Author Topic: not the most popular thread anymore, donnie darko and homos.  (Read 59236 times)

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jmj

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« Reply #120 on: March 12, 2003, 02:10:09 PM »
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Quote from: Xixax
I say that being gay is aberrant behavior. It's not natural. It's not inborn. It's a choice, and it is wrong.


You may not be a gay basher or a homophobe but you sure are ignorant.  If you ACTUALLY had any homosexual friends then any one of them can tell you that it's not a choice.  If you care to challenge yourself you can do some research on this and find out about it.  Homosexuality IS natural and it most certainly is NOT wrong.  If you could look past your southern conservative views then you might find that everyone deserves to live without being told they are wrong.  I grew up in Texas and went to a southern Babtist church where they attempted to engrain everything you're saying into my head.  Lucky for me I grew up and gained true knowledge instead of dogma and I realized there is a big world with all different kinds of people and as long as they aren't hurting or oppressing anyone then it's all good.  You CANNOT tell someone they are wrong for being who they are.  You may not consider yourself a bigot but by embracing the viewpoint that homosexuality is wrong you inherently reinforce the oppression of Gay people.
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polkablues

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« Reply #121 on: March 12, 2003, 02:27:06 PM »
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Mm... A good debate.  Now we're getting somewhere.

Xixax, I like you a lot, but why... why... would anybody choose a lifestyle that would cause them to be ostracized and abused by society?  Why would someone choose a lifestyle that would end up with him tied to a fence and left to die?

That dog just don't hunt.
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jmj

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« Reply #122 on: March 12, 2003, 02:45:09 PM »
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Quote from: polkablues
why... would anybody choose a lifestyle that would cause them to be ostracized and abused by society?  Why would someone choose a lifestyle that would end up with him tied to a fence and left to die? That dog just don't hunt.


Good point Polkablues...

I just wanted to bring up one other point in this discussion.  Consider the case of Albert Einstein.  Obviously he had an above average understanding for mathematics.  Do you think that he just woke up one day and said “Hey, I’m going to be good at math.  I choose math as my talent.”  Obviously not.  For whatever reason he was born with something that made him that way.  The same is true for homosexuality.  None of us know why people are born with the chemistry that makes them who they are.  As a society we have to accept the fact that there is no such thing as normal.  There is no “model human” we can judge people from.  All we can hope for is that everyone can do their own thing without hurting or oppressing each other.
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Xixax

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« Reply #123 on: March 12, 2003, 03:03:28 PM »
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First of all, before we go any further, let's agree that we can disagree about stuff and not take it any further than the discussion here. This board is an open forum, and everyone is welcome, so before we continue, let's say that nothing said here should be taken as insulting (or issued as such). That's not my intention, and from the intelligent responses I've seen to far, it's not yours either. Let's shake on it. This is not a hill on which I wish to die, OK?

Now that that is out of the way, let me comment on this:

Quote
Consider the case of Albert Einstein. Obviously he had an above average understanding for mathematics. Do you think that he just woke up one day and said Hey, Im going to be good at math. I choose math as my talent. Obviously not. For whatever reason he was born with something that made him that way. The same is true for homosexuality.

Aah, but you see - we're not talking about a talent or skill. We're talking about BEHAVIOR. We cannot make ourselves be a mathematics genius. That's a gift we are born with. We can practice math, but we may never quite be as great at it as someone who is born with "the knack for it". However, being a homosexual cannot be compared with being a mathematics genius because one is a "gift" (something you're born with), and one is a behavior - something you DO.

Let's assume for a moment that someone is actually gay by some sort of chemical predisposition. Can they choose to not be gay? Yes. Can that same person who is born gifted in math choose to NOT be gifted in math? No.

By that reasoning, I suppose that I should say that the eating disorder with which I have struggled my whole life is simply inbred, and that since I am born with a disposition to overeat that I have no control over it and therefore I should just give up the fight. That's not true at all. Why am I a lardass? Because I have made bad decisions and given in to a learned behavior that is unhealthy. It's nobody's decision but my own.

Some people are fat, some people are gay, some people smoke, and some people are mathematics geniuses. Only one of the four previously mentioned traits are inborn. The other three are learned behaviors, or are achieved by "giving in" to that which one may find tempting.

