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S.R.

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church and state (this needs a thread)
« on: January 12, 2004, 10:44:41 PM »
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Vatican: condoms don't stop Aids

Steve Bradshaw
Thursday October 9, 2003
The Guardian

The Catholic Church is telling people in countries stricken by Aids not to use condoms because they have tiny holes in them through which HIV can pass - potentially exposing thousands of people to risk.
The church is making the claims across four continents despite a widespread scientific consensus that condoms are impermeable to HIV.

A senior Vatican spokesman backs the claims about permeable condoms, despite assurances by the World Health Organisation that they are untrue.

The church's claims are revealed in a BBC1 Panorama programme, Sex and the Holy City, to be broadcast on Sunday. The president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family, Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, told the programme: "The Aids virus is roughly 450 times smaller than the spermatozoon. The spermatozoon can easily pass through the 'net' that is formed by the condom.

"These margins of uncertainty... should represent an obligation on the part of the health ministries and all these campaigns to act in the same way as they do with regard to cigarettes, which they state to be a danger."

The WHO has condemned the Vatican's views, saying: "These incorrect statements about condoms and HIV are dangerous when we are facing a global pandemic which has already killed more than 20 million people, and currently affects at least 42 million."

The organisation says "consistent and correct" condom use reduces the risk of HIV infection by 90%. There may be breakage or slippage of condoms - but not, the WHO says, holes through which the virus can pass .

Scientific research by a group including the US National Institutes of Health and the WHO found "intact condoms... are essentially impermeable to particles the size of STD pathogens including the smallest sexually transmitted virus... condoms provide a highly effective barrier to transmission of particles of similar size to those of the smallest STD viruses".

The Vatican's Cardinal Trujillo said: "They are wrong about that... this is an easily recognisable fact."

The church opposes any kind of contraception because it claims it breaks the link between sex and procreation - a position Pope John Paul II has fought to defend.

In Kenya - where an estimated 20% of people have HIV - the church condemns condoms for promoting promiscuity and repeats the claim about permeability. The archbishop of Nairobi, Raphael Ndingi Nzeki, said: "Aids... has grown so fast because of the availability of condoms."

Sex and the Holy City includes a Catholic nun advising her HIV-infected choirmaster against using condoms with his wife because "the virus can pass through".

In Lwak, near Lake Victoria, the director of an Aids testing centre says he cannot distribute condoms because of church opposition. Gordon Wambi told the programme: "Some priests have even been saying that condoms are laced with HIV/Aids."

Panorama found the claims about permeable condoms repeated by Catholics as far apart as Asia and Latin America.

· Steve Bradshaw is a correspondent with Panorama. Sex and the Holy City will be broadcast on BBC1 at 10.15pm on Sunday.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/aids/story/0,7369,1059068,00.html


I hope they are wrong. Or else I am in trouble.
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Pubrick

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church and state (this needs a thread)
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2004, 10:52:29 PM »
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so, they're saying, since sum very small percentage of man juice might go through, u might as well not use em at all?

that sounds like the crazy talk of sumone who's never done it. totally stupid.
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ono

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church and state (this needs a thread)
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2004, 10:55:22 PM »
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This is so stupid.

"Don't use a condom because they could have holes that allow AIDS to pass through?"  Um, hello.  If you don't use a condom, there is no barrier, so you're even worse off.

Seriously, though, I'm no condom maven.  Hate 'em just as much as the next guy.  In a monogamous relationship, you and your partner should be able to find something better than a condom for birth control (depo provera = great; hell, if they made a shot for a guy, I'd take it), and you should've taken care of testing for diseases before sleeping together.  As for people who aren't monogamous, there's no reason not to use a condom.  It just sucks for them that they have to (er, "should").

This all seems to be common sense to me.  Struggling, and failing, to see why it's not for other people.
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Jeremy Blackman

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Re: This needs a thread.
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2004, 11:12:03 PM »
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Quote from: Stefen
A senior Vatican spokesman backs the claims about permeable condoms, despite assurances by the World Health Organisation that they are untrue.

The next thing they're going to claim is that condoms trap Jesus.
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godardian

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Re: This needs a thread.
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2004, 11:16:45 PM »
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Quote from: Jeremy Blackman
Quote from: Stefen
A senior Vatican spokesman backs the claims about permeable condoms, despite assurances by the World Health Organisation that they are untrue.

The next thing they're going to claim is that condoms trap Jesus.


Or at least that using a rubber traps the millions of babies that they believe live in sperm, "spilling life to the ground" when you remove the damn thing.  :roll:

To be fair, most Catholics aren't nearly as backward/ignorant as their leaders. Those Vatican people are like George W. Bush to American citizens: "Yeah, he's technically our 'leader,' but... good lord, he makes us look terrible!!"
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""Money doesn't come into it. It never has. I do what I do because it's all that I am." - Morrissey

"Lacan stressed more and more in his work the power and organizing principle of the symbolic, understood as the networks, social, cultural, and linguistic, into which a child is born. These precede the birth of a child, which is why Lacan can say that language is there from before the actual moment of birth. It is there in the social structures which are at play in the family and, of course, in the ideals, goals, and histories of the parents. This world of language can hardly be grasped by the newborn and yet it will act on the whole of the child's existence."

Stay informed on protecting your freedom of speech and civil rights.

Jeremy Blackman

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church and state (this needs a thread)
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2004, 11:19:52 PM »
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I'm having a Monty Python's The Meaning of Life flashback.
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Pubrick

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church and state (this needs a thread)
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2004, 12:40:20 AM »
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Quote from: Jeremy Blackman
I'm having a Monty Python's The Meaning of Life flashback.


