I’m Thinking of Ending Things

Started by Drenk, August 06, 2020, 08:31:33 AM

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Drenk

SPOILERS

It's not suicide. It's dementia. The movie isn't actually clear about what happens at the end, there might not even be a death. Even if it certainly feels that way, yes.

The imagination is mixed with a deteriorating memory, sense of self, which is the matrix with which the movie is vibing. I didn't find it tedious, I was entertained. Both actors are fantastic in the car scenes: the editing also participates in creating a playful rhythm. I wasn't depressed at the end. It felt soothing.

Just not a fan of the parents: the actors and the scenes with them could have been better, even if they're just memories/anxietes and not persons. And the last scenes felt quite awkward: hard movie to end, I guess.
Ascension.

jenkins

oh it's not surrealism it's dementia. well that is sadder, i'll give you that

Jeremy Blackman

SPOILERS

I don't have a strong opinion on this myself – was basically just parroting the interpretation from that podcast. They state as fact that, in the book, the janitor character does literally "end things" by cutting his throat. But yeah, perhaps that was a metaphor for dementia.

Drenk

SPOILERS

Robin Williams committed suicide for similar reasons, after all. Suicide because you fear of losing your mind isn't the same as regular depression. That character seems too far gone to make an actual decision and that's probably why Kaufman changed it. So yeah, accidentally freezing to death is probably the case in the movie. But it doesn't matter to have an actual answer to this question. The movie definitely ends with some sort of disparition, which I found soothing.

And making a fragmented portrait that way, including texts and quotes and references as being a part of the self, is sociologically interesting. It's Kaufmanesque in the sense that he is interested in what he calls the "Unseen" in his novel and a certain sense of "oh well" aspect about mortality.

For those interested in trans analogies in his work, you can see the movie less as Jake inventing a girlfriend as Jake inventing a body in which he would be comfortable. You feel like nobody? Well. Get Some Body. The different names make me think of the period of time when trans women try to find the right name. And Jake exists as a character in this movie through her.
Ascension.

jenkins

certainly dementia is a frightening state of being

everybody everywhere is interested in the unseen and mortality

she shapes Jake

Drenk i think you're doing a fine job of discussing the movie, and jb did a fine job of finding that podcast, and for me what it does is centralize the movie's state of sadness. so i'm less likely to rewatch it now, but if i do rewatch it i will better understand it

csage97

Great points, Drenk. "And making a fragmented portrait that way, including texts and quotes and references as being a part of the self, is sociologically interesting. It's Kaufmanesque in the sense that he is interested in what he calls the "Unseen" in his novel and a certain sense of "oh well" aspect about mortality" ... yes! I'm reading the novel right now too.  And I agree about the actors in the car scenes. I think Kaufman handled all of this very well the more I reflect -- like you said, the sense of deteriorating memory, the self, the invention from imagination -- it's all part of the fabric and mix of the technique of the movie. It's what kept me interested and allowed the extended car scenes to work for me, and I adored the acting in these scenes. The relative unconventionality of all this in these extended car scenes was what kept me entertained. I loved it.

I think these points are nudging me back towards the other direction of my initial reaction -- which was that I really enjoyed it and there was plenty to love and think about with it. I still have a couple hangups about it, but hey, that's totally fine with me.

WorldForgot

Quote from: Drenk on September 09, 2020, 11:40:50 AM
SPOILERS

And making a fragmented portrait that way, including texts and quotes and references as being a part of the self, is sociologically interesting. It's Kaufmanesque in the sense that he is interested in what he calls the "Unseen" in his novel and a certain sense of "oh well" aspect about mortality.

Partly articulates why I think House of Leaves might be best adapted in Kaufman's hands, though I haven't read Kaufman's novels.

Dialogue from this movie keeps popping up in my head, particularly I guess because I over intellectualize my reactions.

Spoiler: ShowHide
"Everything wants to live Jake. Viruses are just one more example of everything."
"Very nice parents, you chose well my friend."
"Wow is an all purpose exclamation. I just realized that."

jenkins

i did think that in the long run liking this movie was the better bet. i multiple times expressed that other ways

Drenk

The funny thing is that I really don't dig House of Leaves.  :yabbse-grin:
Ascension.

Shughes

SPOILERS

Quote from: Drenk on September 09, 2020, 11:40:50 AM
For those interested in trans analogies in his work, you can see the movie less as Jake inventing a girlfriend as Jake inventing a body in which he would be comfortable. You feel like nobody? Well. Get Some Body. The different names make me think of the period of time when trans women try to find the right name. And Jake exists as a character in this movie through her.

