Breaking Bad

Started by squints, February 25, 2009, 07:23:38 PM

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Jeremy Blackman

Amazing finale, immaculately-directed, and that was an epic music cue to go out on. But let's cut right to the meat. This happened:

Quote from: polkablues on September 16, 2013, 06:59:04 PMA lot has been made of Gilligan's "Mr. Chips to Scarface" trajectory, but I would say that part of the arc has already been completed. Gilligan has no interest in taking the character to Scarface level and leaving him there, he's looking to take the character there and then force him to figure out how to get back. Walt is on the road to redemption, the only question is what specific form that takes, and what the ultimate cost to his soul proves to be.

I felt no ambivalence about the finale while watching it, but I'm starting to come to terms with the message. Vince's "Mr. Chips to Scarface" quote is catchy, and people remember it, but he's also said on several occasions that he wanted to see if he could "take the protagonist and turn him into the antagonist."

This was not done, and it was not attempted. Walter White remained our protagonist. Even in his worst moments, there were enough flashes of humanity to keep us barely with him. In his darkest episode (Ozymandias), he still had several redeeming moments (wailing in agony at Hank's death, covering for Skyler in that phone call at great cost to himself). And now in the finale, Walter White earned a number of moral and material victories. He was always an antihero.

I'm disappointed that we didn't get to see the "protagonist to antagonist" experiment play out. But of course it's selfish to attach that disappointment to this specific show, so I'm trying not to do that. I'm going to see how this ending sits with me. Maybe I wish "protagonist to antagonist" hadn't been obliquely promised; maybe I wish I had listened to fewer Vince Gilligan interviews.

I mean I guess we saw it coming, because as I was saying here, as soon they started showing Hank callously using Jesse, and when Jesse spat in Walt's face, it was clear there would be no protagonist to serve as counterpoint for antagonist Walt. And in the ensuing episodes, we mostly tracked with Walt. Then with Granite State, we were in with him deep, and he would have had to completely snap to actually become a full antagonist. It would have taken something crazy like Walt brutally murdering Gretchen and Elliot. I still feel like I would have preferred an ending like that, because it would have completely blown everyone's minds, and they'd really have something to think about. What we got instead felt so straightforward and sometimes surprisingly predictable. Not that it was bad... just a missed opportunity to wrap things up with what would have been a more interesting message.

So, the message. I guess this is where I really have mixed feelings. I've been under the assumption that the writers have been primarily interested in punishing Walt, and in showing that his decision to "break bad" was not a good one. Obviously things have turned out cataclysmically overall, but there was so much redemption in this episode, so much material victory. And what really matters is the end. Considering where things were last episode, this was the sweetest series of victories Walt could have possibly hoped for. He even got to die taking the credit that he so much desired. He might have even died happy.

This happened:

Quote from: Jeremy Blackman on September 23, 2013, 01:53:05 AMWalt, having lost his family, has gained profound clarity about who he is and what actually drives him. You can see it in his eyes. It's not his family. It's about him, it's about making something of himself, and — as we've learned, seeing him seething under his various masters — it's about self-determination. "Live free or die."

And he basically said all of that to Skyler tonight, almost beat for beat. So here's the thing:

If it's never really been about his family, what has he really lost? I mean sure, he loved his family, and his family fell apart. But he loved himself more, and as an individual, he succeeded. He got to be a legend. He got to win, many many times. He got to truly live.

Really not sure how to feel about that right now.

E: I did not expect someone to agree with me before I even posted this. I wouldn't go as far as picolas, though.

picolas

Quote from: Drenka on September 30, 2013, 12:29:41 AM
Walt won, yes. And? What's wrong? The writer is not a good God, punishing fairly its characters.

It was predictable, yet surprising. It was the end Breaking Bad had in its DNA. I'm happy.

but it runs totally counter to the dna of the show to reward walt. i'm not saying i don't like it because it's 'unfair', i'm saying it's a huge contradiction to allow walt that kind of reward. not only personal redemption by having him understand the cause of his actions (which is cool/fine) but actually giving his family more money than he ever dreamed of giving them when he began.

to argue that things don't always work out in a fair way for the audience is like.. Exactly what i'm saying is wrong with the episode. things worked out swimmingly.

