Author Topic: Michael Moore  (Read 16406 times)

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Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Michael Moore
« Reply #90 on: May 06, 2011, 08:14:47 PM »
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Why would you laugh me out the room for that? I simply stated they're both awful human beings. What's so wrong about that?

I think it's absurd to put them in the same category. Bin Laden didn't begin to approach the crimes of Hitler, in scope or scale, and the threat Hitler posed was so much larger that it's not even worth comparing.

If your category is "awful human beings," your list of exceptions to moral conduct just grew a little beyond two.

And even if your category is number of civillians killed, this list is still going to require several pages.

Point is, where do you stop?

E: Including the original post:

But in rare cases, ala Osama and, I don't know, I guess Hitler, there isn't any doubt these are vile awful people who, as long as they're living, this world is worse off. I was even happy Saddam was caught alive. That dude was just some dumb dolt. Nobody took him seriously, but with Osama and Hitler, yeah, take them out. Not worth letting human beings like that live.
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Stefen

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Re: Michael Moore
« Reply #91 on: May 06, 2011, 08:19:33 PM »
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Nope. Just Hitler and OBL. Those are the only two people I can support just killing instead of trying to try in a court of law. Couldn't really justify it for anyone else. Maybe a couple filmmakers if I debated it really hard.
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Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Michael Moore
« Reply #92 on: May 06, 2011, 08:22:11 PM »
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Again... Your criteria for putting OBL on this list are what?
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Pozer

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Re: Michael Moore
« Reply #93 on: May 06, 2011, 09:11:37 PM »
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just stop.

Pas

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Re: Michael Moore
« Reply #94 on: May 06, 2011, 09:15:17 PM »
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Bin Laden is an evil type of man, just like Hitler and about 10 000 other people a year who get trials. The guy who rapes and kills little 5 year old girls for fun is WAY MORE evil than Bin Laden can ever be.

I'm a total neo-con, but I understand that 9/11 was an act of war. Not an act directed at being evil for evil sakes (unlike the killer rapists).

My point is that if PURE evil people get trials, then anyone should get them. I do know that he is guilty and I do know that the ultimate outcome is his execution, but you just can't make exceptions. Where does it end? If you open that pandora's box, who's gonna close it.

((((((side point: Stefen, your OBL/Hitler list is silly! Pol Pot, Mao, and so many more have killed sooooooo much more people. If you open a list, it's gonna be LONG))))))

md

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Re: Michael Moore
« Reply #95 on: May 06, 2011, 09:29:04 PM »
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this was necessary...

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pete

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Re: Michael Moore
« Reply #96 on: May 06, 2011, 09:56:39 PM »
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Bin Laden is an evil type of man, just like Hitler and about 10 000 other people a year who get trials.

Hitler got a trial?
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Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Michael Moore
« Reply #97 on: May 06, 2011, 09:58:32 PM »
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I'm a total neo-con, but...

In this thread: I agree with a neo-con.

*high five*
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Pas

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Re: Michael Moore
« Reply #98 on: May 06, 2011, 10:41:28 PM »
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I'm a total neo-con, but...

In this thread: I agree with a neo-con.

*high five*

haha as long as we don't go into taxation territory we should be fine  :yabbse-thumbup:

Bin Laden is an evil type of man, just like Hitler and about 10 000 other people a year who get trials.

Hitler got a trial?

He commited suicide. But for all his friends, have you heard of Nuremberg?

pete

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Re: Michael Moore
« Reply #99 on: May 07, 2011, 04:02:38 AM »
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so Bin Laden was executed, but his friends are tried the same way, and you were making a specific reference to Hitler by the way. have you read your own quote?
“Tragedy is a close-up; comedy, a long shot.”
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Pas

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Re: Michael Moore
« Reply #100 on: May 07, 2011, 07:53:56 AM »
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so Bin Laden was executed, but his friends are tried the same way, and you were making a specific reference to Hitler by the way. have you read your own quote?

i was making a reference to hitler per stefen's post.

If you think I don't know Hitler killed himself than you are an imbecile.

Thread killed.

Pubrick

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Re: Michael Moore
« Reply #101 on: May 07, 2011, 10:13:23 AM »
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pete you misread his sentence..

he wasn't saying hitler was one of the 10 thousand evil people WHO GET TRIALS.. he was just grouping him with the evil people part of the sentence. i didn't misread it your way but i can see the ambiguous aspect. never the less i think it's pretty easy to see the alternative (the way he meant it) and assume he meant it the way that makes sense.

sorry to ruin pas' "thread killed" statement but i am kind of amazed how after so much smart discussions little things like ambiguous sentence structure can derail lucidity. and maybe it's worth noting that this fatal linguistic incident took place between two people for whom english is a second language (a handicap referenced already by pete in a previous misunderstanding) and with this post being dragged out now by another ESL speaker.

anyway, JB.. you also failed to understand Stefen on a very basic and obvious level: he simply ignored the point you made, and which pas subsequently expanded, because he's just not putting as much thought into it as you are. that's all it is. you should have realised that after he completely ignored you and then you could have concluded logically as so: "well it appears you are not putting as much thought into it as i am which is not to say your opinion is invalid but that you have a less refined idea of what constitutes evil.. "

i think stefen obviously understands the difference between OBL and Hitler in that they share almost no characteristics in common other than their boundless hatred/fear, both projected and received, but that for stefen the ultimate litmus test for judging what occurred is emotional and not rational. that's a totally valid method by which to judge things and is absolutely the level at which some POLITICAL decisions are made.

