Eyes Wide Shut

[cowboykurtis]

another question i've always had is - how does mandy know that "he doesn't belong" at the party.

Zielgler seems to explaing how the "hosts" of the party found out (the taxi, the receipt).

But how would she come to this conclusion?

[socketlevel]

Things that still puzzle me:

1. The guy that nods Bill at the orgy.
2. Mr. Milich (Rainbow fashions owner) involment in the whole thing, I don't think he was at the party but he might know about it.
3. What would happen to Bill had Mandy not 'saved' him.

i would imagine that everyone at the orgy would wear the same masks from each orgy to the next.  since that person didn't recognize his mask, then it was like a greeting nod (yet cautious at that).  either that or it's sydney's character.

the other two i don't know, with 3 i guess it all depends on whether or not sydney's character is telling the truth.  if he is than nothing, they would have scared him a bit more.  if he's not telling the truth than they probably would have gang banged him then either killed him or left him in the cold.

on another note, and i don't know if this was brought up before, does anyone remember the P.A. that could be seen in the theatrical print of the film?  right when he's leaving the bathroom with the O.D.ed hooker you could see a guy with a clipboard clearly in the reflection in the metal rim of the shower.  i remember seeing it instantly in the theater.

beyond just being a geek and bringing that up right now, i remember i was blown away at the time thinking, "Holy shit, how could Kubrick let that happen?!"  i then thought he was getting really old and lazy, or else, it mattered in some way to the film.  what do you guys think?  I tend to doubt the second theory because it was removed in the subsequent dvd releases.

i guess it could possibly be that he didn't care all that much, kinda like the shot in the shining when you can see the helicopter and the propeller later.  i know the shadow was supposed to be a fade and not a cut in that movie, but why he never took either of those out confuses me.

-sl-

[cowboykurtis]

i would imagine that everyone at the orgy would wear the same masks from each orgy to the next.  since that person didn't recognize his mask, then it was like a greeting nod (yet cautious at that).  either that or it's sydney's character.

I think the nod of recognition is just a matter of him walking in suspicously late -  he walked in on the middle of the cerimony and he's standing alone, away from the crowd - id imagine this would bring attention to him - at this point, their suspicoins lead to having his coat checked - where they found the receipt, etc. theres no way sydney's character would be able to know that its dr. bill upon his immediate arrival.

which leads back to the hooker not being able to know its dr. bill either.

i don't think the mask concept really holds up - there are so many fucking people with so many masks, I don't think you could keep track of them all.

[Gamblour.]

I think the nod and the hooker knowing he doesn't belong are all amazingly mysterious left unrationalized. As if they could peer right into Dr. Bill's soul.

[Pubrick]

I think the nod and the hooker knowing he doesn't belong are all amazingly mysterious left unrationalized. As if they could peer right into Dr. Bill's soul.

did u steal that from sumone? cos that's amazing insight which totally cancels out all the other crap u've said.

on another note, and i don't know if this was brought up before, does anyone remember the P.A. that could be seen in the theatrical print of the film?  right when he's leaving the bathroom with the O.D.ed hooker you could see a guy with a clipboard clearly in the reflection in the metal rim of the shower.  i remember seeing it instantly in the theater

yeah that was posted in the toilets thread

- reflection:

there's little to no "significance" in it. really, proposing that the 2-frame reflection has anything to do with the movie is even more crazy than the indian and son theories combined. is that why so many ppl can't make up new theories?

there's no point in focussing on minor details unless u hav a context. the truth of kubrick, as spielberg put it, has always been "starting with broad brushstrokes, then working on the details".

[socketlevel]

theres no way sydney's character would be able to know that its dr. bill upon his immediate arrival.

i don't think the mask concept really holds up - there are so many fucking people with so many masks, I don't think you could keep track of them all.

i thought sydney because the mask he is wearing actually looks a lot like him.  but who the fuck knows, just a thought.

and i wouldn't be surprised if those masks were used again and again.  like a deviant sexual persona or something.

-sl-

[Gamblour.]

did u steal that from sumone? cos that's amazing insight which totally cancels out all the other crap u've said.

