't realize she had been drugged. These were new symptoms. Certainly in at least the early stages, she should have recognized that.

Pretty sure the guy whose arms she ends up in is going to help her out. He must have figured out that he has a rogue agent. It was made clear to us that he didn't authorize Saul's capture and didn't know about it; I believe they even repeated that in a "previously on Homeland." The guy seemed genuine at the airport, too. It's probably time for an ISI protagonist.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on November 10, 2014, 12:21:11 AM

MASSIVE SPOILERS

Pretty sure the guy whose arms she ends up in is going to help her out. He must have figured out that he has a rogue agent. It was made clear to us that he didn't authorize Saul's capture and didn't know about it; I believe they even repeated that in a "previously on Homeland." The guy seemed genuine at the airport, too. It's probably time for an ISI protagonist.

I too get the feeling that he is going to help her, mainly because when she's calling him Brody he doesn't know who that is; still I hope Carrie being crazy doesn't go further than the next episode.

Dennis Boyd who not long ago was terrified to be a mole right now is really enjoying playing that part, can't wait to see how that turns out.

Loved the conversation between Haqanni and Saul at the dinner table.

the show's gone full espionage serial and i love it.  that last episode was pretty enthralling with big, pulpy feels to spare.  the carrie quinn relationship is coming along in such a way that i'm hoping will come to fruition in as mythic proportion as there is the potential for.  Big Ideas Entertainment... grand, generalizing, sweeping statements about human existence but as a person who struggles to find hope in anything, this season is gearing up to be particularly cathartic in its sprawl, and its deeply poignant sense of the modern survival instinct.

i've also developed a love of scotch and have had my daily dose while watching last night's episode and writing this now.  too much of anything is bad but too much good whiskey is barely enough, amiright?

happy to have something to look forward to next week.

That sequence with Saul was pretty breathtaking. They really had me believing he was going to die, which would've been a ludicrous move for the show to make. I'm enjoying this season quite a bit.

Now that was an episode.

what the fucking fuck.  i'm tempted to deem this homeland's ozymandias (a la breaking bad).  their finest hour yet, and one of the best episodes of tv i've seen period.  i think i'll watch it again right now.

SPOILERS S04E09


yeah, this felt like an episode 9 of Game of Thrones, but there's three episodes left!

one minor observation. when learning that Dennis Boyd is in bed with the other side, wouldn't be logical to retrace his steps? meaning, watching the security cameras to see who he has been talking, when he left the embassy, etc? if they did that they would see (if there are cameras there) when Tasneem hands him that napkin that we now know she asked about Carrie's secret entrance/exit.

SPOILERS


Yeah um wow. Although, in typical Homeland fashion, they follow up something brilliantly plotted with something ridiculously stupid (are we to believe the secret Embassy door would be secured with a padlock, with no alarm or guard?)

I might argue that no actor on TV right now is kicking as much ass as Claire Danes. Her take down of the traitor husband in the interrogation room was so great. It reminded me of her equally hair-raising season 2 arrest of Brody in the hotel room. 

The cartoonish terrorist villain still bothers me a lot.

SPOILERS

Actually I've grown to enjoy Homeland's absurd plot turns. They are deployed sparingly enough that it seems to work for me. And it's nothing new. Remember the crazy stuff that happened in Season 1?

This season has had a quality of unpredictability on par with Breaking Bad. I think it started with Aayan's sudden death and just kept going from there. I did not expect Saul to be recaptured, and I did not expect the hostage exchange to go down how it did, or the ensuing events. I sort of expected Dennis Boyd to be cracked under interrogation. At every turn they've made the more difficult plot choices. They've probably realized that it's not just writing yourself into a corner, it can be sustained as a way to generate unpredictable plot, especially "in a world" where things can plausibly be this twisty.

SPOILS

I enjoy everything and like you say this season has been unpredictable, still I like to think of all the clues that are there that sometimes they don't see (the characters I mean), like these that happened to Saul:

- Haqqani tells him 'welcome back to Islamabad'. HUGE RED FLAG

- then made a video in english where he threatens the US, obviously a video to use after the attacks.

he should have told Carrie the second he saw her both, specially that he was in Islamabad.


I hate waiting a week to see the next episode and just now found out that there's no new episode this weekend...what the fucking fuck!

