Author Topic: Whoops! - Marty's Oscar campaign  (Read 18532 times)

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ębrad

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« Reply #60 on: July 04, 2003, 01:37:05 AM »
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arnsillapussy and munticock- whatever- u guys r boring me to tears.

booooooooooooooooring.

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Sleuth

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« Reply #61 on: July 04, 2003, 01:49:06 AM »
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I'm so confused
I like to hug dogs

phil marlowe

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« Reply #62 on: July 04, 2003, 07:20:03 AM »
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i have to admit that i enjoyed the tenderized meat part.

mutinyco

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« Reply #63 on: July 04, 2003, 09:37:42 AM »
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I'm pretty sick of this too. But just to clarify, he ALWAYS gives Marty high grades. It could be 2 hours of a guy on the toilet and it'd get at least 3 stars. The point is, he said it wasn't one of his better films. He also gave it a grade of B in Entertainment Weekly. Then, at the end of the year he made a point of clarifying his position (better than most films, not one of his best) because he was getting a lot of hate mail -- probably shit from Weinstein too.

The film has a 77% rating -- that's equivalent to a C+. THAT is not one of the best pictures of the year. 3 films that didn't get nominated are Minority Report at 92%, Far From Heaven at 91%, and Catch Me if You Can at 97%. At least 2 of those films will far outlive Gangs. Gangs is not a masterpiece. Miramax spent $50-million to promote it as one.

My MovieNavigator partner wrote a pretty sharp review:

http://www.movienavigator.org/gangsofny.htm
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SoNowThen

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« Reply #64 on: July 04, 2003, 10:36:58 AM »
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Since when does the Rotten Tomatoes rating become the final word on how good a movie is? Are you actually saying that unless over 80% of the film critics love a movie when it comes out, it can't possibly be good???

Come now, saying you don't like something is acceptable. "Proving" you're "right" by giving it an average grade from film reviews is ludicrous.
Those who say that the totalitarian state of the Soviet Union was not "real" Marxism also cannot admit that one simple feature of Marxism makes totalitarianism necessary:  the rejection of civil society. Since civil society is the sphere of private activity, its abolition and replacement by political society means that nothing private remains. That is already the essence of totalitarianism; and the moralistic practice of the trendy Left, which regards everything as political and sometimes reveals its hostility to free speech, does nothing to contradict this implication.

When those who hated capital and consumption (and Jews) in the 20th century murdered some hundred million people, and the poster children for the struggle against international capitalism and America are now fanatical Islamic terrorists, this puts recent enthusiasts in an awkward position. Most of them are too dense and shameless to appreciate it, and far too many are taken in by the moralistic and paternalistic rhetoric of the Left.

mutinyco

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« Reply #65 on: July 04, 2003, 11:30:50 AM »
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It also had a Cinemascore of B-, I believe. That takes care of the audience, too. A lackluster grade from both sides. My point is that the film was not well-received. And that it was the combined effort of a few zealous film critics and Miramax's money that helped to create a different impression.

Even Eyes Wide Shut, the most critically devisive film in years, aside from A.I., got a Tomato score of 81%/82%.

It's my opinion that to raise of film of this mediocrity to greatness would be to lower the standards of film greatness.
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SoNowThen

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« Reply #66 on: July 04, 2003, 11:35:23 AM »
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Well, if we're talking true "greatness", then to be honest, I haven't seen anything since 1999. Maybe City Of God and All The Real Girls come close for me, but even though I love Gangs (fav film of 2002), I really wouldn't elevate anything from that year to the Great category. Well, if I had a top three latest, it would be these mentioned. But I'm only calling them Very Good for the time being.
Those who say that the totalitarian state of the Soviet Union was not "real" Marxism also cannot admit that one simple feature of Marxism makes totalitarianism necessary:  the rejection of civil society. Since civil society is the sphere of private activity, its abolition and replacement by political society means that nothing private remains. That is already the essence of totalitarianism; and the moralistic practice of the trendy Left, which regards everything as political and sometimes reveals its hostility to free speech, does nothing to contradict this implication.

When those who hated capital and consumption (and Jews) in the 20th century murdered some hundred million people, and the poster children for the struggle against international capitalism and America are now fanatical Islamic terrorists, this puts recent enthusiasts in an awkward position. Most of them are too dense and shameless to appreciate it, and far too many are taken in by the moralistic and paternalistic rhetoric of the Left.

Pubrick

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« Reply #67 on: July 04, 2003, 11:49:43 AM »
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this could well be the most boring argument ever.

jesus u don't even hav avatars to keep me interested.
under the paving stones.