I'm not sure about the trans analogy but it does go some way towards explaining the thing that irked me most about all of this. I had been thinking - if Jake/The Old Man is the protagonist then why is everything presented from the female character's point of view?

It felt like a device for Kaufman to tell this story from a female perspective, which I liked. But then I was annoyed when Jake's story was resolved and she became secondary. So to say that He/Jake/The Old Man is speaking through her at least makes narrative sense, and doesn't abandon the character I assumed was the protagonist (her).

Perhaps I'll get more from it on a second viewing. I liked it. It often veered towards confusion rather than mystery. But I'm still thinking about it, so that's something.

The long car scenes were my favourite parts.

Drenk

SPOILERS

Well, I agree that I found the ending awkward when the movie shifts from her to Just Jake, I lost the connection I had with the story and am left with a shell, the empty egg.
Ascension.

csage97

Quote from: Shughes on September 09, 2020, 06:26:03 PM
SPOILERS

Quote from: Drenk on September 09, 2020, 11:40:50 AM
For those interested in trans analogies in his work, you can see the movie less as Jake inventing a girlfriend as Jake inventing a body in which he would be comfortable. You feel like nobody? Well. Get Some Body. The different names make me think of the period of time when trans women try to find the right name. And Jake exists as a character in this movie through her.

I'm not sure about the trans analogy but it does go some way towards explaining the thing that irked me most about all of this. I had been thinking - if Jake/The Old Man is the protagonist then why is everything presented from the female character's point of view?

It felt like a device for Kaufman to tell this story from a female perspective, which I liked. But then I was annoyed when Jake's story was resolved and she became secondary. So to say that He/Jake/The Old Man is speaking through her at least makes narrative sense, and doesn't abandon the character I assumed was the protagonist (her).

Old Jake is inventing/constructing the women, and in many respects she IS thus Jake. She is both separate and a part of him. So to view the story from her perspective is still to view it from Jake's. Have you ever thought or daydreamed of how a potential or idealized partner would view you and your life? How a person you want to welcome into your life might react to your childhood home, your parents, your life? I confess I do this all the time.

That's at least my interpretation of it. The point where the invented woman (Jesse Buckley) becomes secondary is the point where Jake's fantasy intersects with his reality -- essentially where the fantasy ends. We come to the critical point where Jake must accept the falsehood of the fantasy and face his suicidal ideation in reality.

jenkins

not to fuck your shit up, but the idea of the fantasy ending strays from the concept of dementia

it's okay bc your first paragraph slays and i'll quote it

QuoteSo to view the story from her perspective is still to view it from Jake's.

Justin Chang, my favorite contemporary movie critic, is pro-thismovie and points out that the cassavetes diss is taken from pauline kael. so the character is imagining the diss coming from a woman he admires (who doesn't admire kael?)

csage97

Oh, I personally haven't thought about the dementia angle much and actually hadn't until it was mentioned in this thread. I think I mentioned deteriorating memory but I'm not sure I view it from a reading of dementia, though I think it's totally possible and interesting. Dementia definitely hadn't occurred to me within my lens while viewing the film nor right after. My framework for interpretation was that an old-aged Jake invents/fantasizes/constructs a narrative of how part of his life could've been different, and wrestles with self-love (self-loathing or disappointment in himself?). That's why the narrative keeps changing (of course) but Buckley (the girlfriend) who's also an extension of him by virtue of his invention also has negative feelings toward Jake (himself).

I really can't recall what exactly was said during the Kael part and I'm not super familiar with Kael's work, so it's hard for me to piece together that part. But my working hypothesis is that Buckley's character was pieced together by Jake from things that he enjoyed as a younger self but never fully pursued (after all, he ended up staying in his parents' house and becoming a janitor at his local high school, never leaving the town). (He also was there for his parents' death, so this is why the age of the parents keeps changing. He's unsure of where exactly in the timeline to place this hypothetical partner played by Buckley.) You'll note that Buckley's occupation changes from quantum physics to poet and back, so she's being constructed and revised by Jake from moment to moment.

jenkins

totally. so the dementia angle introduces a uncontrollable element to the narrative design. it is far different to write about a man who cannot control his thoughts than to write about one who can. suddenly nobody is in control, he is not in control of himself or his thoughts. suddenly he is not sad but gripped by the tragic hands of fate. suddenly he has nothing to do with who he is

about kael i mean he would remember kael and want to imagine it as something he heard in conversation. kael basically thought cassavetes was bullshit