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cron

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church and state (this needs a thread)
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2004, 12:35:28 PM »
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http://www.crimelibrary.com/borgia/borgiamain.htm
The First Crime Family

 
 

The papal guards forced the ragged prisoners into St. Peter's Square. They were shackled at the wrists and gathered in a close knot near its geographical center. The guards formed a phalanx at the broad entry into the square, preventing escape. The prisoners looked up at the Vatican windows, where, on a small balcony at one of the larger windows, the seventy-year-old Pope Alexander VI, formerly Rodrigo Borgia, stood with his twenty-year-old daughter, Lucrezia Borgia. Both were smiling. A few windows away, dressed completely in black velvet, was Alexander's son, Cesare Borgia. Beside him was a servant, also dressed all in black.

Were they about to hear words of mercy? Some generous dispensation for their crimes, which ranged from the serious to the trivial? Perhaps they were hopeful.

Suddenly, one of the prisoners fell, shot by Cesare. The prisoners scurried throughout the square, aware that someone in one of those windows was firing upon them. With each shot, the servant handed Cesare a new rifle, fully primed, and he fired again. Each shot was followed by a fresh rifle, and another shot. Within a matter of minutes, all of the prisoners were dead.

Alexander waved to his son. "Fine aim, my son," said the Pope. Cesare smiled and waved back, and he and his servant left the window and entered the Vatican apartment. Four men, pulling a cart, began to remove the bodies, tossing them in like limp sacks of grain. Cesare's harvest was taken away, to be thrown into the Tiber.

* * *

The details of this scene have been imagined, but the basic facts of the event are true. Johannes Burchard, the papal master of ceremonies, loyal servant to his master, Alexander VI, recorded the scene in his diary.

* * *

A strange and bewildering family, the Borgias. Eleven cardinals of the Holy Roman Catholic Church. Three popes. A queen of England. A saint. A family with long tentacles, beginning in the Fourteenth Century in Spain, and reaching through the history of Fifteenth and Sixteenth Century Italy, Spain, and France. Greed, murder, incest. And --- strangely --- piety.

Such is the legacy of the Borgia family that established itself in one of Italy's most glorious periods, and that, in many ways, dominated the Renaissance with power and intrigue for fifty years. In a number of ways, it was a heritage whose influence on Church and State was felt for two hundred years.

Of this notorious family, four members in particular are remembered, if only vaguely, as remarkable examples of greed and evil. Two were popes: Calixtus III (Alonso Borgia) and Alexander VI (Rodrigo Borgia). Another, Cesare Borgia, was, for a time, a cardinal, elevated to that position by his acknowledged father, Alexander VI, and later, after leaving holy orders, a murderous and ruthless duke. The fourth member has become a metaphor for feminine evil: Lucrezia Borgia, sister of Cesare.

While other family members make important appearances in this drama of familial power, these four form the nucleus for which the family is remembered. They are handsome, charming, and amoral. Like Mafia dons, they inspired admiration and loyalty. But, most of all, they inspired fear:

I met Cesare yesterday in the house in Trastevere: He was just on his way to the chase dressed in a costume altogether worldly: that is, in silk --- and armed. He had only a little tonsure like a simple priest. I conversed with him for a while as we rode along --- I am on intimate terms with him. He possesses marked genius and a charming personality, bearing himself like a great prince. He is especially lively  and merry and fond of society. [This] archbishop never had any inclination for the priesthood but his benefices bring him in more than 16,000 ducats annually.

--- Andrea Boccaccio, describing Cesare Borgia when he was a priest, just before being elevated to cardinal.

Unlike the mad Caligula, who killed in insane pleasure, or Nero and his predecessors, who killed for political gain, the Borgias killed not only for pleasure and political gain, but for personal wealth. They were, indeed, the first crime family, a family unique to the annals of crime. They were not bound together by blood ritual, but by genes.
context, context, context.

(kelvin)

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« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2004, 02:21:54 PM »
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In Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, bloodshed -- but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love. They had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.    :wink:

cine

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« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2004, 03:44:14 PM »
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Quote from: HALvin
In Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, bloodshed -- but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love. They had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.    :wink:

 :-D

ᾦɐļᵲʊʂ

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« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2004, 04:18:23 PM »
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Quote from: molly
well, it shows improvement of the Church opinion.


Anyone see the pendulum with the Church again?  It's becoming all about money.  Now we dont' have tax collectors, so they can't abuse us that way, they attack us morally.