And for the record, jmj, I do have gay friends, and they do believe it is an inborn trait. I simply disagree with them and we move on. No harm done. I am hoping that this convesation will have the same result and we can soon get back to argung about how great I think Donnie Darko is.  8)
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snaporaz

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« Reply #124 on: March 12, 2003, 03:27:44 PM »
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xixax...if gay guys have told you themselves that they didn't choose to be gay, how can you argue with that? you think every fag on earth is lying?

by the way: yes, i think gays were born to be gay. and yes, i use fag to insult people. and no, i don't have anything against gays, except for my opinion that man-butt-sex is fucking gross.

Xixax

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« Reply #125 on: March 12, 2003, 03:31:16 PM »
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That was kind of uncalled for, Snap.

In response, I'll refer back to my previous message. I simply say I disagree with them.
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snaporaz

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« Reply #126 on: March 12, 2003, 03:33:09 PM »
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Quote from: Xixax
That was kind of uncalled for, Snap.

In response, I'll refer back to my previous message. I simply say I disagree with them.


what exactly was uncalled for? was a tiny bit of sarcasm somehow offensive?

sorry, i was just getting my two cents in.

i know you disagree with them and i don't want to start fighting like little girls either.

i'm just curious how you have come to the conclusion that gay people choose to be gay, even when gay guys tell you themselves that they didn't choose. if you disagree with them, that must mean you think they're lying. right?

jmj

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« Reply #127 on: March 12, 2003, 03:35:37 PM »
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I’m highly offended that you would lump homosexuality in the same category as overeating and smoking.  That’s just another ignorant statement.  If you study sociology and behavioral science then you know that one could argue EVERYTHING is a reaction to behavioral tendencies.  Your opinion is obviously based on the fact that you can’t think of homosexuality as anything more than SEX.  It is not about that.  If you would think of homosexuality in terms of a relationship you might be able to see where I’m coming from.  Seeking a relationship with someone you are attracted to is completely natural.  The whole subject of sexual behavior is a completely different topic.
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Heihachi Hayashida: Thank you.

snaporaz

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« Reply #128 on: March 12, 2003, 03:43:07 PM »
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Quote from: jmj
Your opinion is obviously based on the fact that you can’t think of homosexuality as anything more than SEX.


whoah whoah whoah. slow down there nigga. i may have some interesting evidence regarding this statement.

i have worked in a porno theater. graveyard shift. i would say that something like 75% of the people that went into the place at that time were homosexuals seeking anonymous sex. no one there is looking for boyfriends. they were only looking for sex. believe me, i have seen the worst of humanity from working in that place - don't ask for specifics. now, you could say that those people were just sick perverts, nothing more, and that it doesn't have anything to do with them being gay. however, the fact is, way more than half of the people that went in there were homosexual males. and that's compared to the very small population of gays out of the entire populace.

i just think that says something about a large section of the gay community.

Xixax

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« Reply #129 on: March 12, 2003, 04:03:22 PM »
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Quote
if you disagree with them, that must mean you think they're lying. right?


No, not at all. I don't think they're lying, I just think they're mistaken. Big difference.


JMJ's avatar with Bjork is strangely appropriate for this thread!
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life_boy

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« Reply #130 on: March 12, 2003, 04:12:22 PM »
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I'm divided on this issue.  I'm not really sure where I stand, I'm still trying to think it through properly.  Natural vs. Choice.  On one hand I say why am I a heterosexual?  I don't remember making a conscious choice to be one.  So, does this make homosexuality natural, not a choice but something that just happens, something that was 'inborn' as it has been discussed earlier?  

On the other hand though, behaviour patterns are not completely choices, but they're not completely natural character traits either.  The people, places and things around us play into how we are who we are.  Let me give an example of how I am thinking.  I don't like to eat macaroni.  I didn't make a conscious choice not to like macaroni, but that doesn't mean I didn't make a choice, even if it was subconsciously.  No one in my family likes macaroni and we never had it for lunch or dinner as a kid so is my not liking macaroni a subconscious choice or somehow engrained in me through years of eating something else?  Would I like macaroni if my sister had liked it?  What if we lived in a different state?  What if my dad worked in a factory rather than a hospital?