DAD:
There are Jews in the world.
There are Buddhists.
There are Hindus and Mormons, and then
There are those that follow Mohammed, but
I've never been one of them.
I'm a Roman Catholic,
And have been since before I was born,
And the one thing they say about Catholics is:
They'll take you as soon as you're warm.
You don't have to be a six-footer.
You don't have to have a great brain.
You don't have to have any clothes on. You're
A Catholic the moment Dad came,
Because
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.
CHILDREN:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.
GIRL:
Let the heathen spill theirs
On the dusty ground.
God shall make them pay for
Each sperm that can't be found.
CHILDREN:

Every sperm is wanted.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.
MUM:

Hindu, Taoist, Mormon,
Spill theirs just anywhere,
But God loves those who treat their
Semen with more care.
MEN:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
WOMEN:

If a sperm is wasted,...
CHILDREN:
...God get quite irate.
PRIEST:
Every sperm is sacred.
BRIDE and GROOM:

Every sperm is good.
NANNIES:
Every sperm is needed...
CARDINALS:

...In your neighbourhood!
CHILDREN:

Every sperm is useful.
Every sperm is fine.
FUNERAL CORTEGE:
God needs everybody's.
MOURNER #1:
Mine!
MOURNER #2:
And mine!
CORPSE:
And mine!
NUN:
Let the Pagan spill theirs
O'er mountain, hill, and plain.
HOLY STATUES:

God shall strike them down for
Each sperm that's spilt in vain.
EVERYONE:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite iraaaaaate!



seriously what a great song.
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godardian

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church and state (this needs a thread)
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2004, 01:14:00 AM »
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It is. Seriously.
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""Money doesn't come into it. It never has. I do what I do because it's all that I am." - Morrissey

"Lacan stressed more and more in his work the power and organizing principle of the symbolic, understood as the networks, social, cultural, and linguistic, into which a child is born. These precede the birth of a child, which is why Lacan can say that language is there from before the actual moment of birth. It is there in the social structures which are at play in the family and, of course, in the ideals, goals, and histories of the parents. This world of language can hardly be grasped by the newborn and yet it will act on the whole of the child's existence."

Stay informed on protecting your freedom of speech and civil rights.

cine

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church and state (this needs a thread)
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2004, 01:20:37 AM »
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I wish there was a screenshot of the girl who sings:
Let the heathen spill theirs
On the dusty ground.
God shall make them pay for
Each sperm that can't be found.

That part always makes me laugh the hardest.
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ᾦɐļᵲʊʂ

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church and state (this needs a thread)
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2004, 07:07:17 AM »
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Catholics will be the end of the world.
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cron

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« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2004, 07:10:19 AM »
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Quote from: Walrus, KooKookajoob
Catholics will be the end of the world.


i beg to differ, at least they're not killing people.
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context, context, context.

(kelvin)

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church and state (this needs a thread)
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2004, 08:48:47 AM »
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The catholic church is losing its community in a threatening and massive way in Europe. Churches are empty, there are hardly any young priests that might assure the continuity of the institution. So it has to concentrate on pre-industrialized countries, where religion plays an important part in everyday life. A religion bases its authority and legitimacy mostly on the masses and, in surplus, the catholic doctrine advises men to be fertile in order to worship God.

So there is a political dimension in this statement. Scientifical proof or morality (in the common sense) has nothing to do with religion.

The problem is that the governmental authorities of some developing countries contribute to these false beliefs. The south african minister of health advised the population that  a vegetable soup (sic!) will cure Aids, it is said that the medication that can prevent the HI virus from spreading for a few years -or even decades if taken on a regular basis!- are actually responsible for the symptoms of Aids. Behind this criminal policy hides the fact that Western (mostly american) pharmaceutical companies don't want Third world companies to develop the medication they developed (for economical reasons). The result is that in some countries the HIV infections are up to 30-40% of the population.

Whereas post-industrial countries are those which have the best medication, the best research facilities, but which are highly concerned about Aids (or Sars), deseases which don't affect them massively - malaria and diarrhea-related deseases being the deadliest in the world - other countries are virtually about to collapse under this new plague.

I think the main reason why Aids is so dramatized in our societies (and the African problem is certainly not the reason) is because it is a deadly desease that can be transmitted through sex. The old christian (catholic!)pattern of a combination between sexuality and evil still leaves its prints.
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molly

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« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2004, 12:25:00 PM »
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Quote from: chuckhimselfo
Quote from: Walrus, KooKookajoob
Catholics will be the end of the world.


i beg to differ, at least they're not killing people.


they did. A few centuries ago. Then they stopped and in the end of the 20th century they said that was bad. And yes, they said that the earth is round.
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cron

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« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2004, 12:27:09 PM »
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Quote from: molly
Quote from: chuckhimselfo
Quote from: Walrus, KooKookajoob
Catholics will be the end of the world.


i beg to differ, at least they're not killing people.


they did. A few centuries ago. Then they stopped and in the end of the 20th century they said that was bad. And yes, they said that the earth is round.

 i was sure someone was going to bring that up. that's why i wrote it in present.
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context, context, context.

molly

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« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2004, 12:32:49 PM »
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well, it shows improvement of the Church opinion.

but seriously, they should be punished for saying what thay say about condoms in Africa. They don't say that here. It makes me sick  that people think that a person is holy and always right if he/she doesn't have sex.
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