The Leader of the Homeland

[thooor]

I like this conversation.  It is educating

Please explain why?

[Sleuth]

Because I am getting a better idea of Capitalism and Socialism through their discussion

[thooor]

Because I am getting a better idea of Capitalism and Socialism through their discussion

Oh....This thread just confirmed my opinion about capitalists!

If you need information about socialism and capitalism just go here:

http://www.importanceofphilosophy.com/Politics_Capitalism.html

http://www.worldsocialism.org/

[Duck Sauce]

http://www.capitalism.org/         is good too

if you want to learn more, search through the past posts, we have had this argument about 14 times....

[(kelvin)]

Duck Sauce, I don't want to offend you, but that's about the sickest post I ever read on this board. Yes, you do have the right "not to give a shit" about other people. But a society that produces human beings with opinions like yours is doomed to decline. I hope so, at least. Good luck with your attitude.

I never said I dont give a shit about people, I said I should have the right not to. Let me pick who I care about and who I want to help with what I earned, don't force me to be responsible for others. Everything else you said is just an opinion, and Ill overlook it this time. I dont need somebody on a film message board critiquing my attitude, I think its perfect.

With that mentality, only the rich get richer, and the poor only poorer. And when 0.1% of the population will control the 99.9% other, you'll regret what you did just like the French Noble back in the Revolution. Though I really don't hope it comes to that.

With that mentality, the people who earn it get richer and the people who dont, dont. I believe in capitalism, if the rich are getting richer that is because they are doing something right, if the poor want to get rich then they also have the opportunity to do so. Its called competition, if they can offer a better product or service then they can have a share of that money. And in that EXTREME case where .1% of the population has all the money, I am going to try to be that .1%, but it will never happen.

First of all, you do have the right not to care about other people. Be grateful for that. But you do not only have rights, but also responsibilities. I think it is an important part of the "American Dream" that everyone gets what he or she deserves. Say, what do you have to do in order to "deserve" poverty?
You believe in capitalism? What is it that makes it so attractive? Its apparent logic? Its simplistic structure? Its infinite possibilities for everyone? In my opinion, and I hope you will overlook it a second time (ignorance is strength), capitalism is the snake that will eventually bite its own tail. In order to sustain this system, you have to produce more and more, to sell more and more, to buy more and more, to constantly earn and spend greater amounts of money, perpetually, for a stagnation will lead to a total collapse of the system. Because, if you don't spend your money, you won't be able to earn any more of it, for no one can pay you a salary. The problem is that your ressources are not infinite, so, sooner or later, you won't be able to fulfill the market's needs concerning production and trade: this system will fail eventually. And then?

[SoNowThen]

So basically, you want full socialism?

Yes.

why?

Because rich people deserve to live just as poor people. Because education should be open to everyone and the quality education not only to rich people. Because poeple should be born the most equal possible.

If you disagree with any of that, I pity you. I am not a communist, but a socialist. Quebec would work just fine if it had kept the ideas of the '70s, but we backed out. At least we tried.

I think if Dennis Kucinich could pass, the world would be a better place for everyone.

If a rich person worked hard to achieve his status, and a poor person worked shitty jobs because he was too busy getting high instead of being ambitious, then NO these people do not deserve to live the same. WHy can't people just admit that sometimes some wealthy folks actually deserve their money? What's wrong with being wealthy? Being an asshole and shitting on people and using lies and deception to get money is of course wrong. But being a lazy ass welfare bum is also fucked up. Now, let's really look around us.... is anyone born equal? Of course not. Someone is naturally stronger, someone else has a photographic memory, someone else is better looking. No one on earth is equal. Why strive for this utopian ideal?

If I lived in USA, I would vote for Bush. Don't hate me because I'm beautiful.

[Duck Sauce]

First of all, you do have the right not to care about other people. Be grateful for that. But you do not only have rights, but also responsibilities. I think it is an important part of the "American Dream" that everyone gets what he or she deserves. Say, what do you have to do in order to "deserve" poverty?

I think the American Dream is doing the best for yourself and whoever you chose to help and not being forced to do something against your will. What responsibilities do I have for other and why? If you refuse to work and expect other people to do things for you, you may not deserve to be poor, but just not deserve to be rich. But if you refuse to work and live off others, Id say that you deserve to be poor, you havent earned anything

You believe in capitalism? What is it that makes it so attractive? Its apparent logic? Its simplistic structure? Its infinite possibilities for everyone? In my opinion, and I hope you will overlook it a second time (ignorance is strength), capitalism is the snake that will eventually bite its own tail. In order to sustain this system, you have to produce more and more, to sell more and more, to buy more and more, to constantly earn and spend greater amounts of money, perpetually, for a stagnation will lead to a total collapse of the system.

What attracts me to capitalism is that you get what you earn and dont have to share it with others if you dont want to. It provides incentive for advancement and allows people to live as individuals. Say I like buying more and more? What is wrong with that? As long as I am earning it you shouldnt have to worry about it. And please, since my crystal ball is in the other room tell me how, why and most importantly WHEN the system will collapse?

Because, if you don't spend your money, you won't be able to earn any more of it, for no one can pay you a salary. The problem is that your ressources are not infinite, so, sooner or later, you won't be able to fulfill the market's needs concerning production and trade: this system will fail eventually. And then?

Under a socialist society, resources are still not infinite so in theory wouldnt socialism also fail eventually? And let me remind you, there is much more than natural resources that are bought and sold. And if you assume that everybody will stop WANTING anything, then money wont be spent, so you are relying on people not wanting to consume anything for it to crash?

