Author Topic: Iraq and You  (Read 11802 times)

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Gold Trumpet

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Iraq and You
« Reply #105 on: March 18, 2003, 08:31:42 PM »
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I wonder how many people think I am a conservative or anyone else that supports war on Iraq.

With talk focusing on lies that Bush and Blair did and all with connections of Hussein to Bin Laden, I'm still wondering how diplomacy is going to remove illegal weapons from Iraq with a government that is trying its best to hide them (and if anyone disagrees that Iraq is not trying to hide them and not giving full cooperation to the weapons inspectors, then their location of thought is on another planet). While people complain that Iraq is not showing obvious threat as N. Korea with their nukes, history has shown Hussein has commanded a mastery for biological weapons such as anthrax and others. The fact is, Iraq did violate resolution 1441 and can be rightfully be removed of its standing government for not doing so. Or shall bringing up this point just bring excuses of how Israel did such and such? Well, this is a different situation and I am not giving my opinion of Israel right now. My position is that Hussein is a clear cancer to the world and can and should be removed before he is able to do anything.

~rougerum

Cecil

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Iraq and You
« Reply #106 on: March 18, 2003, 08:53:34 PM »
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Quote from: xerxes
we really need a sarcasm smiley or something


no, no, that would ruin the fun

Redlum

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Iraq and You
« Reply #107 on: March 19, 2003, 03:54:11 AM »
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Quote from: The Gold Trumpet
I wonder how many people think I am a conservative or anyone else that supports war on Iraq.

With talk focusing on lies that Bush and Blair did and all with connections of Hussein to Bin Laden, I'm still wondering how diplomacy is going to remove illegal weapons from Iraq with a government that is trying its best to hide them (and if anyone disagrees that Iraq is not trying to hide them and not giving full cooperation to the weapons inspectors, then their location of thought is on another planet). While people complain that Iraq is not showing obvious threat as N. Korea with their nukes, history has shown Hussein has commanded a mastery for biological weapons such as anthrax and others. The fact is, Iraq did violate resolution 1441 and can be rightfully be removed of its standing government for not doing so. Or shall bringing up this point just bring excuses of how Israel did such and such? Well, this is a different situation and I am not giving my opinion of Israel right now. My position is that Hussein is a clear cancer to the world and can and should be removed before he is able to do anything.

~rougerum


I agree with you, its just a shame that it *had* to be done in a way that is so dissruptive to the international community. What the uk, us and spain (dont forget spain) are doing, almost completely undermines the UN's authority in the world.

I also wonder whether they'll have the courage to return to Korea to continue the war on terror.

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©brad

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Iraq and You
« Reply #108 on: March 19, 2003, 06:51:01 AM »
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this has to be the first time in history a president has given another president an ultimatum to leave his own country, right?

jmj

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Iraq and You
« Reply #109 on: March 19, 2003, 07:41:36 AM »
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Hell's bells.
Gorobei Katayama: You're Good.
Heihachi Hayashida: Yeah, yeah. But I'm better at killing enemies.
Gorobei Katayama: Killed many?
Heihachi Hayashida: Well - It's impossible to kill 'em all, so I ususally run away.
Gorobei Katayama: A splendid principle!
Heihachi Hayashida: Thank you.

Jeremy Blackman

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Iraq and You
« Reply #110 on: March 19, 2003, 08:03:17 AM »
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Quote from: The Gold Trumpet
Or shall bringing up this point just bring excuses of how Israel did such and such? Well, this is a different situation and I am not giving my opinion of Israel right now. My position is that Hussein is a clear cancer to the world and can and should be removed before he is able to do anything.


Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could remove all the cancer from the world? We can't. Not without creating more cancer.

You (and others) keep using "diplomacy" as a shorthand for "weapons inspections" ...  :roll: .. sigh...
"Hunger is the purest sin"

xerxes

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Iraq and You
« Reply #111 on: March 19, 2003, 12:13:11 PM »
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jeremy, i think it may be time for us to throw in the towel...

 :(
There is a reason why most clowns have red hair - it's called hate

Duck Sauce

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« Reply #112 on: March 19, 2003, 12:39:06 PM »
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Bombs over Baghdad




 :(

jmj

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« Reply #113 on: March 19, 2003, 12:47:44 PM »
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Quote from: Duck Sauce
Bombs over Baghdad


Funny you should mention that...I'm pretty sure that's going to be dubya's theme song for his re-election campaign.  That and "Fuck Peace with Bush and Dick" t-shirts.  Sounds like a winning combo...
Gorobei Katayama: You're Good.
Heihachi Hayashida: Yeah, yeah. But I'm better at killing enemies.
Gorobei Katayama: Killed many?
Heihachi Hayashida: Well - It's impossible to kill 'em all, so I ususally run away.
Gorobei Katayama: A splendid principle!
Heihachi Hayashida: Thank you.