"They're dying in Africa.  They need your money."  Yep.  All 100% of the money goes to Africa.

And the whole persecution of those who think differently: firebombing planned parenthood?

These are some folks who can't stand the fact there are different people in the world.

This is a messy arguement, and I know someone might comment on how I should know my shit first, but it's I just want to get it off my chest...
"As a matter of fact I only work with the feeling of something magical, something seemingly significant. And to keep it magical I don't want to know the story involved, I just want the hypnotic effect of it somehow seeming significant without knowing why." - Len Lye

Pas

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« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2004, 04:50:00 PM »
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Quote from: HALvin
In Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, bloodshed -- but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love. They had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.    :wink:


I am absolutely sure I read the exact same thing before ... is this some strange feeling of déjà vu ?!

(kelvin)

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« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2004, 04:51:54 PM »
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Quote from: Pas Rapport
Quote from: HALvin
In Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, bloodshed -- but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love. They had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.    :wink:


I am absolutely sure I read the exact same thing before ... is this some strange feeling of déjà vu ?!


erm...remember The Third Man?

Pas

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« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2004, 06:49:49 PM »
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Ahhhhhh yesssss ! ermmm...sorry bout that

Chest Rockwell

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« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2004, 06:14:55 PM »
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We love pre-marital sex!

Jeremy Blackman

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« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2004, 07:48:39 PM »
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For any one who thinks the country was founded on Christianity, here's a small collection of quotes.


"As the government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, --as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquillity of Messelmen, --and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mohammedan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever interupt the harmony existing between the two countries"
--Treaty of Tripoli in 1797, Article XI, written by Joel Barlow (USA diplomat) and Hassan Bashaw (of Algers), late during George Washington's second term and later ratified by President John Adams. Original and copies preserved in the national Archives in Washington, DC. under Treaty series no.358. Official Senate treaty found in the American State Papers, Foreign Relations, II p. 18-19. "Treaties and Other International Acts of the United States of America" vol.2, edited by Hunter Miller, US. Government printing office, 1931, p.349-385.


"The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ."
--Thomas Jefferson


"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."
--Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814


"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile  to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting  his abuses in return for protection to his own."
--Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17,  1814


"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."
--Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt in 1813, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson Memorial_Edition, edited by Lipscomb and Bergh, 14:21


"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical."
--Thomas Jefferson, Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779, The Papers of Thomas Jefferson , edited by Julron P. Boyd, 1950, 2:545


"I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises."
--Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Samuel Miller, 1808


"[When] the [Virginia] bill for establishing religious freedom, the principles of which had, to a certain degree, been enacted before, I had drawn in all the latitude of reason & right. It still met with opposition; but, with some mutilations in the preamble, it was finally passed; and a singular proposition proved that its protections of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantel of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohametan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination."
--Thomas Jefferson, from his autobiography, 1820


"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
--Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia ,  Jefferson the President: First Term 1801-1805.


Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."
--Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association on Jan. 1, 1802


"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one."
--Benjamin Franklin


"Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and all of which facilitates the execution of mischievous projects. Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise, every expanded project."
--James Madison


"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."
--James Madison in a letter to Edward Livingston in 1822


"It may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the Civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on unessential points. The tendency to unsurpastion on one side or the other, or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them, will best be guarded against by an entire abstinence of the Government from interference in any way whatsoever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order."
--James Madison, "James Madison on Religious Liberty", edited by Robert S. Alley, ISBN pp 237-238


"I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book [the Bible]."
 --Thomas Paine


"Here it is that the religion of Deism is superior to the Christian Religion. It is free from all those invented and torturing articles that shock our reason or injure our humanity, and with which the Christian religion abounds. Its creed is pure, and sublimely simple. It believes in God, and there it rests."
--Thomas Paine
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Slick Shoes

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church and state (this needs a thread)
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2004, 10:08:02 AM »
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Everybody knows you can't get AIDS if you love the person... or you do it underwater.

Jeremy Blackman

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« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2004, 02:52:21 PM »
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House bill blocks courts from taking "under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Federal courts would be barred from striking the words "under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance to the American flag under a bill passed on Thursday by a House of Representatives split largely along party lines.

The Republicans in control of the chamber rejected Democratic claims that the measure was an unconstitutional bid to limit the power of the federal judiciary and an election-year ploy to rally social conservatives. It passed on a vote of 247-173.

