Can watching bad movies make you a worse filmmaker?

Started by SoNowThen, February 13, 2004, 11:17:17 AM

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modage

#45
February 15, 2004, 11:54:52 AM
Quote from: soixanteHorror films have a low batting average, as far as quality goes.
i dont think so.  if i go into the romantic comedy section, or the drama section, or the foriegn section ill bet ill have about the same luck coming up with something worthwhile in any section as i do in horror.  

Quote from: soixanteWhy is it when I go to the video store, I don't even bother looking in the horror/sci-fi section?
because you're a snob?  or because you're too close-minded?

Quote from: soixanteWhy is that my favorite directors, like Altman, Scorsese, and Anderson never go anywhere near the horror genre?
what the hell do i know why?  why is it that directors like Alfred Hitchcock, Francis Ford Coppola, Ridley Scott, Stanley Kubrick, William Friedkin, Brian DePalma, David Cronenberg, etc. etc. etc. have?

Quote from: soixanteI dislike the genre for the most part, because the characters in horror films are usually cardboard cutouts
well, i might agree with you if you're talking about a lot of slasher movies, like a Friday the 13th film, but for the most part i think thats a REALLY naive statement.  sometimes they're not 3 dimensional, but a lot of times they are.  horror movies are capable of having complex interesting characters as well.  (plus, if godard makes a movie with 2D characters its genius, but if Sean Cunningham does its crap.)  why cant you see outside the box?  you cant judge a genre by the WORST in that genre and think you're being fair.

Quote from: MacGuffin
Quote from: soixanteHorror films are usually just constructed to provide cheap jolts.  Nothing wrong with that, but let's not mistake that for art.

It is an art form to put an audience in suspense or to shock or scare them. Those emotions are just as important as moving an audience to laugh or cry with the story the filmmaker tells.
exactly.

Quote from: Pthe reason for any anti-horror argument: marketing/brainwashing.
i agree.  i think its really naive of people to dismiss the whole genre, and its a really easy group mentality to jump onto because there so many notable stinkers can come to mind, but thats unfortunate.
Christopher Nolan's directive was clear to everyone in the cast and crew: Use CGI only as a last resort.

NEON MERCURY

#46
February 15, 2004, 12:11:13 PM
23  Words and 1 letter:..:    cronenbergh's dead ringers and eXistenZ are reasons why the sci fi/horror genre is underrated.and everything that mod-age, P, and Mac said is correct.....

modage

#47
February 15, 2004, 12:14:27 PM
Quote from: Chest RockwellAnd isn't PDL considered a romantic comedy?
no, DUH!  its science fiction, (those arent any good either!)

http://www.xixax.com/viewtopic.php?t=2116 (6 posts down)
Christopher Nolan's directive was clear to everyone in the cast and crew: Use CGI only as a last resort.

soixante

#48
February 15, 2004, 12:57:45 PM
I think it comes down to personal preference.  I haven't been brainwashed into not liking horror films -- I have seen plenty of horror films, and I simply don't care for them.

I don't consider Cape Fear a horror film, it is more of a thriller -- and by the way, it's Scorsese's weakest film.  I also think Silence of the Lambs is Demme's weakest film.

There are some horror films I like -- Exorcist, Rosemary's Baby, Carrie, Night of the Living Dead, Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

If I bypass the horror section in the video store, it is not out of close-mindedness -- it is because I have seen so many bad horror films that I don't care to suffer needlessly anymore.  And if it is true there are some bad films in the drama section, there are a lot more great dramas than great horror films.  Please, don't put Exorcist and Blair Witch and Sixth Sense alongside Citizen Kane and Streetcar Named Desire and Godfather and One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.
Music is your best entertainment value.

NEON MERCURY

#49
February 15, 2004, 01:02:49 PM
.you could argue w/ exorcist in the same leagues but not 6 sense or blair witch

modage

#50
February 15, 2004, 01:27:44 PM
Quote from: soixanteAnd if it is true there are some bad films in the drama section, there are a lot more great dramas than great horror films.  Please, don't put Exorcist alongside Citizen Kane and Streetcar Named Desire and Godfather and One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.
no, there arent.  thats the same sort of narrow-mindedness that would say that the only important movies are ones with apparent 'important' themes.  (have you seen Sullivans Travels?)  are things so black and white that a comedy cant be an important movie because its only 'trying to make people laugh'?  why isnt the exorcist as good/important as cuckoos nest?  i think there are people who would argue that it is, and your dismissive attitude seems very close-minded to me.  i tried to bring this question up in another thread, but what makes a film great?  and why cant a horror film fit that definition?
Christopher Nolan's directive was clear to everyone in the cast and crew: Use CGI only as a last resort.

MacGuffin

#51
February 15, 2004, 01:53:34 PM
Quote from: soixanteI don't consider Cape Fear a horror film, it is more of a thriller

Two sides of the same coin.

Quote from: soixanteand by the way, it's Scorsese's weakest film.  I also think Silence of the Lambs is Demme's weakest film.

I'd say "New York, New York" and "Truth About Charlie."

Quote from: soixantePlease, don't put Exorcist and Blair Witch and Sixth Sense alongside Citizen Kane and Streetcar Named Desire and Godfather and One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.

I'd definitely put "Exorcist" alongside those dramas you listed, along with "Jaws," "Alien" and "Psycho".
"Don't think about making art, just get it done. Let everyone else decide if it's good or bad, whether they love it or hate it. While they are deciding, make even more art." - Andy Warhol


Skeleton FilmWorks

soixante

#52
February 15, 2004, 04:00:49 PM
OK, Psycho is one of the greatest films ever made, and Rosemary's Baby is not too far behind.  Before I completely condemn an entire genre, I will acknowledge a few great horror/thrillers.

