The Official Twin Peaks Thread (TOTPT)

Started by NEON MERCURY, July 15, 2003, 03:29:03 PM

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Sleepless

He held on. The dolphin and all the rest of its pod turned and swam out to sea, and still he held on. This is it, he thought. Then he remembered that they were air-breathers too. It was going to be all right.

Drenk

Once again, I should watch it again in order to give examples, but this season didn't strike me as a movie hidden behind a label but as a work exploiting its medium—a TV show—in order to offer something new. The fact that 80% of TV shows are the same doesn't mean that a different kind of TV show isn't a TV show. To do that, you need to know where you stand. What your medium is. Whatever Lynch says.

berlin alexanderplatz is a TV miniseries. Out 1 is a collection of movies: weird thing indeed. The Return is not as weird as Out 1 to be lapeled as a movie, I think.

The fact that TV and cinema are both cinematic doesn't mean that one medium can be the "better" medium when it suits you. (Even if a Top is not that big a deal and, on itself, kind of silly.)

Ascension.

Sleepless

Of course TPTR is a TV show. I don't think anyone is suggesting that it isn't. But it is undeniably cinematic. As samsong said, "it was the best work of image and sound to be released this year, and by an insanely large margin."
He held on. The dolphin and all the rest of its pod turned and swam out to sea, and still he held on. This is it, he thought. Then he remembered that they were air-breathers too. It was going to be all right.

Jeremy Blackman

Cinematic in terms of quality and ambition? I honestly thought we were done being surprised that could be done on TV. Beyond just how good it is, TPTR is a season of television in every conceivable way. I genuinely don't understand how it's meaningful or useful at all to call this a film.
Living life big time

Jeremy Blackman

To elaborate... I think there are better ways to sing its praises than calling it something it's not, just to make a point about its quality and ambition.

Calling something a film is not an effective way to praise it, anyway. Justice League was a film. It was a cinematic film, too. And by that same standard, X Files: I Want To Believe was definitely not a film, for example.
Living life big time

jenkins

no one is saying it's meaningful or useful to call it a film. i didn't hear anyone say that. i don't think they're calling it a film to praise it. i think they're praising it because it's awards season, and awards are how you praise. they're saying "great job." and, what, only tv people can say "great job"? well that's silly.


Sleepless

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on December 07, 2017, 10:45:59 AM
Cinematic in terms of quality and ambition? I honestly thought we were done being surprised that could be done on TV. Beyond just how good it is, TPTR is a season of television in every conceivable way. I genuinely don't understand how it's meaningful or useful at all to call this a film.

Cinematic as in pure cinema. That's a squishy definition, and completely subjective, I grant you. I liked what Rian Johnson said about PTA: "The truth is I don't know how great music does what it does, and I don't know how Paul's movies do that voodoo that they do." Yes, there's plenty of other great stuff on TV (Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones) but I don't think of anything else that has transcended the medium quite like TPTR did. Regardless of whether you want to consider the medium TV or film. To clarify, again, I recognize that TPTR is TV and not a film. But I think what the S&S and Cahiers lists were trying to do was acknowledge it as one of the very best examples of cinematic art from over the past year. Regardless of what size screen it appeared on.

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on December 07, 2017, 11:06:13 AM
To elaborate... I think there are better ways to sing its praises than calling it something it's not, just to make a point about its quality and ambition.

Calling something a film is not an effective way to praise it, anyway. Justice League was a film. It was a cinematic film, too. And by that same standard, X Files: I Want To Believe was definitely not a film, for example.

I agree that calling something a film is not a form of praise. That makes no sense to me. I think you just want things to stay in their box and to be neatly categorized. I get why you're uncomfortable with all this. I don't take this as an issue of film versus TV, simply acknowledgment of what TPTR achieved.

