Author Topic: Michael Moore  (Read 16418 times)

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Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Michael Moore
« Reply #75 on: May 06, 2011, 03:22:32 PM »
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I think the general sentiment opposed to this is that if one strongly believes in upholding laws when given the option you always put a man on trial, because terrorists win when your judicial system is broken down and actions are made based on emotion. Because really that's what the other side is doing, so it is sinking to their level. When you have strong beliefs, you must apply them in all circumstances because an emotionally invested judge/jury/executioner is not a sober minded one.  This is why laws were invented. So why make an exception to your philosophy stefen?

Yeah, this is still a really good point. It's sort of like freedom of speech.

"If we do not believe in freedom of speech for those we despise, we do not believe in it at all."
- Chomsky

Also, I think part of the reason we tend to think in these terms--that of course we should make an exception with Bin Laden--is that he's been turned into a complete cartoon villain, mostly by the Bush administration. Why continue to play along?

Just to complicate this further, I'm not sure we actually want to go down this rabbit hole, but there is very little evidence actually connecting Bin Laden with 9/11. No one, including the FBI, has been able to find or provide any real evidence. In interviews he has denied responsibility, in some tapes he has also denied responsibility, and in some other tapes he takes or implies responsibility. Throw in the fact that the authenticity of nearly all the tapes is very much in doubt (not the interviews, but the tapes), and you don't have any actually reliable evidence.

Do you remember what was happening in the media on the day of 9/11/2001? A narrative emerged almost instantly within just a few hours, with no evidence and no basis in reality whatsoever, that Osama Bin Laden was probably responsible for the attack. "Probably" soon became "very likely," which eventually became "definitely."

Depending on your point of view, a trial would have cleared up the doubts about Bin Laden's complicity, or revealed the truth.
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socketlevel

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Re: Michael Moore
« Reply #76 on: May 06, 2011, 03:42:40 PM »
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exactly, and there is no wrong reason to go down that rabbit hole. The truth is paramount, regardless how unappealing.

It's funny when i was writing that post i thought of chompsky and how he says in the manufacturing concent documentary that one of the only thing he regrets is trying to get that neo nazi to remove one of his statements from his book. I can't remember the specifics but my memory tells me it was a holocaust denial book, and regardless how stupid that is, freedom of speech is paramount. Chompsky's quote was about freedom of speech and it was not taken out of context. I was really proud of chompsky coming to that realization, you make statements regarding freedom not for your own side, but for everyone's point of view.
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Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Michael Moore
« Reply #77 on: May 06, 2011, 03:52:33 PM »
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I agree with all of that. And I do like rabbit holes... just wasn't sure we wanted to go down one in this thread.
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Sleepless

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Re: Michael Moore
« Reply #78 on: May 06, 2011, 03:53:13 PM »
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Time to weigh in with my own irrelevant opinion... I don't believe in capital punishment. The scenes of frat boys celebrating Osama's death makes me really uncomfortable. Someone pointed out it was reminiscent of the al Qaeda supports celebrating after 9/11. Nuff said. But I do think there really wasn't any alternative to just going in there and executing him like they did. First of all, let's abandon all this eye for an eye justice talk. I guess that's what Reinhold means by him being a military enemy. The threat that he posed, in addition to his previous actions, justifies in some sense the need for him to be eliminated as a threat. For his death to be cited as "justice" in any sort of legal or moral sense doesn't really make sense. But what happened is for the best, I believe. Imagine there was any trial. Where would that happen? Imagine the media circus, it would be a ridiculous parody of a trial no matter what your perspective was. And then what? I agree with JB that Bin Laden did become in effect a cartoon villain, but the collective perception crossed that line and was never going to came back. I don't think anyone is arguing that his "threat" or whatever being removed is a bad thing, just the circumstances surrounding it. While on a philosophical level the event contradicts my sense of what is right, I think what happened was probably for the best. Let's just draw a line under it and start worrying about Pakistan having a Libya-style uprising. They have nukes, after all.

Stefen

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Re: Michael Moore
« Reply #79 on: May 06, 2011, 04:05:22 PM »
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^excellent post, Sleepless. I agree.
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Reinhold

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Re: Michael Moore
« Reply #80 on: May 06, 2011, 05:05:45 PM »
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You make a lot of really good points, jb. Even as I'm writing some of this stuff I'm thinking "c'mon Andrew, this is mostly based on emotion..." it is very complicated. As walrus can tell you I used to be a completely mindless republican and I guess some of that lingers though I'm left of ghandi on a lot of topics.