SPOILS S04E10

well, it was a bloodbath, still the main players made it. poor Fara thou.

it was pretty stupid of Lockhart to give up the list like that, Martha the ambassador knew better...

we have to assume that the ambassador told Carrie and everyone else about her husband's contact with ISI right? still is one of those things that I wish they take just a few seconds to acknowledge it.

Carrie obviously won't die but I'm not so sure about Quinn, I hope he makes it.

My 4-word review:

MOST
DEPRESSING
SEASON
EVER!!!!![/i]

cronopio2 [15|Nov 09:17 AM]:   http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2015/oct/15/homeland-is-racist-artists-subversive-graffiti-tv-show
Jeremy Blackman [15|Nov 11:33 AM]:   I've read that. Not actually convinced Homeland is racist though.
Jeremy Blackman [15|Nov 11:34 AM]:   Have you seen this season and last? They've been especially not racist.
Drenk [15|Nov 11:38 AM]:   "Banksy wouldn't suck Homeland's dick" would be better and funnier than "Homeland is racist"
Drenk [15|Nov 11:38 AM]:   They had the opportunity to write whatever they wanted.
Jeremy Blackman [15|Nov 12:00 PM]:   I mean, I'm open to the idea that it's racist, but that was such a weak argument.
Drenk [15|Nov 12:00 PM]:   I almost don't remember the first third seasons of Homeland.
Drenk [15|Nov 12:01 PM]:   But I'm sure it's more clumsy than racist.
Jeremy Blackman [15|Nov 12:01 PM]:   "We think the show perpetuates dangerous stereotypes by diminishing an entire region into a farce through the gross misrepresentations that feed into a narrative of political propaganda."
Jeremy Blackman [15|Nov 12:01 PM]:   ^ WEAK argument. Have they even seen the show recently?
Drenk [15|Nov 12:02 PM]:   Probably not.
Jeremy Blackman [15|Nov 12:03 PM]:   Homeland is definitely the wrong target. There is so much worse culture out there about the Arab world.
Jeremy Blackman [15|Nov 12:07 PM]:   Last season was all about showing the consequences of drone warfare and empathizing with the victims, one of whom was a main protagonist.

Has anyone else been watching this season? Overall it was pretty good. About the best you can expect from latter-day Homeland.

SPOILERS

The finale was quietly but intensely weird. Still not sure if I loved it or hated, but I'll give it the benefit of the doubt for provoking a reaction.

Speaking of which. They completely destroyed Quinn's body throughout this season, didn't they? Just over and over again. He almost gets a chance to heal, then he is violently punished, barely survives, repeat. Is he supposed to be a Christ figure?

During's... marriage proposal, I guess?... was truly bizarre. But it was exactly that for Carrie, so job well done.

I think that's why I keep watching. The show has time for stuff like that. It has a real personality. And no Dana.

Miranda Otto has been really good this season and it was ramping up towards the end.

SPOILERS

The finale was a bit of a wet fart, it was almost comical how easily the terrorist plot was foiled. She just asked him to talk his cousin out of it and he was like "sure." During's proposal was also totally out of left field, wasn't she dating his subordinate? What was he waiting for? Lots of puzzling choices to wrap this story up.

Poor Quinn.

SPOILS

Well to be fair, Carrie (in desperation) asked Qasim to shoot his cousin. Qasim had the crazy idea of talking him out of it, and she was like okay whatever just do something, then followed him, planning to shoot. I could also buy that he was ready to turn; they hammered that so hard every week that we knew early on it was inevitable.

There were many other logic problems with the story this season, though. Like why did Qasim's cousin let him come at all or give him a role of any importance, after he knew about his doubts?

Also... Why was Allison allowed to go anywhere (including inside a public restroom) without at least 3 officers on her at all times? It's an extreme measure to give her any amount of freedom; they would surely take extreme precautions. They would never just send one doting guy to tag along. And she would have been guarded in the hospital.

What in the love of pixelated crap was that? I say this as someone who's really liked this season, which has been genuinely suspenseful and fun especially now that Brody and Dana as JB says are a distant memory. Last week's episode was one of the best they've ever done. And now... this?

Diggler you're right on, they built up this terrorist plot for the entire goddamn season only for it to fizzle out in the first 5 minutes?

Alison has been SUCH a great character and this is how they get rid of her? No final showdown with her and Sal?

Last season's finale was a snoozefest as well if memory serves. I guess such is to be expected. Homeland remains an entertaining and frustrating show often in equal measures.