Spurred by a celebrated but ultimately failed court challenge to the pledge in California, the bill is expected to die in the U.S. Senate without a vote as the U.S. Congress draws to an end this year. But that did not dampen Republican enthusiasm.

"We have heard a lot of legalese here ... (but) this is not very complicated," said Rep. Todd Akin, a Missouri Republican and the bill's chief sponsor.

"The simple question is whether school kids are going to be able to say the pledge the way we have done it for the past 50 years," Akin said.

Congress added the phrase "under God" to the pledge in 1954 as a symbolic way to distinguish the United States from the Soviet Union, its officially atheist Cold War foe.

Democrats argued that the House bill, the "Pledge Protection Act," would violate the Constitution's separation of powers between the government's judicial and legislative branches.

"I love the pledge," said House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, a California Democrat. But "this bill ... violates the spirit of pledge by professing a lack of faith in the constitutional framework."

The bill would essentially let only state courts hear constitutional challenges to the pledge in order to prevent what backers denounced as possible meddling by "activist" or "rogue" federal judges.

Earlier this year, the U.S. Supreme Court overturned a ruling by a federal appeals court in California that reciting "under God" in the pledge amounted to a violation of church-state separation.

The high court avoided the constitutional question, however, by finding that the plaintiff lacked legal standing to bring the case. It left open the possibility of future challenges.
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SHAFTR

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« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2004, 06:39:04 PM »
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yeah, I was surprised & delighted to find out that our country was built on diesm, not christianity.
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Jeremy Blackman

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« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2004, 07:27:15 PM »
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Quote from: SHAFTR
yeah, I was surprised & delighted to find out that our country was built on diesm, not christianity.

The point is that it wasn't built on any religion at all, that it was built specifically seperate from religion, that the philosophies and tenents of the country don't follow (and never should) any religious doctrine.
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Weird. Oh

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« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2004, 07:44:01 PM »
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Quote from: Jeremy Blackman
For any one who thinks the country was founded on Christianity, here's a small collection of quotes.


Just because you quote a few people's thoughts on religion doesn't mean that the country wasn't a christian nation. Nonetheless, if anyone follows history they know that most of the founding fathers were in fact deists.

In general, the separation of church and state is a myth really. There is absolutely no mention in the constitution. The reason it has gotten the clout that is has now is due to judicial review redefining what counts as the establishment of religion. Many people think there should be absolutely no mention of religion in government. Like this whole cleansing of the ten commandments and pledge of allegiance. It really doesn't establish a single religion. Especially, the pledge. The only reference you can draw is to a monotheistic religion.

I've always hated the Catholic church and their policies. I think it's just total ignorance to claim that just because it's not 100% don't use it at all. And you can look at the past century and see that they have aided and abetted atrocities. It is well documented they knew about the holocaust and did nothing about.
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Jeremy Blackman

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« Reply #29 on: September 23, 2004, 10:24:26 PM »
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Quote from: Reformed Weirdo
Just because you quote a few people's thoughts on religion doesn't mean that the country wasn't a christian nation.

"A few people"? These were the people who established this country, who wrote the constitution. Whose opinion matters more when we're talking about what this country was founded on?

And of course the nation was mostly Christian at the time, which is why they probably felt obligated to prevent its official dominance.

Quote from: Reformed Weirdo
In general, the separation of church and state is a myth really. There is absolutely no mention in the constitution.

Yeah, well, what about the first amendment of the constitution, which clearly states that "congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"?

Quote from: Reformed Weirdo
Like this whole cleansing of the ten commandments and pledge of allegiance. It really doesn't establish a single religion.

Most people agree that The Ten Commandments are Judeo-Christian dogma. What else do you suggest they are?

Also, what's this confusion about "establishing a religion" vs "an establishment of religion"? Isn't it perfectly clear that Jefferson was talking about "an establishment" as in "an organization"? Especially when he talks about this "wall of separation between church and state"... How you can draw any ambiguities from the crystal clear words of Jefferson and the other founding fathers boggles my mind.

Quote from: Reformed Weirdo
Especially, the pledge. The only reference you can draw is to a monotheistic religion.

The "under God" part was a juvenile cold war insertion to define us against the godless commies. And isn't it clear that Jefferson and others wanted to protect the rights of polytheism and atheism? Just because they were theist doesn't mean they assumed every one else wanted to be. Their words, in fact, say exactly the opposite.
"Hunger is the purest sin"