I don't think I did. Ask Pete.

And P, I'd be careful quoting Spielberg, he's also the guy saying you would be crying at the end of Revenge of the Sith.

Are there many critics who believe this film is actually all a dream? or at least Dr. Bill's?

[Sleuth]

I don't know, I haven't seen it yet

[Pubrick]

Are there many critics who believe this film is actually all a dream? or at least Dr. Bill's?

scorsese and alex cox say the film is a dream in the Life in Pictures doco. the spielberg quote was just so it didn't seem i was stealing his words to describe kubrick's approach, he was right in that at least.

[Gabe]

That would be a way better dream to have than the Mulholland dr. chick's.

[ᾦɐļᵲʊʂ]

Are there many critics who believe this film is actually all a dream? or at least Dr. Bill's?

I got the feeling it was a dream the first time I saw it...


Possible spoilers...



First off, something that seemed to give it away was how Cruise and Kidman phrased things to each other, especially in the end dialogue.  Kidman talked about not cheating in real life, and Cruise said not in dreams.  As far as the audience knows, neither has cheated on the other.
So, with that in mind, we know for sure Cruise has always attempted to cheat on Kidman, through two girls at the party, through a Hooker, and through the chick at the party.  He tried, almost as a revenge, to get Kidman back for admitting a dream about cheating.  I don't think that would drive a man to cheat on his wife -- cheating because of a dream?  Although the film centers on plastic rich people, I don't think it was meant to be that plastic.  Anyway, Cruise kept trying to cheat on her felt guilty and gave up.  Most married men, or at least those that I've talked to, have fantasies about sex with all sorts of women other than their wife, sure, but sex dreams are much rarer.  In most cases they've programmed their mind to their wife, since they've been married for so long, they kind of think of sex only with the one they're so familiar with.  

In Cruise's dream, he tries to sleep around, but the programmed internal guilt sets in. He can't allow himself, even in the dream world to cheat on his wife.  Like having a job, and having a dream working at the job.  Your mind treats it like a default.

I've never been too sure exactly when the dream would start in EWS, it's possible it starts right at the beginning of the film.  The whole orgy party itself gives liscence to the idea of a dream.  It seems so dramatic.  An elaborate sex party with women sex slaves, a man's life in danger, a woman sacrificing herself, the whole thing being a secret that you can't tell anyone about.  Perhaps that itself is the focal point of the dream.  He tried to have sex with other women, and they ended up dead somehow.  

The ending has always had multiple meanings to me...

He can't take the guilt, he confesses the extremely detailed dream where he countlessly tried to cheat, and they talked it out, and realized the main problem, in the end, was the lack of sex led him to develop a strange desire, that he couldn't allow himself to fulfill, even in his own mind.

The other apparent conclusion was the whole movie was Cruise's preoccupation with sex.  Every situation started with sex, and boiled down to a horrible conclusion... overdose, AIDS, being whored by your father...
Sex seemed to cause every problem, but in the end we learned nothing, as we see from Kidman's closing line.

[cowboykurtis]

He tried, almost as a revenge, to get Kidman back for admitting a dream about cheating.  I don't think that would drive a man to cheat on his wife -- cheating because of a dream?

I think you percieved this incorrectly, which dillutes your aguement.

The situation she describes with the sailor is not a dream she had, rather a desire. She  clearly stated that she saw him on vacation and became infactuated with him  -- that she went so far as to thinking about the sailor even as her husband made love to her - and went further by stating that she was willing to give away everything they had worked for, just for the chance of living this desire out - and possibly would have, if the sailor hadn't left.

A conscious desire is much more melignant than a unconscious dream.

She pretty much says I had a desire and wanted to act on it, but wasn't given the chance.

Some would argue that infidelity of the mind is just as powerful as that of the body.

[Gamblour.]

In Cruise's dream, he tries to sleep around, but the programmed internal guilt sets in. He can't allow himself, even in the dream world to cheat on his wife.

Does he really try?