Quote from: Lord Freddie on September 30, 2013, 12:36:16 AM
- I'm cool with the family keeping the money, mostly because it's going to be given to Flynn and Holly. I don't have a problem with that, they've gone through enough.
they're still being hugely rewarded for walt's actions and murders. i mean, they absolutely deserve compensation but for walt to give them the money is undoing what the show is about, i think. and it makes walt feel like he's still a good dude at the end of the day. again i'm fine with him realizing his wrongs and taking out the remains of his empire, but rewarding his family so hard is a copout.

picolas

yes, JB. vince pulled back at the last second. he didn't have the conviction to go all the way.

i don't want to come off like a hater. this is a truly special show. it's the supreme specialness of bb that makes this all the more terrible.

Lottery

Walt got his reward because he finally gave up his ambition and greed and accepted the cost of it all. Or something like that.


Also, some people claimed this episode was too straightforward. But I like how everything was set out. It was very closely planned and Walt had decided what he wanted to do, without any deviation. The only hiccup came when he saw Jesse and kinda remembered he liked him (ha) and that caused the situation to change in a somewhat dramatic manner.

I initially wanted the other characters (Jessie) to be a bit more prominent but then I was fine with it being a fully Walt-centric episode. It was about his plan and what he wanted to do with it.

The final few minutes just feel so dark and brilliant and besides the gunfire, it feels quiet and eerie. Almost subdued in a way.
And it really makes sense that those couple of minutes was the only time that Walt and Jesse had for each other. That's all that was needed.

I guess that final episode summed up everything about Walt's initial intention. Tie everything up, keep his family safe and let death take him. It was satisfying.

Brando


I thought it was a great episode. I didn't think it was predictable. We've just been conditioned to expect something out of no where. I didn't think the episode needed that. It needed a clear ending.

Quote from: picolas on September 30, 2013, 12:47:19 AM

but it runs totally counter to the dna of the show to reward walt. i'm not saying i don't like it because it's 'unfair', i'm saying it's a huge contradiction to allow walt that kind of reward. not only personal redemption by having him understand the cause of his actions (which is cool/fine) but actually giving his family more money than he ever dreamed of giving them when he began.


Yes, Walt won. But it's not a contradiction because of what he won. It just shows how far he has fallen cause he sees this ending as a win. Walt winning wasn't healing his family or doing the best for them. It was being back at the top of his empire. You see Walt being able to get his money to Flynn as a win for Walt but I'm sure Walt sees it as a loss. It fucking kills Walt that Gretchen and Elliot are going to take credit for the money. Think about Walt's pride and everything he's done the entire series not to appear weak. There is no way to see Walt giving away credit for the money as a win.

It now seems obvious to end the show with that overhead shot since it's been used on previous iconic moments.
If you think this is going to have a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention.

ono

The music cue at the end was horrible.  Totally out of place.

The episode was mostly predictable, except for the use of Skinny Pete and Badger.  Okay, and maybe Walt's interaction with Gretchen and Elliott.

Of course Walt became the antagonist, JB.  Did you forget how he killed Mike in cold blood?  This was where he lost me, though there were occasions on 5B where his actions did bring cause for me to root for him again.  How he put a hit out on Jesse, one that he treated (albeit abusively) like his son?

I wouldn't go as far as picolas, but I do agree this was somewhat disappointing.  It was like a fan service episode.  It did have a lot of very nice payoffs: Walt's last words with Skyler, his killing the Nazis with science (a robot!), Jesse killing Todd.  But there were no true surprises, save Walt's genuine displays of humanity in the face of death.  And even that's not a surprise, because *truly* staring death in the face would of course cause one to act in this way.