The trial thing, though... What good could have come of it? I see it only as a propaganda platform for both sides-- truth being the least likely thing to emerge. There's no way he'd plead not guilty or dignify the court with a guilty plea. He'd inevitably wind up just as dead, but with a huge media circus beforehand that would echo indefinitely in in extremist circles on all sides. Given my views of him (clearly guilty as sin) and al qaeda (army), I have a hard time seeing what's unjust about just shooting him. That is justice for a man whose existence itself is a threat... I feel that the sooner he's dead, the sooner justice is served.  I haven't looked into the question of bin laden's involvement though-- I bought the media line. I also (and I'm sure I'll be lambasted for this) trust Obama. I really don't think we were misled about this guy or his intent to kill as many Americans as he can. That's where I'm coming from.
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Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Michael Moore
« Reply #81 on: May 06, 2011, 05:54:29 PM »
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I'm not sure the threat of a media circus justifies violating our principles, if those are our principles.

But really, had there been a trial, I don't think an O.J. Simpson style affair would have been in the cards. Had he been tried in this country, it probably would have been a closed military tribunal, if this is any indication.

Also...

Aren't infamous evildoers supposed to have an escape route, like some secret door they can slip through? It's just odd, and pretty stupid on Bin Laden's part, that he put himself in a position where he could be cornered in a room. Also strange that he stayed in the same place for so long...
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polkablues

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Re: Michael Moore
« Reply #82 on: May 06, 2011, 06:11:54 PM »
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Bin Laden basically just turned the United States into Brad Pitt at the end of Seven.
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pete

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Re: Michael Moore
« Reply #83 on: May 06, 2011, 06:48:34 PM »
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Aren't infamous evildoers supposed to have an escape route, like some secret door they can slip through? It's just odd, and pretty stupid on Bin Laden's part, that he put himself in a position where he could be cornered in a room. Also strange that he stayed in the same place for so long...

by the time fugitives are caught, they're usually pretty down and out and sloppy, with most of their resources gone and most of their allies taken down.
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Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Michael Moore
« Reply #84 on: May 06, 2011, 07:01:26 PM »
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Good point, and I'm sure they had a perimeter set up, so it's not like he could have gone running down the street.

Unless he had constructed a network of underground tunnels...
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Mr. Merrill Lehrl

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Re: Michael Moore
« Reply #85 on: May 06, 2011, 07:39:39 PM »
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Unless he had constructed a network of underground tunnels...
Or something...
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Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Michael Moore
« Reply #86 on: May 06, 2011, 07:59:32 PM »
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Perfect!

Or...

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Stefen

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Re: Michael Moore
« Reply #87 on: May 06, 2011, 08:00:53 PM »
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No, not at all. I can put my bleeding heart and liberal ideals aside when it comes to Osama Bin Laden. Like I said, he's the only one I could do this for.


I think the general sentiment opposed to this is that if one strongly believes in upholding laws when given the option you always put a man on trial, because terrorists win when your judicial system is broken down and actions are made based on emotion. Because really that's what the other side is doing, so it is sinking to their level. When you have strong beliefs, you must apply them in all circumstances because an emotionally invested judge/jury/executioner is not a sober minded one.  This is why laws were invented. So why make an exception to your philosophy stefen?

Sorry, missed this.

Yeah, upholding laws is important, but I think in rare extreme cases, i.e. ONLY THIS ONE, laws can be broken.

Take that guy alive and all that happens is his court cases get drawn out for years. He's always in the news and always being brought up and he's always in the public consciousness. Just not worth it. Give him one between the eyes and fuggedaboutit.

Laws mean little when it comes to dangerous dangerous people that are screwing up this world we all live in. The only problem is with most dangerous men, there's always some objectivity to how dangerous they are. Sympathizers, etc. But in rare cases, ala Osama and, I don't know, I guess Hitler, there isn't any doubt these are vile awful people who, as long as they're living, this world is worse off. I was even happy Saddam was caught alive. That dude was just some dumb dolt. Nobody took him seriously, but with Osama and Hitler, yeah, take them out. Not worth letting human beings like that live.
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Jeremy Blackman

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Re: Michael Moore
« Reply #88 on: May 06, 2011, 08:05:13 PM »
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It really does speak to the cartoon villain status of Bin Laden that someone (Stefen in this case, sorry) can compare him to Hitler without being laughed out of the room.
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Stefen

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Re: Michael Moore
« Reply #89 on: May 06, 2011, 08:06:44 PM »
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Why would you laugh me out the room for that? I simply stated they're both awful human beings. What's so wrong about that?
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