When he visits his patient, immediately after the pot smoking scene, he's confronted with a woman who would give up her husband and everything just to have Dr. Bill, much like Alice's fantasy about the marine. He's obviously disgusted by this. When he picks up the hooker, his wife calls and he's reminded that he should go home. Here, it's a matter of not getting caught, not so much out and out guilt, and also a matter of chance, in that he was an inch away from getting HIV. The little girl? Well he never wanted sex with her. At the orgy he doesn't try and have sex. With the two chicks at the party, he's only flirting as much as Alice was. Just two different approaches, being serenaded and being directly propositioned, it's all a matter of reading between the lines.

Dr. Bill's not trying to have sex, and he doesn't have much guilt. He's tormented by the fantasy his wife has, the mental infidelity, and the only thing I think he really does is consider a life without his wife, where sex from so many different angles is offered and could be enjoyed. Everything from the regular John's $150 hooker to an elitist orgy, with such higher-ups involved that one wouldn't sleep well.

My main reason for not believing it's a dream is that it's just not as interesting. I'm going to pompously quote Kubrick: "Real is good, interesting is better." Here, Dr. Bill visits fantastic worlds of sex. Realistically, things aren't this grandiose, there's not as much sex, drugs and murder. But isn't there? What if there were this giant world of sex on the surface levels of society all the way to the under, underground? That's what's interesting. If it's a dream, anything can happen, and that devalues everything we see. If it's all real, it's all the more disturbing. It's actually an ironic use of his quote, that the interesting is the real, which makes it better.

[cowboykurtis]

In Cruise's dream, he tries to sleep around, but the programmed internal guilt sets in. He can't allow himself, even in the dream world to cheat on his wife.

Does he really try?

When he visits his patient, immediately after the pot smoking scene, he's confronted with a woman who would give up her husband and everything just to have Dr. Bill, much like Alice's fantasy about the marine. He's obviously disgusted by this. When he picks up the hooker, his wife calls and he's reminded that he should go home. Here, it's a matter of not getting caught, not so much out and out guilt.

Dr. Bill's not trying to have sex, and he doesn't have much guilt.

I disagree - I think he is trying to have sex - I also think he has guilt. I think the whole film is about thoughts and desires being just as strong as actions...

Regarding the woman who's husband dies - very little time has passed since his wife told him about her fantasy - his jealousy has not fully set in at this point. Also, he's very aware Karl will be there any minute - he's not going to make any advances on her - its not the time or place. And if you remember correctly, later in the film, after trying to get laid and failing, he calls her home from his office - her boyfriend Karl picks up and Dr. Bill quickly hangs up - He was calling to pursue her sexually - If he was calling to check up on her, he would have spoken to Karl.

Regarding Domino the hooker. He was approached by a woman for sex. He went into her apartment on his own will expecting sex - started making out  with the intention of sleeping with her and his phone rang with his wife on the line- i.e. his conscious and guilt interrupted his desires. His reason for not proceeding with Domino was not so he wouldnt get caught by his wife - She  knew he was out with a patient - she said ok im going to bed - hes in the clear, theres no suspicion on her end- he could have fucked domino's brains out and went home. However his guilt set in and he did not.

Regarding the orgy. I feel he didn't engage for two reason. 1. The atmosphere was so bizarre that he needed to test the water before actually engaging in this. Any sober minded individual who stumbled upon such a sight would not immediatly pull his pants down and go to town on the first woman he saw 2. He was warned that "he shouldn't be here" by a hooker. Before he was able to act on any desire, she was back with him saying "what are you doing, you shoudn't be here." Before long he was caught.

Lastly we have Domino's roommate - They start to go at it. Dr. Bill is in full complaince and SHE stops the wheels. After hearing that a hooker he almost fucked the night proir has been diagnosed with HIV, I don't think anyone would be in the mood for casual sex with a stranger. Again the guilt and thought of what he may have done disturbs him as much as doing the act itself.

[ᾦɐļᵲʊʂ]

I don't necessarily believe that's it's strictly a dream, but when I thought it was a dream, I used the reasoning I provided a few posts up.

I've sort of come into the idea it's everything about sex except for the physical act of fornicating.  It's the politics and the emotions and all that surrounding sex.