Breaking Bad

[Jeremy Blackman]

I'm among those who think Walt only won cause his own soul has been compromised to point that only he can see it as a win.

I've never bought the argument that it was some kind of dark and twisted win. For the simple reason that so much of it was redemptive for Walt and set things right to such a great extent. (Seriously, go back and review that list.) I know what a dark and twisted win looks like, and this is definitely not it.

I just don't buy that Walt is in some kind of evil-deluded state that is making him interpret the end of his life as a big win. I don't see how one could take that away from watching the episode. He is intensely aware of the things he's lost; it's apparent in his visit to Skyler. He also understands that he did it primarily for himself, which he admits to Skyler. He is able to hold both of those ideas in his mind and conscience at the same time. He's presented as a fairly rational, sober, and morally aware person.

I'm thinking about the entire series and when have they ever set up that crime doesn't pay? Walt became a success. Gus was a success. Crazy 8 and tuco were successful. While we all came to see Hank as a great DEA agent, he never arrested and put anyone in jail. From Crazy 8 to Walt, They all have gotten away with it and were successful until someone killed them. I'm trying to see when they set up that crime doesn't pay.

What Breaking Bad did set up was that crime does pay but that innocence pays the price for it. We've seen multiple times that an innocent life is lost to sacrifice to continuation of an evil life.

What the finale violates in the Breaking Bad universe is the principle that "actions have consequences." I don't know how many times I've heard that phrase from Vince Gilligan.

Ozymandias and Granite State delivered those consequences. The finale largely took them back. That is the problem.

"Punishment" is probably the wrong word. It's about consequences, disaster, wreckage, and showing exactly what a horrible decision it was to break bad. The finale was their opportunity to seal the deal, but they decided to go in the opposite direction and resolve as many things as possible.

I think the finale should be viewed keeping in mind the entire series. It shouldn't stand alone.

But unfortunately it sticks out like a sore thumb, doesn't it, because it reversed the trajectory of the entire show.

And for JB asking for an ending that questions our support for Walt, think about Jane, 167 deaths on the plane, Gale, Andrea's brother, Andrea, motorbike kid, Walt's family, Brock, and so on. While the finale may not have made you confront your support of Walt, the entire series did enough to make you question it.

Yet he remained the protagonist, and they put him in full protagonist mode in the finale. They did everything they could to build our sympathies back up for the finale, even starting with parts of Ozymandias. The next step would have been to at least do some light rug-pulling, and deliver a conclusion to the series that was at least mildly confrontational. Instead, it was sort of a toothless crowd-pleaser that tried to develop our sympathies for Walt even further. Don't you see that as inconsistent, or at the very least a peculiar choice?

[polkablues]

The theme of "actions have consequences" reached its climax in "Ozymandias," when Hank dies. That was the point of no return, the absolute low point in Walt's arc, where everything he's done has finally had an irreversible effect on the one thing he was sure he would be able to protect, his family. THAT moment, and the subsequent repudiation by his wife and son, was Walt's ultimate cosmic punishment for breaking bad.

If it had ended right there, you would have gotten that pure unsullied thematic conclusion that you were hoping for, but the story would have been incomplete. Because as the last two episodes showed, Vince Gilligan is not the angry Old Testament god the finale-bashers seem to think he should be, casting firm and final judgment on his character. The story was not simply about a man who does the wrong thing and ultimately gets punished for it. It goes beyond that; it's also a story about the possibility for redemption. It asks the question: can someone go so far wrong and still come back and make it right again? And the answer it ends up with is... kind of.

That's beautiful and complex to me. That's not fan-service, vacillation, or a cop-out. That's fucking nuance. It's storytelling at the highest level.

I don't expect to change any minds at this point. If someone's decided the ending doesn't work for them, it doesn't work for them. But I'm tired of being told that the only reason the ending worked for me is because I didn't understand it, or I was never a close enough watcher of the show. The ending worked because it works.

[Jeremy Blackman]

Redemption is emphatically not the ending I wanted. It's that simple. I feel like granting that partial redemption to Walter White, turning this suddenly into a redemption story, violates the spirit of the show. What makes it all the more frustrating is that it was so concentrated in the final episode.

Even if I wanted redemption for Walt, I can't imagine being satisfied with the sort of contrived checklist-style way it was delivered.

Considering Walt's partial redemption to be beautiful nuance is I guess a valid interpretation, but it certainly didn't have that effect for me. And it seems abundantly clear (from the episode itself and from Vince's many words about it) that this ending was written not for the sake of nuance or complexity, but to be crowd-pleasing and humane, to tie up loose ends, and to provide general resolution.

I fully admit to having wanted something entirely different from the end of the show. I was in fact broadcasting that bias weeks in advance. This ending just doesn't work for me. And yes... I think at this point I've run out of new ways to rephrase it.