This episode is also an indication of how lucky Walt truly is.  Everything went his way (except for getting one of his own bullets, but he was going to die soon anyway).  He gallivanted all throughout town without being spotted, able to meet in public to poison Lydia, to visit Skyler and look upon his children one last time, to hunt down Skinny Pete and Badger, and to return to his home which had been not only been condemned, but had been turned into a place for teens to skate in the pool.  Then, his contraption just so happens to work at the right height to spray fire on all of the Nazis (except Todd) and kill them.  He's the luckiest guy to ever die of lung cancer at middle age.  And he's exonerated Jesse by freeing him and dying in a meth lab, taking all suspicion away from him so he can now go live his life.

EDIT: Whoops, wait a minute, Jesse's not gonna be free.  He better keep driving, keep that need for speed, because since the cops have ascended on that Nazi compound, the WILL find Jesse's confession, implicating him.  It'd be nice to believe he gets the hell out of the states, because he'll never be truly free with that hanging over his head.

Jeremy Blackman

Quote from: Brando on September 30, 2013, 01:26:26 AMI didn't think it was predictable. We've just been conditioned to expect something out of no where.

The ricin and the M60 were presented as these enigmas, yet they were both destined for their most obvious targets.

The ricin thing, I have to say, was probably the worst plot move in the show's history. I don't know how they'd fix it, maybe they wrote themselves into that corner, but it was bad. It was predictable and redundant in a way that I never expected from Breaking Bad. Walt had already almost used the ricin on Lydia. It was cringe-worthy and was the one thing that immediately felt wrong. When Walt explained to Lydia that he snuck it into her Stevia, that was worth a double cringe.

Quote from: Brando on September 30, 2013, 01:26:26 AMYes, Walt won. But it's not a contradiction because of what he won. It just shows how far he has fallen cause he sees this ending as a win.

Breaking bad was the core of his ambition (not providing for his family), and he succeeded. He got to have his empire, his legendary status, even his revenge, and he went out like a hero. We can see his moral corruption as a punishment all we want, but it's really not. It was his goal.

Before the finale he went through a lot of punishment, and he lost a lot, but he gained so much of that back in one fell swoop. I'd never argue that he won everything he ever wanted... of course not. The issue is that they reversed his punishments as much as was physically possible. In Granite State he had literally nothing, and the list of his victories in the finale is kind of shocking.

polkablues

Quote from: picolas on September 30, 2013, 12:47:19 AM
but it runs totally counter to the dna of the show to reward walt. i'm not saying i don't like it because it's 'unfair', i'm saying it's a huge contradiction to allow walt that kind of reward. not only personal redemption by having him understand the cause of his actions (which is cool/fine) but actually giving his family more money than he ever dreamed of giving them when he began.

Look at it in the greater context, though. He was able to leave them money, more than he'd ever set out to do, but at a cost so much greater than he'd ever imagined. He died with his son despising him, his daughter only ever knowing him as a monster from stories, and all he could do for them is give them money. Flynn doesn't want that money, he wants his dad to have been the man he used to believe he was. That's a pretty Pyrrhic victory by any measure.

The moral thesis of the show has never been as black and white as you're making it. "Right" and "wrong" on this show is not a matter of legality vs. illegality, but selflessness vs. selfishness. Walt started cooking meth for the right reasons, and we cheered his victories and suffered his setbacks along with him. It wasn't until his ego took hold and his thirst for power overwhelmed his concern for his family that he became a villain. His redemption in the finale was not the act of giving the money or killing the Nazis, it was accepting this flaw in himself and transcending it, giving himself over to the service not of himself, but of the people he cares about whom he's harmed along the way.

Of course, as we see at the very end, that doesn't mean he's rejected what he's done (he clearly felt a tremendous amount of pride still). Again, the show isn't that simplistic. He can recognize that what he did caused untold pain to countless others, but that flaw in his very core that allowed it to happen in the first place is still there. Under the same circumstances, he would do it all again and it would end up just the same every single time. It's who Walt is. But at least by the end he's realized they're all better off without him.
My house, my rules, my coffee

Drenk

And at the end, it's still about him. He succeeded. He became the legend. They'll remember his name. And he's proud, in a way, to be remembered as a monster...