i don't think trying to be logical and rational insulates you from basic human flaws such as the need to compromise on a personal opinon. because it is not acceptable in our world to NOT have an opinion and be completely impartial.. apart from being paradoxical it is mostly impractical. a truly objective position would let every thing be, while the wills of the world swirl around them through flimsy and tyrannical torrents.

i prescribe to everyone the following week-long regimen: one dose of the FMJ sniper sequence to be taken visually and aurally once a day for six days, followed by one FULL dose of EWS to be taken just once on the final day.
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Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Michael Moore
« Reply #102 on: May 07, 2011, 10:55:56 AM »
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I realized Stefen was coming at it from an emotional angle, and I was mostly just trying to point that out without actually saying it.

I think that is a valid personal perspective, but only insofar as it remains personal. The problem, as I saw it, is that it was prescriptive:

Yeah, upholding laws is important, but I think in rare extreme cases, i.e. ONLY THIS ONE, laws can be broken.

A totally valid emotional position, and one I completely understand, given the pop culture positions of Hitler and Bin Laden. But when you start advocating this as policy, it becomes a problem, because it sends us down a path that should be avoided.

Also, this is not about stark rationality at the expense of everything else. There are many reasons besides rationality and logic to be against vigilantism and extrajudicial killings.

for stefen the ultimate litmus test for judging what occurred is emotional and not rational. that's a totally valid method by which to judge things and is absolutely the level at which some POLITICAL decisions are made.

Right, but that's often a problem, don't you think?

I actually do think it's valid to use emotions to make decisions. In fact I think the best decisions I've made have been based on instinct or emotion.

But it really depends which emotions you're using. If you're using hatred or fear (especially true in this case?) to make decisions, that is probably not a good thing.

You said that some political decisions are made on this level, but I would actually turn that on its head... More often, politics exploits the emotions of the public as a way to carry out decisions.
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Stefen

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Re: Michael Moore
« Reply #103 on: May 07, 2011, 01:01:59 PM »
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i think stefen obviously understands the difference between OBL and Hitler in that they share almost no characteristics in common other than their boundless hatred/fear, both projected and received, but that for stefen the ultimate litmus test for judging what occurred is emotional and not rational.

Yeah, pretty much. I don't think OBL is even close to as bad as Hitler, but he's hanging out on the same planet, and the only person I could think of in comparison, especially with how he was pretty much running a whole terrorist organization from his flop house. They brainwash people into doing very bad things. You have them alive and they're just going to continue to brain wash people, only in front of a court of law, which may be even more empowering. Who knows? It's not worth the risk in my opinion, which comes directly from personal emotions and not from spending all my free time listening to left or right leaning podcasts and reading Mike Moores Twitter.

It's not that important to me, really. OBL's execution is old news already. The news I care about now is Cannes 2011, can Pacquiao finish Shane Mosley this weekend? Is Tyler, The Creators new album too grim or am I just getting old? Even being up 3-0, will the Dallas Mavericks still choke against the LA Lakers?


i prescribe to everyone the following week-long regimen: one dose of the FMJ sniper sequence to be taken visually and aurally once a day for six days, followed by one FULL dose of EWS to be taken just once on the final day.

The sniper part doesn't come in the second half does it? Cause I heard the second half of this movie is boring.  8)  :waving:
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socketlevel

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Re: Michael Moore
« Reply #104 on: May 08, 2011, 03:38:39 PM »
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No, not at all. I can put my bleeding heart and liberal ideals aside when it comes to Osama Bin Laden. Like I said, he's the only one I could do this for.


I think the general sentiment opposed to this is that if one strongly believes in upholding laws when given the option you always put a man on trial, because terrorists win when your judicial system is broken down and actions are made based on emotion. Because really that's what the other side is doing, so it is sinking to their level. When you have strong beliefs, you must apply them in all circumstances because an emotionally invested judge/jury/executioner is not a sober minded one.  This is why laws were invented. So why make an exception to your philosophy stefen?

Sorry, missed this.

Yeah, upholding laws is important, but I think in rare extreme cases, i.e. ONLY THIS ONE, laws can be broken.

Take that guy alive and all that happens is his court cases get drawn out for years. He's always in the news and always being brought up and he's always in the public consciousness. Just not worth it. Give him one between the eyes and fuggedaboutit.

Laws mean little when it comes to dangerous dangerous people that are screwing up this world we all live in. The only problem is with most dangerous men, there's always some objectivity to how dangerous they are. Sympathizers, etc. But in rare cases, ala Osama and, I don't know, I guess Hitler, there isn't any doubt these are vile awful people who, as long as they're living, this world is worse off. I was even happy Saddam was caught alive. That dude was just some dumb dolt. Nobody took him seriously, but with Osama and Hitler, yeah, take them out. Not worth letting human beings like that live.

years or not, it's what's right. sadam's trial didn't take too long either if that's any indication of the length, not that it should matter.

if a fair trial takes a long time, it's well worth it.
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