Breaking Bad

[Jeremy Blackman]

He's a man who lost his family and gained his self-respect. Or he's a man who sacrificed the love of his family for the love of himself. But the show didn't view that as any kind of tragedy, they let it play as a victory.

Yeah. It's disappointing. How many times has Vince said in the podcast that they're trying to show what a horrible decision it was to "break bad"? So many times. But they let it pay off. They could have made such an epic statement with the end of this show, but they opted to wrap it up as a standard antihero story. I still can't believe it.

I'm going to try my hardest to revisit the last 3 episodes and accept this ending on its own terms. I'm trying... I really am.

So how about some favorite episodes lists?

[modage]

Thanks for saying that. I read two pieces that helped articulate my feelings pretty well (after feeling utterly alone in my dissatisfaction for most of the day):

http://www.npr.org/blogs/monkeysee/2013/09/30/227740741/breaking-bad-lands-its-finale-a-little-too-cleanly?ft=1&f=93568166

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/tv/showtracker/la-et-st-breaking-bad-recap-20130929,0,4780572.story

I too am gonna try to accept it on its own terms but I think it's going to take some time. I am truly going to miss this show. Thank God for 2 more mini-years of MAD MEN.

[Jeremy Blackman]

Linda Holmes is the best. She said it perfectly:

"For Gilligan, those things were self-evidently connected: the satisfaction of the ending and the degree to which the terms of that ending are set by Walt."

"I could not escape the feeling that by earning anyone's sympathy, Walt was getting away with one last self-aggrandizing con."

And I think she helped illuminate why it's so hard for me to buy Walt's redemption or even half-redemption. At his core, he doesn't regret breaking bad. He acknowledges "mistakes" (as he says in Granite State) along the way, but he does not consider breaking bad itself to have been a mistake. Especially not in the end. He is practically in a state of euphoria as he dies in the meth lab.

I'm a fairly compassionate person, but I'm sorry, he doesn't earn redemption going out like that.

[Ghostboy]

Also incidentally: how many people other than me had never heard of the term 'breaking bad' before this show existed, and still find it odd to see it used in the active tense in sentences?

[©brad]

I don't see it as a redemptive ending, regardless of Gilligan's latest sound bites.

What exactly do you guys define as the victory moment? Walt getting money to his family via Gretchen? I don't think all the money in the world is going to make skylar and jr happy at this point. They are forever doomed to a life of severe depression, alcoholism, and god knows what else. A few victories in this finale don't redeem all of Walts sins. Yeah okay he got the money to his family, but look at what breaking bad to get that money cost him?

[polkablues]

Yeah, I feel like the goalposts have moved significantly on what constitutes a victory for this character. If, at the beginning of the series, you were told that Walt would end up despised and disowned by his family, responsible for his brother-in-law's murder, remembered as a monster by everyone he ever cared about, but at least he figured out a way to leave money for his kids and got to take credit for his drug empire, would you honestly have considered that a victorious ending?

In his last moments, Walt feels a sense of completion, of validation for what he accomplished, but that's only a subjective victory, and even then only in the narrowest possible terms.

[Brando]

Thanks for saying that. I read two pieces that helped articulate my feelings pretty well (after feeling utterly alone in my dissatisfaction for most of the day):

That's funny cause I've felt alone in my satisfaction.

I have a question for those who are dissatisfied. What do think they could have done to punish Walt? I can see only one way to punish him and that would be to do even more harm to his family. Walt has had death looming over him for 2 years so dying isn't a punishment. Would you feel differently with the ending if Skyler, Flynn and Holly were in worse shape? If Walt had to visit his family living in a really bad neighborhood surrounded by people smoking blue meth, would that change your opinion if the rest of the episode remained the same?

[Lottery]

And I think she helped illuminate why it's so hard for me to buy Walt's redemption or even half-redemption. At his core, he doesn't regret breaking bad. He acknowledges "mistakes" (as he says in Granite State) along the way, but he does not consider breaking bad itself to have been a mistake. Especially not in the end. He is practically in a state of euphoria as he dies in the meth lab.

I'm a fairly compassionate person, but I'm sorry, he doesn't earn redemption going out like that.

I guess that's how it should be considered, not as a redemption but an acknowledgement. He made it clear that it made him feel alive, he enjoyed it (some aspects of it least) but at the end it's hollow and it's caused too much trouble. So yeah, acknowledgement and not heroic self-sacrifice.

[©brad]

In his last moments, Walt feels a sense of completion, of validation for what he accomplished, but that's only a subjective victory, and even then only in the narrowest possible terms.

Yes this. Walt's bullshit rationalizations and views of what he thinks he has to do so "it's not all for nothing" are his own and not necessarily synonymous with what the writers feel or the overall message of the show.

[Fernando]

I liked the finale, really thought Jesse wouldn't make it but as the episode progressed it was clear he was going to, and I'm glad, i was really happy to see him choking Todd, but for br ba it was predictable, I read many predictions and many nailed them:

ricin for Lydia
Walt killing Nazis
Walt freeing Jesse
Jesse having his revenge with Todd

the must surprising scene was what Walt did at the grey matter's couple house, also it was nice to see for the last time Badger and skinny Pete.