He "helped" with family with his money, but they don't want it. They don't care. Walt is joyful. But it's dreadful.

I didn't like that Walt and Jesse had Todd and Jack to kill. Too much. Everybody dies except Todd and Jack? Yeah. No. But it's the only bad point I find in Felina (and not enough Jesse.)

It's a whimper and a bang at the same time.
Ascension.

modage

I'm not sure I would say it's the worst episode but it's easily the episode where its (IMO) missteps do the most harm to the series. Otherwise in complete agreement.

A few of my disappointments came with expectations of things I expected vs. things I got and were helped by a second viewing without those preconceptions. But my biggest issue with the finale overall is that it backpedaled on Walt's punishment. (And Skyler's for that matter. And allowed Jesse to murder a murderer? There goes his clean moral slate...)

For the last couple of years I'd thought I was watching a show whose message would ultimately be about how Walt's behavior results in hell being wrought for those around him and eventually him. The finale seemed to propose almost the opposite. It almost says, "Better to have broken bad and truly lived than to have never lived at all." I'm having a lot of trouble with this.
Christopher Nolan's directive was clear to everyone in the cast and crew: Use CGI only as a last resort.

Lottery

Quote from: modage on September 30, 2013, 07:55:38 AM
And allowed Jesse to murder a murderer? There goes his clean moral slate...)

Isn't that like his third kill of the show? I mean it was admittedly brutal but whatever.


I think that point was made throughout the last few seasons. Hell was wrought for him and his family, resulting in the suffering of everyone. At this point, Walt's thoroughly learned this. Yes, he wins and you might see that as too neat but he has the final understanding of actions and accepts the reality of it for the most part. It was a learning experience for him to some degree.
I wouldn't say that's the final message it's imparting, they've demonstrated the ill fortunes of his actions for five seasons. Walt has had the luck of ending this on his terms- I mean the happenings of this show is the result  of chance as well error.

modage

Quote from: Lottery on September 30, 2013, 08:36:13 AM
Quote from: modage on September 30, 2013, 07:55:38 AM
And allowed Jesse to murder a murderer? There goes his clean moral slate...)
Isn't that like his third kill of the show? I mean it was admittedly brutal but whatever.
Yes and you saw what each and every one of those decisions did to him in the months following. He put himself through hell. Not to mention the physical and emotional pain he suffered throughout the show. I would say that earns Jesse his moral slate clean if he chose it. But to say, yeah well murdering a psychopath is cool, is kind of weird for me. Yes, Todd was a monster and yes, he deserved it but for Jesse to learn that "murder is okay if it's murdering someone bad and for the purposes of revenge/getting even" is a very weird note to leave the character on.

Quote from: Lottery on September 30, 2013, 08:36:13 AM
I think that point was made throughout the last few seasons. Hell was wrought for him and his family, resulting in the suffering of everyone. At this point, Walt's thoroughly learned this. Yes, he wins and you might see that as too neat but he has the final understanding of actions and accepts the reality of it for the most part. It was a learning experience for him to some degree.
I wouldn't say that's the final message it's imparting, they've demonstrated the ill fortunes of his actions for five seasons. Walt has had the luck of ending this on his terms- I mean the happenings of this show is the result  of chance as well error.
But what Walt learned was, he was willing to sacrifice all those things in order to feel alive and be great at something and leave a legacy behind. He never apologized or had to. He never was forced to consider the things he did to be as terrible as they were for those around him. His realization was that he did it for himself but also that it was worth it and he wouldn't change a thing.

Essential Vince Gilligan interview at EW. Very wishy washy, "So it could be argued that he pays for his sins at the end or it could just as easily be argued that he gets away with it." That is not the show I thought I was watching. The thing is that I still did sympathize with Walt but I also wanted the show to kick me in the teeth at the end for doing so.
Christopher Nolan's directive was clear to everyone in the cast and crew: Use CGI only as a last resort.