[polkablues]

This is why those damn podcasts are so toxic. There is always going to be a disconnect between the intent of a creator and the result of the creation. It would be both impossible and foolish to try and mandate an ultimate theme upon the story in the middle of its telling, especially in a long-form medium like a television series. When a writer tells you what their story is about before the story is complete, that can only be taken as a best guess, an objective. But the writer talking about the story is not the story itself, and it's a mistake to see discongruity between the two and take that to mean the talking about the story was right and the story is wrong.

[modage]

To me, the partial redemption is so out of touch with what had come before it would be like after watching Daniel Plainview be a monster for 2+ hours, at the end of the film he apologizes to his son for being selfish and buys Eli's land to send him on his way.

[Lottery]

Patiently waiting for TWBB alternate ending.

I've lost track of the discussion.
Well how much do you folks think intentions play into this? Like Walter's purpose?
Hmm, Walt accepts and admits to what he's done in the past, he tries to tie up loose ends but has no intention of truly (morally) redeeming himself. This is Walter White trying to neaten things up before he inevitably goes (which was the entire basis of those early seasons). He's grim and composed in Felina, completely understanding of the situation/the past. The other characters don't see that he's trying to redeem himself, nor could they accept him anyway.

[Pubrick]

I've lost track of the discussion.

let me summarise it for you:

[Jeremy Blackman]

This is why those damn podcasts are so toxic. There is always going to be a disconnect between the intent of a creator and the result of the creation. It would be both impossible and foolish to try and mandate an ultimate theme upon the story in the middle of its telling, especially in a long-form medium like a television series. When a writer tells you what their story is about before the story is complete, that can only be taken as a best guess, an objective. But the writer talking about the story is not the story itself, and it's a mistake to see discongruity between the two and take that to mean the talking about the story was right and the story is wrong.

I understand your point, but a darker ending seems inherently superior to me and more consistent with the spirit of the show, regardless of what the writers have said.

That's the only reason I ever got excited about the expectations they were setting; they seemed to be headed for a bold and satisfying conclusion that would have been so perfect for Breaking Bad.

The real incongruity is entirely within the show. The expectation setting augmented that.

[polkablues]

To me, the partial redemption is so out of touch with what had come before it would be like after watching Daniel Plainview be a monster for 2+ hours, at the end of the film he apologizes to his son for being selfish and buys Eli's land to send him on his way.

Except Walter White wasn't a monster for the entire series, he was a good man who made a bad decision and subsequently evolved into a monster as a result.

[©brad]

I still don't see anything that happens in the finale as redemptive, as Walt is so past that point. Getting his family the money might be a redemptive act in his own twisted world view, but the family made it clear they don't want it and it's certainly not going to bring Hank back or rid them of this horrible legacy they'll live with their entire lives.

[RegularKarate]

Yeah, I don't see the end as that Redemptive. I think Walt accepts how terrible he's become, but he has to finish his mission. Sure, he decides to save Jesse at the last minute, but that's because he's not pure evil. He's still a horrible man.

[Jeremy Blackman]

Partial redemption. That's the key phrase... which I was careful to use twice in my earlier post, and which modage used too. That's also what I gathered from Polka's post... so I think we're on the same page. (The finale does in fact have some nuance.) Of course Walt is far from any kind of full redemption, we all agree on that, but he is allowed many minor redemptions in the finale that of course add up to partial redemption.

I guess I'll repost my list of victories from several pages ago and highlight the redemptive bits.

Full disclosure, I said at the time and still believe that it was more victorious than redemptive, but there's no denying the partial redemption.

And considering what a monster Walt has been, they really had to try hard to accomplish it. Sometimes in a fairly hamfisted way. Perhaps the one that annoyed me the most was the writers simply erasing the beautiful moral complexity of the Ozymandias phone call. The tension and agony in that scene when Walt had to say those things to Skyler was amazing, and he was literally allowed to take that back in this episode.



1. Walt finds the keys as if through divine intervention. I know it's sort of a joke, but it's an indication of things to come.

2. Laundering the money through Gretchen and Elliot was brilliant. How many car washes would they have needed to accomplish that? Quite a comeback considering the impossible money situation in Granite State. A significant victory... and they essentially devote the first 18 minutes of the episode to it.

3. Walt completely fools Lydia and Todd. Poisons Lydia AND successfully schedules the confrontation with the Nazis.

4. Walt successfully builds the M60 robot without complications.

5. Walt gets to say goodbye to Skyler in a humane way and apologize for the harshness of the phone call. (Bonus redemption points.)

6. Walt officially achieves self-actualization.

7. Walt gets to say goodbye to Holly and share an emotional moment with Skyler, who seems compassionate toward him, as if to cue the audience. (Bonus redemption points.)

8. Walt pulls off one last epic caper, successfully killing the Nazis with the M60, achieving vengeance.

9. Walt gets that phone call with Lydia and gets to break the news to her, which he relishes.

10. Walt has now successfully disposed of the Nazis and Lydia, ensuring his family's safety. (Bonus redemption points.)

11. Walt has the opportunity to free Jesse and takes it. They even share that final nod of understanding, which is almost meant to reverse the nod Walter gave when he consented to Jesse's torture and imprisonment. Jesse in this moment is even more expressively sympathetic than I originally remembered. Seriously, check it out again. He's almost giving Walt this look like "Yeah, I get it. At least you made it right." (Massive bonus redemption points.)