Jeremy Blackman

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Iraq and You
« Reply #114 on: March 19, 2003, 01:01:55 PM »
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Quote from: xerxes
jeremy, i think it may be time for us to throw in the towel...

 :(


Well, it's going to happen, there's no arguing that... but that's no reason to give up! He should not be allowed to do this unchecked. Everyone should pay close attention to the news, particularily alternative news sources (and NPR), within the next few days. Right now, as everyone in congress is saying "shut up and support the troops" (a little guilt can go a long way), there are massive anti-war protests being planned for the moment war breaks out.

Remember, we have already had the biggest peace protests the world has ever seen, and the war hasn't even begun. I'm just trying to latch on to some kind of optimism.
"Hunger is the purest sin"

Derek

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Iraq and You
« Reply #115 on: March 19, 2003, 01:04:09 PM »
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Bush is saving the people who are throwing pies in his face. Everyone should be grateful there is a leader with the balls to step up to the plate.
It's like, how much more black could this be? And the answer is none. None more black.

xerxes

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Iraq and You
« Reply #116 on: March 19, 2003, 01:27:50 PM »
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Quote from: Jeremy Blackman

Well, it's going to happen, there's no arguing that... but that's no reason to give up! He should not be allowed to do this unchecked. Everyone should pay close attention to the news, particularily alternative news sources (and NPR), within the next few days. Right now, as everyone in congress is saying "shut up and support the troops" (a little guilt can go a long way), there are massive anti-war protests being planned for the moment war breaks out.

Remember, we have already had the biggest peace protests the world has ever seen, and the war hasn't even begun. I'm just trying to latch on to some kind of optimism.


i agree completely, my comment was directed more at this site... and continuing to argue here... with that said, let me do a bit more of it...

Quote from: Derek
Bush is saving the people who are throwing pies in his face. Everyone should be grateful there is a leader with the balls to step up to the plate.


there are so many things wrong with what you just said... what exactly is he saving us from??? what bush will be doing is killing thousands of iraqi citizens. open your eyes people
There is a reason why most clowns have red hair - it's called hate

jmj

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Iraq and You
« Reply #117 on: March 19, 2003, 01:44:53 PM »
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Quote from: Jeremy Blackman
Well, it's going to happen, there's no arguing that... but that's no reason to give up! He should not be allowed to do this unchecked. Everyone should pay close attention to the news, particularily alternative news sources (and NPR), within the next few days. Right now, as everyone in congress is saying "shut up and support the troops" (a little guilt can go a long way), there are massive anti-war protests being planned for the moment war breaks out.  Remember, we have already had the biggest peace protests the world has ever seen, and the war hasn't even begun. I'm just trying to latch on to some kind of optimism.


Thank you!  I hope people dog Bush until the day his sorry ass leaves the White House.  I hope the UN doesn't pussy out on this issue either.  I want to see his ass on the stand in internationl court.  Everyone will be glad to see Hussein gone but what about this whole Emperical move by Bush to make Iraq a "model" for democracy in the middle east.  Sounds like neo-colonialism to me.  Also, when Bush is on the news talking about how much his faith plays a role in his decisions and that he follows G_d.  What the fuck are Muslims around the world supposed to make of that?  Sounds like fundamentalism to me.  On top of NPR you can also visit http://news.bbc.co.uk/ for some real news.
Gorobei Katayama: You're Good.
Heihachi Hayashida: Yeah, yeah. But I'm better at killing enemies.
Gorobei Katayama: Killed many?
Heihachi Hayashida: Well - It's impossible to kill 'em all, so I ususally run away.
Gorobei Katayama: A splendid principle!
Heihachi Hayashida: Thank you.

jmj

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Iraq and You
« Reply #118 on: March 19, 2003, 01:50:38 PM »
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Here's some more food for thought on this issue:  U.S. Diplomat's Letter of Resignation.  I saw this guy on "Now with Bill Moyers" and it's pretty clear that this guy isn't trying to win votes.  He's doing what he thinks is the right thing as a human.
----------------------------------

REGION: USA
SOURCE: NY TIMES

The following is the text of John Brady Kiesling's letter of resignation to Secretary of State Colin L. Powell. Mr. Kiesling is a career diplomat who has served in United States embassies from Tel Aviv to Casablanca to Yerevan.

Dear Mr. Secretary:

I am writing you to submit my resignation from the Foreign Service of the United States and from my position as Political Counselor in U.S. Embassy Athens, effective March 7. I do so with a heavy heart. The baggage of my upbringing included a felt obligation to give something back to my country. Service as a U.S. diplomat was a dream job. I was paid to understand foreign languages and cultures, to seek out diplomats, politicians, scholars and journalists, and to persuade them that U.S. interests and theirs fundamentally coincided. My faith in my country and its values was the most powerful weapon in my diplomatic arsenal.

It is inevitable that during twenty years with the State Department I would become more sophisticated and cynical about the narrow and selfish bureaucratic motives that sometimes shaped our policies. Human nature is what it is, and I was rewarded and promoted for understanding human nature. But until this Administration it had been possible to believe that by upholding the policies of my president I was also upholding the interests of the American people and the world. I believe it no longer.