©brad

You really have a problem with Jesse killing that sociopath Todd? That was such a cathartic moment they've been building towards for several episodes now. From the beginning Jesse never had or will have a clean moral slate, and I'm glad it didn't end that way. I love him as a character but there is no redemption for him and he knows that. He killed Gale point blank, not to mention several others. Even if he escapes the country and spends the rest of his days on a beach in Mexico, he has to live with everything he's done. There's really no happy ending for him, just a less miserable one.

Polka said this well that you can't look at this show in black and white terms. I don't see how anyone can say Walt wasn't punished. Did you guys watch the last few episodes? His brother-in-law is dead, his son disowned him, his family's legacy is forever tainted and even with money, Skylar, Jr and Holly will have a pretty tough life forever being associated with Walt.

modage

Walt did horrible things and those around him suffered, while he got to go out like a legend, feeling his most alive, with $8m to leave to his family who doesn't want it. That's a victory.

"Walt has failed on so many levels, but he has managed to do the one thing he set out to do, which is a victory. He has managed to make his family financially sound in his absence, and that was really the only thing he set out to do in that first episode. So, mission accomplished." - Vince Gilligan

At its very best this show transcended its genre roots to be something richer, deeper, weirder. But for the finale, it seems like they were content to deliver a finale that stuck strictly to genre. Jesse killing Todd is cathartic for the audience, but it shouldn't be. I thought this was a show where actions have consequences. And murdering someone to get even would be something not looked at as a win.

Just search your hearts, everyone. Sum up in one sentence what the show was really ABOUT. What was it telling the audience? What were we supposed to learn from watching Walt on this journey? I'd be curious to see your thoughts.

I'd say that "Breaking Bad" is about a man facing death and realizing his true potential, spending his remaining time living life to the fullest and going out at the height of his powers.
Christopher Nolan's directive was clear to everyone in the cast and crew: Use CGI only as a last resort.

Neil

First let me say, i'm glad we got to see that good looking box. That was a great scene. I really liked all the flashbacks that this ep had, Jesse and his box and the one with walt in his old home.

I was here typing some of the same things as brad, but while debating whether or not I should 'post,' i refreshed a new tab and you beat me to it.  Then mod posted in-between that time too. So, i'll just put a few of the things that I had in mind.

As far Todd's death goes,  Jesse was tortured and enslaved, and forced to watch Brock become an Orphan.  I find it a bit weird to try and bring "logic" into that situation.  I also find it weird that just because Jesse consistenly shows emotions over these terrible acts he's committed that there's this yearning to rest assured about his "moral slate."  Fuck that, be happy he's alive because he's LUCKY.  His moral slate was toast once Walt started using him as his little puppet.  That's the theme of the show.  How one breaks bad and through the manipulation of others he cause their lives to get caught up in that whirlwind/downward spiral of breaking bad. It might be worth noting that this theme was prevalent in the finale as well.  Jesse is so lucky that he made it out alive and the only reason he survived WAS BECAUSE OF WALT! almost full circle.  walt brought him in and ruined his life, then saved what was left of it.

Lastly, since Walt was screwed out of the corporate world, in what may have been his only legitimate opportunity for greatness (or at least maximizing his potential as a man), don't you feel like the blood money/drug money grievances are sort of a waste of time?  We are well beyond that at this point.  That's why the money must come from Gretchen and Elliott/Grey Matter, because Walt was owed that anyways. From my angle Walt is owed that money, because if he'd been given what he was owed, Meth might not have even entered the equation.


Quote from: modage on September 30, 2013, 07:55:38 AM
It almost says, "Better to have broken bad and truly lived than to have never lived at all." I'm having a lot of trouble with this.

I just don't see this at all. People will still have to live with Walt's decisions, i think this is made pretty clear when walt hands over the lotto ticket. 
There's a lot of wreckage from Walt's path that may never get cleaned up. The finale just made it clear that his motives were not solely rooted in the heart of gold mentality that walt had been claiming previously. He did it for himself and tried to legitimize it through his family. To me this is the most brilliant thing the show could've done. That reveal in the kitchen was awesome btw.
it's not the wrench, it's the plumber.