Obviously, I'm just asking more questions and not giving answers to any of them.  This is not something I will solve today, if ever.  I doubt this whole thing is as cut-and-dried as being either one or the other.  There is probably a little more to it than that.  So, I haven't solved a thing, just muddied the waters even more for myself.  Oh well, let's get back to talking about movies.

jmj

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« Reply #131 on: March 12, 2003, 04:23:51 PM »
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Quote from: snaporaz
I have worked in a porno theater. graveyard shift. i would say that something like 75% of the people that went into the place at that time were homosexuals seeking anonymous sex. no one there is looking for boyfriends. they were only looking for sex. believe me, i have seen the worst of humanity from working in that place - don't ask for specifics. now, you could say that those people were just sick perverts, nothing more, and that it doesn't have anything to do with them being gay. however, the fact is, way more than half of the people that went in there were homosexual males. and that's compared to the very small population of gays out of the entire populace.


This information was obtained in completely un-scientific manner and can be considered nothing more than an opinion.  Besides that, if you consider the place you were, a smut house that pedals sex, then what else are people coming there looking for.  You can't gage an entire section of the population based on your elementary study at work.   Seriously...I can't tell if you're being a sarcatic jack ass or not.  But this is just plain stupid.
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Pedro

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« Reply #132 on: March 12, 2003, 04:38:54 PM »
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Quote from: snaporaz
Quote from: jmj
Your opinion is obviously based on the fact that you cant think of homosexuality as anything more than SEX.


the fact is, way more than half of the people that went in there were homosexual males. and that's compared to the very small population of gays out of the entire populace.

i just think that says something about a large section of the gay community.


Think of this in another way...you saw say 100 gay people for anonymous sex?  This is out of how many millions of gays in the world? Not all of them are like that I assure you, and just because the majority of people wanting anonymous sex where you were working were gay doesn't mean the majority of people who are gay, want anonymous sex.  And hell, how many straight people do you know who want anonymous sex?  Alot exist.  They're looked at in a lot less hostile way, probably just because they're not gay.  As far as the choose homosexuality thing...I am straight and I never have one day decided..."You know...I think im gonna be in heterosexual relationships"...That's just how it happened...I just felt that that was what I wanted.  It's more of a feeling than a choice.  So I am arguing everything you said could be argued in your post. And because I think it's right.  

You know I still love and respect you right?  This is just where you and I differ...even if you hated my avatar...

Xixax

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« Reply #133 on: March 12, 2003, 04:41:51 PM »
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Add dinner and a movie to a line like that and I'd put out for you, Pedro!
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RegularKarate

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« Reply #134 on: March 12, 2003, 04:49:07 PM »
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Quote from: Xixax

Let's assume for a moment that someone is actually gay by some sort of chemical predisposition. Can they choose to not be gay? Yes. Can that same person who is born gifted in math choose to NOT be gifted in math? No.


Well this whole Einstein comparison is no good, but I think your response is more ridiculous.

I just don't see how someone as intelligent as you seem to be can think that being gay is a choice.  You are or you aren't.

If we were to stick with the math analogy... someone can be gifted in Math and while they can't CHOOSE not to be gifted in Math, they can choose to pretend they don't even like math and pretend to be good at English,even though they're really bad at it and just fucking hate it, but because others say math is wrong, they live a lie for the rest of thier life.

So, the answer is "yes", you can choose whether or not you have sex with members of the opposite sex, but you can't choose whether or not you're GAY.  Just like you can choose whether or not to take Advanced Trig, but you can't choose whether or not you're super gifted in that area.

Let me ask you this... if, for some bizarre reason (accept it for me, please) Men, all of a sudden can get other men pregnant and not women and it's announced that guys should just turn around and fuck other guys for now.  Would you do it?  Don't fucking lie, because I wouldn't.... You know why?  Because I like women.  That's what I am naturally drawn to.  It's not the same for others.

I can accept the fact that we're going to just disagree here, I just want you to accept the fact that I think you are so god damned wrong, it's sad.

Regarding the whole "calling things 'gay'" stuff.  I don't associate the two in a negative way and I don't know that many people (whose oppinions matter to me) that do either.  If, all of a sudden, my gay friends said it bothered them, I would stop out of respect, but I don't use it that often and haven't heard any protests this far.

Now... calling people "fags" is a different matter.  "Fag" was a hateful word that was created to hurt specific people.  I, personally don't use it.

 

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