The policies we are now asked to advance are incompatible not only with American values but also with American interests. Our fervent pursuit of war with Iraq is driving us to squander the international legitimacy that has been America's most potent weapon of both offense and defense since the days of Woodrow Wilson. We have begun to dismantle the largest and most effective web of international relationships the world has ever known. Our current course will bring instability and danger, not security.

The sacrifice of global interests to domestic politics and to bureaucratic self-interest is nothing new, and it is certainly not a uniquely American problem. Still, we have not seen such systematic distortion of intelligence, such systematic manipulation of American opinion, since the war in Vietnam. The September 11 tragedy left us stronger than before, rallying around us a vast international coalition to cooperate for the first time in a systematic way against the threat of terrorism. But rather than take credit for those successes and build on them, this Administration has chosen to make terrorism a domestic political tool, enlisting a scattered and largely defeated Al Qaeda as its bureaucratic ally. We spread disproportionate terror and confusion in the public mind, arbitrarily linking the unrelated problems of terrorism and Iraq. The result, and perhaps the motive, is to justify a vast misallocation of shrinking public wealth to the military and to weaken the safeguards that protect American citizens from the heavy hand of government. September 11 did not do as much damage to the fabric of American society as we seem determined to so to ourselves. Is the Russia of the late Romanovs really our model, a selfish, superstitious empire thrashing toward self-destruction in the name of a doomed status quo?

We should ask ourselves why we have failed to persuade more of the world that a war with Iraq is necessary. We have over the past two years done too much to assert to our world partners that narrow and mercenary U.S. interests override the cherished values of our partners. Even where our aims were not in question, our consistency is at issue. The model of Afghanistan is little comfort to allies wondering on what basis we plan to rebuild the Middle East, and in whose image and interests. Have we indeed become blind, as Russia is blind in Chechnya, as Israel is blind in the Occupied Territories, to our own advice, that overwhelming military power is not the answer to terrorism? After the shambles of post-war Iraq joins the shambles in Grozny and Ramallah, it will be a brave foreigner who forms ranks with Micronesia to follow where we lead.

We have a coalition still, a good one. The loyalty of many of our friends is impressive, a tribute to American moral capital built up over a century. But our closest allies are persuaded less that war is justified than that it would be perilous to allow the U.S. to drift into complete solipsism. Loyalty should be reciprocal. Why does our President condone the swaggering and contemptuous approach to our friends and allies this Administration is fostering, including among its most senior officials. Has "oderint dum metuant" really become our motto?

I urge you to listen to America's friends around the world. Even here in Greece, purported hotbed of European anti-Americanism, we have more and closer friends than the American newspaper reader can possibly imagine. Even when they complain about American arrogance, Greeks know that the world is a difficult and dangerous place, and they want a strong international system, with the U.S. and EU in close partnership. When our friends are afraid of us rather than for us, it is time to worry. And now they are afraid. Who will tell them convincingly that the United States is as it was, a beacon of liberty, security, and justice for the planet?

Mr. Secretary, I have enormous respect for your character and ability. You have preserved more international credibility for us than our policy deserves, and salvaged something positive from the excesses of an ideological and self-serving Administration. But your loyalty to the President goes too far. We are straining beyond its limits an international system we built with such toil and treasure, a web of laws, treaties, organizations, and shared values that sets limits on our foes far more effectively than it ever constrained America's ability to defend its interests.

I am resigning because I have tried and failed to reconcile my conscience with my ability to represent the current U.S. Administration. I have confidence that our democratic process is ultimately self-correcting, and hope that in a small way I can contribute from outside to shaping policies that better serve the security and prosperity of the American people and the world we share.
---------------------------
NOTE: For those of you who read through the whole letter and are puzzling over the phrase oderint dum metuant, it's Latin for "Let them hate us, so long as they fear us," claimed to have been a favorite saying of the Roman emperor Caligula.
Gorobei Katayama: You're Good.
Heihachi Hayashida: Yeah, yeah. But I'm better at killing enemies.
Gorobei Katayama: Killed many?
Heihachi Hayashida: Well - It's impossible to kill 'em all, so I ususally run away.
Gorobei Katayama: A splendid principle!
Heihachi Hayashida: Thank you.

Derek

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Iraq and You
« Reply #119 on: March 19, 2003, 01:59:17 PM »
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Quote from: xerxes
there are so many things wrong with what you just said... what exactly is he saving us from??? what bush will be doing is killing thousands of iraqi citizens. open your eyes people


Open YOUR eyes. Saddam is the one who has closed his borders. Saddam has murdered with his own hands and has done it since his early teens....He runs a damned country! You people need to pull your head out of the sand and realize that not everything comes easy. And liberating Iraqi citizens more like it.
It's like, how much more black could this be? And the answer is none. None more black.