12. Walt got to die in his sacred place, nearly euphoric with nostalgia. Taking credit for the ongoing blue meth production, preserving his legacy. He got to go out as a legend.

[RegularKarate]

I know I'm not going to convince you and there is so much discussion since the episode aired that it has blended in my brain so I'm sure I'm just digging stuff up that's already been talked to death, but...

2. Again, I don't think this is redemption. This is part of Walt's mission. He just wants to make sure he gives his son the money so he THREATENS THE LIVES of his friends to force them to essentially break the law for him. He's dragging them down with him. Doesn't count as redemption to me... just another asshole move on his way to his selfish goal.

5. Is a deathbed confession really redemption? He's admitting that he realizes how terrible he is and fully embracing it. I'll give Walt a deathbed confession to his wife... it's still selfish.

7. Just goes with 5. When 5 happens, you have to allow this one... otherwise everyone would call bullshit. It also helps make it extra sad.

10. This is what NEEDS to happen! Otherwise, there's no ending. This isn't the Sopranos... this is pulp-drama, we need an actual ending. You want the Nazis to live and then kill his family? That's dark for dark's sake and (to me) cheap.

11. This is the closest to redemption and I think it just falls under the whole "too chicken to put down your dog" thing. Walt has always made poor emotional choices and that's what was going on when he originally asked the Nazis to kill Jesse. He's had some time to sit on it now and is making a different decision.


I'll agree that some of this can be seen as mildly redemptive, but I guess I don't care if there's a hint of it to get to what needs to happen for the ending.

[©brad]

5. Walt gets to say goodbye to Skyler in a humane way and apologize for the harshness of the phone call. (Bonus redemption points.)

Does he explicitly apologize for the phone call? I don't remember that. In fact he does the exact opposite. He admits he "liked it." And she never forgives him. A redemptive moment here would be him giving one of his bullshit "I'm sorry but everything I did was for you guys" speeches, and Skylar accepting that. The exact opposite happens.

[Jeremy Blackman]

Does he explicitly apologize for the phone call?

"It's over... and I needed a proper goodbye. Not our last phone call."

I definitely read that as an apology for the phone call. Supported by his body language. He looks pathetic, mopey, apologetic. At the very least deeply regretful that he had to sound so harsh in that phone call.

So yeah, that was probably one of the top 3 cringe moments of the episode for me, because of how much I loved the original Ozymandias scene.

2. Again, I don't think this is redemption. This is part of Walt's mission. He just wants to make sure he gives his son the money so he THREATENS THE LIVES of his friends to force them to essentially break the law for him. He's dragging them down with him. Doesn't count as redemption to me... just another asshole move on his way to his selfish goal.

I didn't count it as redemption originally (just a victory), because of the very points you bring up. But as an afterthought, you have to admit it is mildly redemptive that he will be able to get more money to his family than he ever could have imagined. And that he's going to all this trouble to do it.

His motives and methods are deeply suspect of course, but the result is impressive. That is a massive amount of money laundered in one fell swoop. He's finally providing for his family, and since he's made it so they'll be in the dark, they won't feel guilty about it.

5. Is a deathbed confession really redemption? He's admitting that he realizes how terrible he is and fully embracing it. I'll give Walt a deathbed confession to his wife... it's still selfish.

You're actually responding to my #6, Walt's self-actualization. I counted that as a victory, not redemption. But he still has sadness in his eyes when he says it, so I don't really read it as cold-blooded. He's not confronting her and saying "deal with it." He's obviously sad. And being truthful with her for once. Anyway, I would still not count that part as redemption.

Number 5 is absolutely redemptive. He wanted to say goodbye to his wife in a more humane and gentle way. He almost says that.

Skyler then basically asks him to protect her from the Nazis, and he's all like, oh don't worry I got this. "They're not coming back. Not after tonight." This leads into #10.

7. Just goes with 5. When 5 happens, you have to allow this one... otherwise everyone would call bullshit. It also helps make it extra sad.

I don't understand why Skyler needed to be so compassionate, or why the writers needed to grant him that goodbye with Holly (she didn't have to be there), unless we the audience are to understand how much Walt has changed since he kidnapped Holly two episodes ago. I understand why it's nice for that to happen, but I did not want the finale of Breaking Bad to have all of these nice things, and so much mending. Again, personal taste.

10. This is what NEEDS to happen! Otherwise, there's no ending.

I'm just saying that ensuring his family's safety is redemptive. Do you disagree?

I'm not arguing that every little redemptive plot point should have been stripped out. Killing Nazis and protecting his family is fine, saving Jesse is fine, but it just keeps going, and altogether they do add up to partial redemption.