Something Spanish

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« Reply #68 on: July 04, 2003, 12:50:34 PM »
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I dug the debate. It's losing momentum, though.

I think Scorsese has made his share of great films. And I agree with mutinyco that everything after Goodfellas (excluding Cape Fear) has ranged from sub-par to pure drivel. Gangs of New York is the epitome of that pure drivel. There is stuff I like about it (it's scope and lush sets...) but as a whole, the film is riddled with problems. (!) I just thought of a good, albeit corny, analogy for the overrated flick. The fuckin' movie is like Humpty Dumpty. Ok. It's been edited/spliced into a thousand pieces, and all the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Gangs of New York back together again.

But, no. Scorsese had range. He used to have balls. He used to be inventive. He tried to have balls and be inventive with Bringing Out the Dead, but not only does the flick reiterate the same topics the filmmaker conveyed in earlier films, BOTD does this while suffering from castration. I really liked Who's That Knocking on My Door. Boxcar Bertha. Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore. Taxi Driver (which, in my opinion, had its share of problems, despite the majority's consesnus that it is a masterpiece). And those were merely the "Good" ones. He's made some greats...

Greats: And I gotta curse because I really love these flicks. So I'm gonna say they're fuckin' great. Like...can't find the word. Ok. Mean Streets. Raging Bull. King of Comedy (with a bullet). After Hours. The Last Waltz. The Last Temptation of Christ. His segment in New York Stories. Goodfellas. Cape Fear.

See, I love Scorsese. And I'll probably see every movie he ever makes at least twice. I did not like Kundun. I HATED Casino. Have reservations about New York, New York and The Age of Innocence. Like some parts in Bringing Out the Dead and Gangs of New York, but as wholes, they're messier than sloppy joes.

There are my two cents about the man. I may love most of his films, but I am not brainwashed to declare anything the director makes an unadulterated masterpiece.

(And P.S. - If you liked GONY, obviously, that is fine and all the power to you. But I'm gonna be honest, it boggles my mind how people do not see it's many flaws and open gashes. GONY has to be one of the only films where I don't understand this. Sorry.)

SoNowThen

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« Reply #69 on: July 04, 2003, 01:30:51 PM »
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Quote from: Shaun Digi
I dug the debate. It's losing momentum, though.

I think Scorsese has made his share of great films. And I agree with mutinyco that everything after Goodfellas (excluding Cape Fear) has ranged from sub-par to pure drivel. Gangs of New York is the epitome of that pure drivel. There is stuff I like about it (it's scope and lush sets...) but as a whole, the film is riddled with problems. (!) I just thought of a good, albeit corny, analogy for the overrated flick. The fuckin' movie is like Humpty Dumpty. Ok. It's been edited/spliced into a thousand pieces, and all the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Gangs of New York back together again.

But, no. Scorsese had range. He used to have balls. He used to be inventive. He tried to have balls and be inventive with Bringing Out the Dead, but not only does the flick reiterate the same topics the filmmaker conveyed in earlier films, BOTD does this while suffering from castration. I really liked Who's That Knocking on My Door. Boxcar Bertha. Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore. Taxi Driver (which, in my opinion, had its share of problems, despite the majority's consesnus that it is a masterpiece). And those were merely the "Good" ones. He's made some greats...

Greats: And I gotta curse because I really love these flicks. So I'm gonna say they're fuckin' great. Like...can't find the word. Ok. Mean Streets. Raging Bull. King of Comedy (with a bullet). After Hours. The Last Waltz. The Last Temptation of Christ. His segment in New York Stories. Goodfellas. Cape Fear.

See, I love Scorsese. And I'll probably see every movie he ever makes at least twice. I did not like Kundun. I HATED Casino. Have reservations about New York, New York and The Age of Innocence. Like some parts in Bringing Out the Dead and Gangs of New York, but as wholes, they're messier than sloppy joes.

There are my two cents about the man. I may love most of his films, but I am not brainwashed to declare anything the director makes an unadulterated masterpiece.

(And P.S. - If you liked GONY, obviously, that is fine and all the power to you. But I'm gonna be honest, it boggles my mind how people do not see it's many flaws and open gashes. GONY has to be one of the only films where I don't understand this. Sorry.)