Quote from: jenkins on December 07, 2017, 11:15:00 AM
no one is saying it's meaningful or useful to call it a film. i didn't hear anyone say that. i don't think they're calling it a film to praise it. i think they're praising it because it's awards season, and awards are how you praise. they're saying "great job." and, what, only tv people can say "great job"? well that's silly.

Exactly.
He held on. The dolphin and all the rest of its pod turned and swam out to sea, and still he held on. This is it, he thought. Then he remembered that they were air-breathers too. It was going to be all right.

Jeremy Blackman

Quote from: jenkins on December 07, 2017, 11:15:00 AMi don't think they're calling it a film to praise it.

That's kind of exactly what samsong said:

Quote from: samsong on December 07, 2017, 03:04:36 AMdoesn't listing a season of tv as a film inherently acknowledge its accomplishment as a tv series? . . . twin peaks: the return will be at the top of my best films of 2017 list, as it was the best work of image and sound to be released this year

He also said that The Leftovers wouldn't be eligible because he didn't like it.

Quote from: jenkins on December 07, 2017, 11:15:00 AMi think they're praising it because it's awards season, and awards are how you praise. they're saying "great job." and, what, only tv people can say "great job"?

Do people actually self-identify so strongly as "film people" that they can't bring themselves to make a list of the best TV? Not even a top 3 or 5? Is it like, I haven't seen enough television, so I'm going to put this on my movie list?

I guess that's fine, but what frustrates me is that words have meaning. A 2-hour movie is a different thing than an 18-hour season of television, and I think it's worth respecting the distinction.
Living life big time

jenkins

yes, i believe that Sight & Sound and Cahiers du cinéma self-identify as film people, so much so that they don't make a tv list. yes that's accurate. but the Twin Peaks distinction won't be denigrated by these accolades. to reference Dekalog again, everyone knows it was tv. all these years later, everyone still knows Dekalog was tv.

Jeremy Blackman

I bet even Sight & Sound could bring themselves to slum a little and make a short TV list, if they want to talk about a TV show.

I think the distinction protects film, if anything. The constraints of the medium help make it what it is — something you could reasonably watch in a theater in one sitting. The duration of the thing is actually important! You can simply do a lot more in a full season of television. It's strange to put a movie up against TPTR, which contains the content and power of multiple movies.

Another central and defining characteristic of a film is that it should hopefully work as a self-contained thing. Twin Peaks: The Return is violently the opposite. It does not work without Season 1, Season 2, and Fire Walk With Me.

Basically, I just still believe in the distinction.
Living life big time

jenkins

is each Star Wars movie a self-contained thing? is each Godfather movie a self-contained thing? what of the Lord of the Rings?

the distinction will prevail jb.

Jeremy Blackman

Quote from: jenkins on December 07, 2017, 12:30:35 PMis each Star Wars movie a self-contained thing? is each Godfather movie a self-contained thing? what of the Lord of the Rings?

Yes, all of these examples work much better as a self-contained thing than TPTR.

I chose my words carefully: "should hopefully work as a self-contained thing" rather than "IS a self-contained thing."
Living life big time

jenkins

is it just awkward when i tell you that Twin Peaks: The Return worked for me without me having ever watched Season 2? if that's awkward for you or awkward for me, it's still true.

Jeremy Blackman

Quote from: jenkins on December 07, 2017, 12:39:03 PM
is it just awkward when i tell you that Twin Peaks: The Return worked for me without me having ever watched Season 2? if that's awkward for you or awkward for me, it's still true.

I can objectively say you missed a whole lot, yes. Arguably TPTR draws more on Fire Walk With Me, so if you saw and remember that, that might have helped. If you haven't seen Season 2 or FWWM, you're really robbing yourself of a much, much fuller experience.
Living life big time

Sleepless

Also, if you haven't seen a good chunk of season 2, you're really gifting yourself a much, much fuller experience.
He held on. The dolphin and all the rest of its pod turned and swam out to sea, and still he held on. This is it, he thought. Then he remembered that they were air-breathers too. It was going to be all right.