[Duck Sauce]

SoNowThen, you are my new best friend

[thooor]

Hm....white overclass....what do you guys know about being poor?  

[(kelvin)]

Duck Sauce, nice joke about the crystal ball. But I certainly don't want to present myself as a prophet. When capitalism will collapse is irrelevant. My point was that it eventually will do so, definitely.
In a purely communist society (which is, of course, an ideal), goods are only produced because they are needed, because they have to be consumed. In a capitalistic society, you always have to produce and consume more than you need. Production always has to rise, otherwise you can't make any money, because you will only receive what you spent. You see the self-destructive logic in this system?
If you don't produce more tomorrow than you did today, your system will fail. Now, isn't it somehow obvious that there has to a limit where you just cannot produce more? Where you cannot consume more?
And I think we are indeed very near this point where the markets are just so oversaturated that this system will eventually show its ugly, selfish and short-sighted face.

[Duck Sauce]

Duck Sauce, nice joke about the crystal ball. But I certainly don't want to present myself as a prophet. When capitalism will collapse is irrelevant. My point was that it eventually will do so, definitely.
In a purely communist society (which is, of course, an ideal), goods are only produced because they are needed, because they have to be consumed. In a capitalistic society, you always have to produce and consume more than you need. Production always has to to rise, otherwise you can't make any money, because you will only receive what you spent. You see the self-destructive logic in this system?

No I dont. If resources are consumed, there will be a market to recreate those resources or come up with a supplement resource because money can be made, hence incentive. You dont always have to produce or consume more than you need. Money can be made without production rising as long as expenses dont exceed revenue.

And I think we are indeed very near this point where the markets are just so oversaturated that this system will eventually show its ugly, selfish and short-sighted face.

Why are we at that point? Use examples to support your ideas. People should be allowed to consume what they want, there should be no quotas on that. If they want to consume X amount of something, then somebody should be allowed to provide X amount of it. If a resource begins to become scarce, then less of it will be produced and the price will rise and less people will buy it. I dont think you understand capitalism. And what is wrong with being selfish?

Also, about socialism, you think its fair for one person to do more work than another and receive equal amount of reward for it? Why? So say, in this socialistic society, I just decide, you know what, fuck it. I AM NOT GOING TO DO ANYTHING, THERE IS NO REASON TO, then what happens?

[SoNowThen]

Hm....white overclass....what do you guys know about being poor?  

"White", huh. Classic. Get down on the white man, we're so evil.

ANd if we're gonna play that game, whadda you know about being filthy rich? Saying the whole "walk in somebody else's shoes" bit doesn't mean a thing, 'cause each individual has his own problems. No one's life is all roses, not rich, poor, black, white.... we all have our own shitty personal problems. The poor no more than the rich. It's just that the poor's might be less complicated... maybe... I'll give you that. But there's no shame in being "poor". You might have a great family, just enough to eat, working hard to make ends meet with no destractions, while some idle rich ass has no one, trusts no one, everyone's out to rip him off, and he has so much time on his hands he's going insane. All this well-being stuff is what YOU wanna make of it. Sorry to sound Tony Robbins-ie, but it's kinda true.

[thooor]

Hm....white overclass....what do you guys know about being poor?  

"White", huh. Classic. Get down on the white man, we're so evil.

ANd if we're gonna play that game, whadda you know about being filthy rich? Saying the whole "walk in somebody else's shoes" bit doesn't mean a thing, 'cause each individual has his own problems. No one's life is all roses, not rich, poor, black, white.... we all have our own shitty personal problems. The poor no more than the rich. It's just that the poor's might be less complicated... maybe... I'll give you that. But there's no shame in being "poor". You might have a great family, just enough to eat, working hard to make ends meet with no destractions, while some idle rich ass has no one, trusts no one, everyone's out to rip him off, and he has so much time on his hands he's going insane. All this well-being stuff is what YOU wanna make of it. Sorry to sound Tony Robbins-ie, but it's kinda true.

So what your basically saying is "FUCK THE POOR!".

[Jeremy Blackman]

All this bigoted idividualism is making me sick...

I'll say one thing. I don't think you understand what the phrase "equal opportunity" actually translates to in the capitalist system.

Try being born into poverty, and see how equal your opportunities are to a white suburban kid.

Someone always loses in a competition.

[(kelvin)]

@ Duck Sauce:

The last point you referred to is the essential problem of the communist (and NOT socialist) system: people are selfish. You are the best proof for this.

You have to look at the system as a whole. The whole system has to produce more tomorrow than it did today. That is a fact. I was not talking about you personally spending and earning money.
And I was not talking about a specifical resource, but I was talking about resources in general. Just think of those that cannot be renewed (for example fossile fuels).

I indeed do think that we are near a point where production cannot be rised anymore. You see, a computer or a machine can accomplish most of the productive working processes faster, better and cheaper than every human being. A lot of people have lost and will lose their jobs because of this. Today, a company needs less employees to be more effective than even a few years ago. People without a job don't earn money, don't spend anything, the companies don't receive anything for hardly anyone can afford their products, they can't produce anymore, there are no more goods available. That is a very simplistic example, but it catches the idea behind my hypothesis.

Anyway, I don't think we can arrange ourselves with this problem, there is too much ideology behind it. You will never understand me and I will never understand you. It's sad somehow.