Well, everyone already knows how I feel, but I'll just give my last two cents. As to Gangs, the only part I feel that doesn't work is the Cameron tries to bite/kiss Leo scene. Which obviously had to be included to appeal to a broader audience and somewhat justify the massive budget. But the rest (the stuff you guys all hate) I think is wonderful. I like sprawling plotlines, I liked all the Boss Tweed political stuff, the immigrants, and the draft stuff. I like how it's kept to the side (but still there... I just rewatched this and all these threads are there from the beginning), until it absolutely has to spill over. I like characters coming and going. I didn't find it sloppy at all. I thought its construction and style suited the story. I do not look at it as a hero vs villain simple revenge story. Revenge is certainly tied in there, but it just becomes part of the ambiance, all contributing to the broad picture of "violence" on the whole. You can't really feel bad for the rioters (even though they get mowed down by the militia/police/army), because two minutes before they were using the hysteria to beat on colored people. You can't really feel for Amsterdam, because he just willingly continues the violence, and deep down really enjoys it. At least Bill, as despicable as he is, is honest. I love all that shit. I don't really want to "root" for anyone when I see a movie like this. I just wanna sit back and drink it in. I have no agenda in liking this film. I went in expecting to not like it. I was pleasantly surprised, and it has held up over repeat viewings for me.

As to Bringing Out The Dead, to say it's similar to Taxi Driver (as has been said before) is wrong. The only similarity is it's mostly late night driving through NY. That's it. Really it's more of the flip side of Taxi Driver. Travis finds no solitude in the love of a woman. He cannot, like Frank, go out and actually do good. Frank honestly wants to help people. Travis is insane, and thinks he is helping people, but is really just being selfish and destructive. Again, probably because BOTD has a positive ending, as opposed to the Taxi Driver ironic one, it's easier for people to get down on. Yet it's just a wonderful little ride of a film. It's more dark comedy with hints of romance. Quite different from Taxi Driver.

I'm not saying anybody's dead wrong. I'm just shedding light on what goes on through my own head. Hope that clarifies my position.
Those who say that the totalitarian state of the Soviet Union was not "real" Marxism also cannot admit that one simple feature of Marxism makes totalitarianism necessary:  the rejection of civil society. Since civil society is the sphere of private activity, its abolition and replacement by political society means that nothing private remains. That is already the essence of totalitarianism; and the moralistic practice of the trendy Left, which regards everything as political and sometimes reveals its hostility to free speech, does nothing to contradict this implication.

When those who hated capital and consumption (and Jews) in the 20th century murdered some hundred million people, and the poster children for the struggle against international capitalism and America are now fanatical Islamic terrorists, this puts recent enthusiasts in an awkward position. Most of them are too dense and shameless to appreciate it, and far too many are taken in by the moralistic and paternalistic rhetoric of the Left.

mutinyco

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« Reply #70 on: July 04, 2003, 01:45:43 PM »
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I think Marty is a great double-hitter. Not a home run hitter. I think he occasionally shows flashes of brilliance, but his films as a whole lack cohesion. I think he's more memorable for his parts than his wholes.
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Arnzilla

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« Reply #71 on: July 04, 2003, 08:06:01 PM »
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Quote from: mutinyco
I think Marty is a great double-hitter. Not a home run hitter. I think he occasionally shows flashes of brilliance, but his films as a whole lack cohesion. I think he's more memorable for his parts than his wholes.
Then tell other filmmakers to stop stealing his parts and filling his wholes.

GONY appeared on more top ten lists than the other best pic nominees which had their directors concurrently nominated: Chicago, The Hours, and The Pianist. However, those films got a higher RT rating than GONY. So don't you get it? Scorsese has a higher standard of excellence when competing against himself.

mutinyco

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« Reply #72 on: July 04, 2003, 08:21:34 PM »
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Keep deluding yourself...
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Arnzilla

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« Reply #73 on: July 04, 2003, 08:25:52 PM »
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Quote from: mutinyco
Keep deluding yourself...
I've been stating facts, you've been stating opinions. I've yet to give my opinion on any Scorsese film in this forum.

mutinyco

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« Reply #74 on: July 05, 2003, 06:45:47 AM »
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Excuse me, you haven't been offering facts. On my part, I would suggest you retrace things. You'll find GONY's Cinemascore, Tomato score, quotes from Ebert (and his yo-yo approach), links to several reviews/articles, the Robert Wise flap which has now forced the Academy to change its rules, etc. All I've been offering are facts surrounding this film.

It's one thing if your point is that you acknowledge the faults Shaun Digi or I have pointed out -- but that they don't matter for you. But it's quite another to suggest they're not there.

As somebody who I would say is fairly plugged into the industry, I don't know anybody who liked Gangs. But I know lots of people who wanted to see Scorsese win. There's a big difference.
"I believe in this, and it's been tested by research: he who fucks nuns will later join the church."

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