However, I don't think it's snobbish to say that drama films have a higher batting average for excellence than any other genre.  If you look at all of the films that have been nominated for Best Picture in the past ten years, there have been hardly any horror films.  Same with the Palme d'Or, same with most critics top ten lists.  Why is that?  Is the Academy, and the jury at Cannes, and the critical establishment, completely narrow-minded in their contempt for horror?
Music is your best entertainment value.

SoNowThen

#53
February 15, 2004, 07:42:41 PM
Quote from: Pkubrick's best movie, and therefore the best movie of all time, is horror.

end of argument.


Clockwork Orange isn't a horror movie.



Oh, and Soixante is right again, Cape Fear is by FAR FAR FAR Marty's worst movie.


But, uh, why all the horror hate? You can't say it's any worse than romantic comedy, sports, coming-of-age, or really any of the other stock-in-trade "genre" films...

Now if this is an anti-genre thing, then that's a whole 'nother argument.
Those who say that the totalitarian state of the Soviet Union was not "real" Marxism also cannot admit that one simple feature of Marxism makes totalitarianism necessary:  the rejection of civil society. Since civil society is the sphere of private activity, its abolition and replacement by political society means that nothing private remains. That is already the essence of totalitarianism; and the moralistic practice of the trendy Left, which regards everything as political and sometimes reveals its hostility to free speech, does nothing to contradict this implication.

When those who hated capital and consumption (and Jews) in the 20th century murdered some hundred million people, and the poster children for the struggle against international capitalism and America are now fanatical Islamic terrorists, this puts recent enthusiasts in an awkward position. Most of them are too dense and shameless to appreciate it, and far too many are taken in by the moralistic and paternalistic rhetoric of the Left.

Pubrick

#54
February 15, 2004, 07:50:14 PM
Quote from: SoNowThenClockwork Orange isn't a horror movie.
barry lyndon is.
under the paving stones.

SoNowThen

#55
February 15, 2004, 07:55:10 PM
AH!! Fuck, you got me... I was gonna put Clockwork/Barry Lyndon... and at the last second I changed my mind.


Damn it...
Those who say that the totalitarian state of the Soviet Union was not "real" Marxism also cannot admit that one simple feature of Marxism makes totalitarianism necessary:  the rejection of civil society. Since civil society is the sphere of private activity, its abolition and replacement by political society means that nothing private remains. That is already the essence of totalitarianism; and the moralistic practice of the trendy Left, which regards everything as political and sometimes reveals its hostility to free speech, does nothing to contradict this implication.

When those who hated capital and consumption (and Jews) in the 20th century murdered some hundred million people, and the poster children for the struggle against international capitalism and America are now fanatical Islamic terrorists, this puts recent enthusiasts in an awkward position. Most of them are too dense and shameless to appreciate it, and far too many are taken in by the moralistic and paternalistic rhetoric of the Left.

godardian

#56
February 15, 2004, 08:27:41 PM
Quote from: SoNowThen
Quote from: Pkubrick's best movie, and therefore the best movie of all time, is horror.

end of argument.



Oh, and Soixante is right again, Cape Fear is by FAR FAR FAR Marty's worst movie.
.

That's always been the conventional wisdom, but I disagree with it. I've always like Scorsese's Cape Fear. I'd erase Bringing Out the Dead from his ouevre before I'd erase Cape Fear, despite my love of John Goodman, because that seems to me to be his most blah film in many ways.

Oh, also, I think watching bad movies can improve your work as a filmmaker as long as they help you hone what you feel is "right" in a film and what doesn't work. And I don't have too many genre hangups, though there are some that I feel draw a disproportionate number of bad scripts/actors/directors, which you can't really judge a "kind" of movie by.
""Money doesn't come into it. It never has. I do what I do because it's all that I am." - Morrissey

"Lacan stressed more and more in his work the power and organizing principle of the symbolic, understood as the networks, social, cultural, and linguistic, into which a child is born. These precede the birth of a child, which is why Lacan can say that language is there from before the actual moment of birth. It is there in the social structures which are at play in the family and, of course, in the ideals, goals, and histories of the parents. This world of language can hardly be grasped by the newborn and yet it will act on the whole of the child's existence."

Stay informed on protecting your freedom of speech and civil rights.

SoNowThen

#57
February 15, 2004, 08:31:24 PM
Quote from: godardianI'd erase Bringing Out the Dead from his ouevre before I'd erase Cape Fear, despite my love of John Goodman, because that seems to me to be his most blah film in many ways.

For that comment, I wish a mild head cold upon you...
Those who say that the totalitarian state of the Soviet Union was not "real" Marxism also cannot admit that one simple feature of Marxism makes totalitarianism necessary:  the rejection of civil society. Since civil society is the sphere of private activity, its abolition and replacement by political society means that nothing private remains. That is already the essence of totalitarianism; and the moralistic practice of the trendy Left, which regards everything as political and sometimes reveals its hostility to free speech, does nothing to contradict this implication.

When those who hated capital and consumption (and Jews) in the 20th century murdered some hundred million people, and the poster children for the struggle against international capitalism and America are now fanatical Islamic terrorists, this puts recent enthusiasts in an awkward position. Most of them are too dense and shameless to appreciate it, and far too many are taken in by the moralistic and paternalistic rhetoric of the Left.

Fernando

#58
February 16, 2004, 10:56:12 AM
Quote from: SoNowThen
Quote from: Pkubrick's best movie, and therefore the best movie of all time, is horror.

end of argument.


Clockwork Orange isn't a horror movie.

I'd say it's a real horrorshow.

Just one more thing: P is right again.
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