That's a pretty Pyrrhic victory by any measure.

exactly, that's a perfect way to describe Walt's victory.

just for knowledge sake here's the definition:

Etymology

The phrase Pyrrhic victory is named after Greek King Pyrrhus of Epirus, whose army suffered irreplaceable casualties in defeating the Romans at Heraclea in 280 BC and Asculum in 279 BC during the Pyrrhic War. After the latter battle, Plutarch relates in a report by Dionysius:

The armies separated; and, it is said, Pyrrhus replied to one that gave him joy of his victory that one more such victory would utterly undo him. For he had lost a great part of the forces he brought with him, and almost all his particular friends and principal commanders; there were no others there to make recruits, and he found the confederates in Italy backward. On the other hand, as from a fountain continually flowing out of the city, the Roman camp was quickly and plentifully filled up with fresh men, not at all abating in courage for the loss they sustained, but even from their very anger gaining new force and resolution to go on with the war.
—Plutarch, [1]
an


I'm going to miss terribly this show, in the end it was better amc split S5 in two, maybe the same will happen to mad men although I don't know if they are going to write seven this year and the rest in 2014, btw they should do eight per year too, seven is too few.


edit:

Finally I can watch the promos, the one for the last episode didn't have any new footage actually, the song that plays is awesome, I think that could had been better than baby blue....maybe

[Jeremy Blackman]

We've already addressed all of those points. I also never claimed it was complete redemption or complete victory. I'll stick to this, from several pages ago:

Before the finale he went through a lot of punishment, and he lost a lot, but he gained so much of that back in one fell swoop. I'd never argue that he won everything he ever wanted... of course not. The issue is that they reversed his punishments as much as was physically possible. In Granite State he had literally nothing, and the list of his victories in the finale is kind of shocking.

Redemption and victory are separate issues, and Walt certainly got a lot more victory than redemption, but this finale definitely mixed them together. Those moments of redemption are obviously supposed to read as real, but they seem unearned.

What exactly do you guys define as the victory moment?

I've sort of been waiting for someone to ask. Let's go through them chronologically:


1. Walt finds the keys as if through divine intervention. I know it's sort of a joke, but it's an indication of things to come.

2. Laundering the money through Gretchen and Elliot was brilliant. How many car washes would they have needed to accomplish that? Quite a comeback considering the impossible money situation in Granite State. A significant victory... and they essentially devote the first 18 minutes of the episode to it.

3. Walt completely fools Lydia and Todd. Poisons Lydia AND successfully schedules the confrontation with the Nazis.

4. Walt successfully builds the M60 robot without complications.

5. Walt gets to say goodbye to Skyler in a humane way and apologize for the harshness of the phone call. (Bonus redemption points.)

6. Walt officially achieves self-actualization.

7. Walt gets to say goodbye to Holly and share an emotional moment with Skyler, who seems compassionate toward him, as if to cue the audience. (Bonus redemption points.)

8. Walt pulls off one last epic caper, successfully killing the Nazis with the M60, achieving vengeance.

9. Walt gets that phone call with Lydia and gets to break the news to her, which he relishes.

10. Walt has now successfully disposed of the Nazis and Lydia, ensuring his family's safety. (Bonus redemption points.)

11. Walt has the opportunity to free Jesse and takes it. They even share that final nod of understanding, which is almost meant to reverse the nod Walter gave when he consented to Jesse's torture and imprisonment. Jesse in this moment is even more expressively sympathetic than I originally remembered. Seriously, check it out again. He's almost giving Walt this look like "Yeah, I get it. At least you made it right." (Massive bonus redemption points.)

12. Walt got to die in his sacred place, nearly euphoric with nostalgia. Taking credit for the ongoing blue meth production, preserving his legacy. He got to go out as a legend.

I have a question for those who are dissatisfied. What do think they could have done to punish Walt?

Maybe knock a few items off the above list. That's the thing... he was fully punished in Granite State, and they took much of it back.

I would have liked the show to end with an interesting message. Making a bold statement. It was a surprising time for Breaking Bad to lose its edge, that's all.

[Fernando]

just to clarify, I think it was a Pyrrhic victory if we see it from beginning to end.

but in this episode and the way the story was supposed to go you are right, Walt won everything he set out to do, all his plans worked out like a charm.

[Jeremy Blackman]

Yeah. And I do understand Polka's point about viewing Walt's relative victories from beginning to end. But the fact is, what we just experienced is E15 to E16. I don't think we can be blamed for feeling slightly cheated when those hard-won punishments (which we so badly wanted) were taken back as much as possible, in the name of "the audience feeling satisfied." (Yeah, some of the things Vince is saying in the podcast are very disappointing.)

I don't begrudge anyone's satisfaction, though. It's a matter of personal preference. How much did you want to see Walt punished? Did you want him to end up the protagonist? Did you want Breaking Bad to make a bold statement with the finale, or did you want sweeping resolution?

[polkablues]

He set out to help those he had harmed (as much as was still possible), and the universe gave him his mojo back long enough to do it. That seems utterly consistent with the moral philosophy of the show as I understand it.

[Tictacbk]

I don't begrudge anyone's satisfaction, though. It's a matter of personal preference. How much did you want to see Walt punished? Did you want him to end up the protagonist? Did you want Breaking Bad to make a bold statement with the finale, or did you want sweeping resolution?

Perhaps this all comes down to my favorite subject, The Podcast.  If week after week Vince Gilligan wasn't talking about "Mr. Chips to scarface" and and "Protagonist to Antagonist" and Breaking Bad's Moral Universe, perhaps expectations wouldn't have been so high for a bold statement and a brutal punishment for Walt's actions.

Then again, I don't listen to the podcast so I can't really say.  But as I've previously stated, I really wish Vince would let the show speak for itself more, especially the finale.

Overall I found the finale satisfying.  Walt's scene with Skyler was great, Walt's scene with Jesse was great, Walt's scene with the meth lab was great.  The rest I can't really say I cared all that much about (compared to plot points in other seasons), but it was fine.  I think they really kind of screwed themselves when they wrote that cold opening with the M60.